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cloudboy -> Public Safety (1/28/2013 8:52:41 AM)
The US is one of the only countries in the world that spends more on prisons and incarceration than it does on its police force. Needless to say, this is fucked up. “The United States today is the only country I know of that spends more on prisons than police,” said Lawrence W. Sherman, an American criminologist on the faculties of the University of Maryland and Cambridge University in Britain. “In England and Wales, the spending on police is twice as high as on corrections. In Australia it’s more than three times higher. In Japan it’s seven times higher. Only in the United States is it lower, and only in our recent history.”

Fellow -> RE: Public Safety (1/28/2013 10:30:15 AM)
The question is not logically correctly presented. Give us absolute numbers. Does the US spend on police (per capita) less than other countries do? I do not think so. The US is one of the most advanced police states in the world. Prisons are to a great extent different matter. Police does not put people in prison. Court system and laws are the major factor here.

DesideriScuri -> RE: Public Safety (1/28/2013 10:41:38 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Fellow The question is not logically correctly presented. Give us absolute numbers. Does the US spend on police (per capita) less than other countries do? I do not think so. The US is one of the most advanced police states in the world. Prisons are to a great extent different matter. Police does not put people in prison. Court system and laws are the major factor here. I might actually make a tongue-in-cheek supporting argument for it, though not supporting the intent of the article. According to the article: quote: Before the era of mass incarceration began in the 1980s, local policing accounted for more than 40 percent of spending for criminal justice, while 25 percent went to prisons and parole programs. But since 1990, nearly 35 percent has gone to the prison system, while the portion of criminal justice spending for local policing has fallen to slightly more than 30 percent. We can conclude some things from this. We are nabbing more criminals, reducing our spending requirement of the police forces, or our police forces have become that much more efficient that we can spend a lot less while still increasing the population of the incarcerated. Either way, we're still spending 65% of our criminal justice spending on prisons and local policing.

cloudboy -> RE: Public Safety (1/29/2013 6:34:34 AM)
The thesis is that we are spending more for incarceration than for policing. Longer sentences for crimes are expensive and the opportunity cost in public safety is less police on the street. Longer sentences for crimes do not act as a criminal deterrent like a police presence does.

jlf1961 -> RE: Public Safety (1/29/2013 7:44:20 AM)
On the question of public safety, yes criminals need to be dealt with, but may I also point out there are Americans with driver's licenses that should not be allowed to ride a fucking bicycle let alone drive a car. Sunday, I was going down South 1st, the main drag on the south side of the tracks, was about 100 feet from an intersection, had the green light, in the middle lane, and some brilliant moron turned in front of me, into my lane and then proceeded to continue on his way below the speed limit. I was traveling west, but after locking up the brakes to avoid hitting the bastard, I had a great view facing North North west and the car behind me was in the ditch. If we are going to discuss public safety, lets discuss all aspects of the problem. FYI, considering the number of accidents so far this year, I am beginning to believe the only safe vehicle to drive in this town is an Military armored car, with at least an inch of armor plate. Other wise I am beginning to consider the sarcastic calls to ban personal vehicles to prevent accidents and drunk driving.

DesideriScuri -> RE: Public Safety (1/29/2013 8:11:06 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: cloudboy The thesis is that we are spending more for incarceration than for policing. Longer sentences for crimes are expensive and the opportunity cost in public safety is less police on the street. Longer sentences for crimes do not act as a criminal deterrent like a police presence does. Even though our %-ages have changed within the category, the two still combine for 65% of our criminal justice spend.

muhly22222 -> RE: Public Safety (1/29/2013 8:31:25 AM)
I do believe we are over-criminalized, by which I mean that it's virtually impossible to not break a law, no matter how hard you try. I also believe that many sentences are far too long. Of course, I'm a criminal defense attorney, so I might be a little biased in that view. What that statistic proves, though, I'm unsure. It's like the statistics people cite about the percentages of minorities in prison, and how they prove that the criminal justice system is racist. It might be, but those statistics might also show that police departments have eliminated a lot of the racism in their policies, since they're actually responding to and investigating minority-on-minority crime. Sentences are a deterrent. Police presence is a deterrent. True rehabilitation is the best way to ensure that crime goes down, and prison is not good for that. It can also be more expensive, and it's always less popular politically.

EsotericLady -> RE: Public Safety (1/29/2013 8:57:40 AM)
You'll have to excuse me for not being as "politically correct" as the majority of you are by quoting exact statistics. And if you choose not to believe or agree with my comments, that's fine. There are police forces in this country (the U.S.A.) that have actually been reduced in numbers due to lack of funding. There are smaller towns with no police force whatsoever... not even one or two officers. How many times do we read where someone is sentenced to 15 years in prison, then serves less than half of that time? Often. The death penalty is not as prevalent as it once was either. And finally, PEOPLE disobeying laws put THEMSELVES in prison by their actions. (Thank you) quote: ORIGINAL: Fellow The question is not logically correctly presented. Give us absolute numbers. Does the US spend on police (per capita) less than other countries do? I do not think so. The US is one of the most advanced police states in the world. Prisons are to a great extent different matter. Police does not put people in prison. Court system and laws are the major factor here.

