RE: Immigration Reform

RE: Immigration Reform (Full Version)

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[Poll]

Immigration Reform

Make a way for them to stay

40% (18)

Don't reward breaking the law, they should be sent home

55% (25)

no habla ingles, asshat

4% (2)

Total Votes : 45

(last vote on : 2/6/2013 2:29:02 AM)
(Poll will run till: -- )

Message

tj444 -> RE: Immigration Reform (1/30/2013 7:47:48 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MrRodgers [We] want them to pick our fruits, clean our houses, do our laundry, cut our grass, fix our cars, dig our ditches and just about anything else we can think of and ideally...not pay them anything. Grudgingly, they must be paid just enough to inspire them to come back the next day. Don't we just hate going to HR to ask that they round up a few more undocumented slaves. As for their contributions to society, who gives a flying fuck ? Again, ideally out of that $3 - $4/hr. I might have to pay, (hopefully, undocumented cash) or whatever...in check form, well aren't they all on 1099 ? Recently I needed someone with a truck to help me move some of my stuff into a storage locker.. I put an ad in craigslist.. I settled on one guy for $50.. he was a young white American guy.. I sorta doubt he will be declaring the 50 on his taxes either.. and the work took only 45 minutes so imo he did get paid well.. so there are lots of Americans also getting paid cash and not declaring that income.. and I expect the same thing with Americans on 1099.. its not just Hispanics doing those things, they are just an easier target..

meomymaid -> RE: Immigration Reform (1/30/2013 8:02:51 AM)
Funny discussion that misses the point. What please is a reform? If all that matters in this context is to get rid of undocumented workers, then this is hardly a reform of immigratioin policies. Whatever rules applied to become legal, doesn't change the root of the problem one bit. This has been done before and nothing has changed. Unless the US looks into how to avoid illegal immigration, by either offereing access to visas or stregthen our borders, this is not a reform. I for one am under current conditions far more interested in cutting down on H1 visas. We have so many unemployed and companies tell us they can't get qualified americans? Now if that isn't wrong, I don't know. That doesn't even require an act of Congress. Instead of beating up all the poor Mexicans, we should start looking elsewhere. Places like companies that massively employ foreigners with a rate exceeding far more than 50% of their workforce. Anyone can go to http://www.myvisajobs.com and check on the companies and see how many H1 visas they sponsor. All those jobs are lost to americans. Those are by law well paid jobs. That's where the problem is. Not the Mexicans doing yard work.

jlf1961 -> RE: Immigration Reform (1/30/2013 8:31:55 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: meomymaid Funny discussion that misses the point. What please is a reform? If all that matters in this context is to get rid of undocumented workers, then this is hardly a reform of immigratioin policies. Whatever rules applied to become legal, doesn't change the root of the problem one bit. This has been done before and nothing has changed. Unless the US looks into how to avoid illegal immigration, by either offereing access to visas or stregthen our borders, this is not a reform. I for one am under current conditions far more interested in cutting down on H1 visas. We have so many unemployed and companies tell us they can't get qualified americans? Now if that isn't wrong, I don't know. That doesn't even require an act of Congress. Instead of beating up all the poor Mexicans, we should start looking elsewhere. Places like companies that massively employ foreigners with a rate exceeding far more than 50% of their workforce. Anyone can go to http://www.myvisajobs.com and check on the companies and see how many H1 visas they sponsor. All those jobs are lost to americans. Those are by law well paid jobs. That's where the problem is. Not the Mexicans doing yard work. Good point, but I would add that in some fields, Employers tend to recruit the best talent, and if that talent is not American, then fine.

meomymaid -> RE: Immigration Reform (1/30/2013 8:44:39 AM)
Never let exceptions be the rule. We have enough college kids that don't find jobs. The problem is in many cases not the final employer (as in a well established company in the area of research or manufacturing), but the entire consulting industry. Just look at Apple right now. They have a 3rd party vendor supplying them with consultancy services and that company has sponsored more than 10.000 H1 visas in the past two years. Are you telling me you can't find IT people in the Bay Area? Also, if memory serves me right. We do have migrat farm worker visas by now. We have eVerify (annoys the shit out of me as a citizen). Maybe the fines for companies employing illegals should be massively raised as part of this so called reform. Further, companies participating in visa fraud should be banned from conducting business in the US. What they currently do, is simply hiring an agency so they themselves don't sponsor visas.

DesideriScuri -> RE: Immigration Reform (1/30/2013 9:08:10 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomYngBlk No such thing as a libertarian thinker. For the most part what I see are right wingers that think cause they are for "freedom" rather than any deviation from the republican talking point. Like I said, you have yet to show what it means. So, what "republican talking points" do I completely agree with, that disqualify me from being a libertarian?

graceadieu -> RE: Immigration Reform (1/30/2013 9:12:57 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tj444 Recently I needed someone with a truck to help me move some of my stuff into a storage locker.. I put an ad in craigslist.. I settled on one guy for $50.. he was a young white American guy.. I sorta doubt he will be declaring the 50 on his taxes either.. and the work took only 45 minutes so imo he did get paid well.. so there are lots of Americans also getting paid cash and not declaring that income.. and I expect the same thing with Americans on 1099.. its not just Hispanics doing those things, they are just an easier target.. That's true, plenty of US citizens do at least side jobs for cash and don't report it. I think if you're making a lot of money and not paying taxes on it (or worse, using your lack of official income to claim food stamps etc), that's not right. But if you're making so little that wouldn't be paying taxes anyway (or it's just a little odd job now and then, like that guy) it's not that big a deal. I think most people that are migrant farm laborers or dishwashers make so little money they wouldn't be paying anything but SS & Medicare anyway, and illegal immigrants don't tend to use a lot of government services because they're afraid of getting caught and deported.

MrRodgers -> RE: Immigration Reform (1/30/2013 9:31:55 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tj444 quote: ORIGINAL: MrRodgers [We] want them to pick our fruits, clean our houses, do our laundry, cut our grass, fix our cars, dig our ditches and just about anything else we can think of and ideally...not pay them anything. Grudgingly, they must be paid just enough to inspire them to come back the next day. Don't we just hate going to HR to ask that they round up a few more undocumented slaves. As for their contributions to society, who gives a flying fuck ? Again, ideally out of that $3 - $4/hr. I might have to pay, (hopefully, undocumented cash) or whatever...in check form, well aren't they all on 1099 ? Recently I needed someone with a truck to help me move some of my stuff into a storage locker.. I put