LizDeluxe -> RE: Public Safety (1/29/2013 9:11:34 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: muhly22222 I do believe we are over-criminalized, by which I mean that it's virtually impossible to not break a law, no matter how hard you try. Yet apparently it is not very difficult to avoid incarceration as a vast majority of our population have done just that.

Hillwilliam -> RE: Public Safety (1/29/2013 9:11:46 AM)
I think that one problem is that a lot of our corrections system is privatized and for-profit. This in and of itself isn't a huge problem until you see who has a vested financial interest in the system. A lot of these people are either judges or close family members. I have no idea why this is legal but it apparently is.

thishereboi -> RE: Public Safety (1/29/2013 11:15:12 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: muhly22222 I do believe we are over-criminalized, by which I mean that it's virtually impossible to not break a law, no matter how hard you try. I also believe that many sentences are far too long. Of course, I'm a criminal defense attorney, so I might be a little biased in that view. What that statistic proves, though, I'm unsure. It's like the statistics people cite about the percentages of minorities in prison, and how they prove that the criminal justice system is racist. It might be, but those statistics might also show that police departments have eliminated a lot of the racism in their policies, since they're actually responding to and investigating minority-on-minority crime. Sentences are a deterrent. Police presence is a deterrent. True rehabilitation is the best way to ensure that crime goes down, and prison is not good for that. It can also be more expensive, and it's always less popular politically. If by breaking the law you are including anyone who goes 5 miles over the speed limit, doesn't come to a full stop at the stop sign or breaks some archaic law from the early 1900's that has never been enforced then yes, it is virtually impossible to not break the law. If you are talking about stealing, breaking into buildings, vandalism, murder or any of the things people generally think about when talking about crimes, it's really not that hard.

Powergamz1 -> RE: Public Safety (1/29/2013 5:18:27 PM)
Don't see where you've drawn a conclusion from your comments to agree or disagree with. The number of sworn LEOs has gone down a bit recently due in some part to a bubble of retirement. There are areas that are underpatrolled, such as unincorporated villages, etc. but those still fall under state and county jurisdiction. The decline in officers plus a perceived decline in crime rates, would lead us to expect some adjustment in prison rates, since doing a crime and getting caught are fairly critical steps to ending up in jail. And yet we have an increase, which makes the US an anomaly in imprisoment stats. Remember that early release doesn't always mean that the person simply goes their merry way. Add in probation and parole, and the current number of people under control of the corrections system is almost 7 million, and that's just the adults. quote: ORIGINAL: EsotericLady You'll have to excuse me for not being as "politically correct" as the majority of you are by quoting exact statistics. And if you choose not to believe or agree with my comments, that's fine. There are police forces in this country (the U.S.A.) that have actually been reduced in numbers due to lack of funding. There are smaller towns with no police force whatsoever... not even one or two officers. How many times do we read where someone is sentenced to 15 years in prison, then serves less than half of that time? Often. The death penalty is not as prevalent as it once was either. And finally, PEOPLE disobeying laws put THEMSELVES in prison by their actions. (Thank you) quote: ORIGINAL: Fellow The question is not logically correctly presented. Give us absolute numbers. Does the US spend on police (per capita) less than other countries do? I do not think so. The US is one of the most advanced police states in the world. Prisons are to a great extent different matter. Police does not put people in prison. Court system and laws are the major factor here.

EsotericLady -> RE: Public Safety (1/29/2013 6:14:35 PM)
Thanks for commenting on my post! : ) As to your first comment, my conclusion is based on reactions I have observed in this particular area of the forum...and was therefore attempting to cover my bases! LOL As to the third, yes, they fall under state and county jurisdiction, however they are not just UNDERpatrolled... they are lucky if the sheriff drives through twice a week. And sure there are things like parole and probation. However that is much different than being strictly under lock and key. I enjoyed reading your comments, though. quote: ORIGINAL: Powergamz1 Don't see where you've drawn a conclusion from your comments to agree or disagree with. The number of sworn LEOs has gone down a bit recently due in some part to a bubble of retirement. There are areas that are underpatrolled, such as unincorporated villages, etc. but those still fall under state and county jurisdiction. The decline in officers plus a perceived decline in crime rates, would lead us to expect some adjustment in prison rates, since doing a crime and getting caught are fairly critical steps to ending up in jail. And yet we have an increase, which makes the US an anomaly in imprisoment stats. Remember that early release doesn't always mean that the person simply goes their merry way. Add in probation and parole, and the current number of people under control of the corrections system is almost 7 million, and that's just the adults. quote: ORIGINAL: EsotericLady You'll have to excuse me for not being as "politically correct" as the majority of you are by quoting exact statistics. And if you choose not to believe or agree with my comments, that's fine. There are police forces in this country (the U.S.A.) that have actually been reduced in numbers due to lack of funding. There are smaller towns with no police force whatsoever... not even one or two officers. How many times do we read where someone is sentenced to 15 years in prison, then serves less than half of that time? Often. The death penalty is not as prevalent as it once was either. And finally, PEOPLE disobeying laws put THEMSELVES in prison by their actions. (Thank you) quote: ORIGINAL: Fellow The question is not logically correctly presented. Give us absolute numbers. Does the US spend on police (per capita) less than other countries do? I do not think so. The US is one of the most advanced police states in the world. Prisons are to a great extent different matter. Police does not put people in prison. Court system and laws are the major factor here.

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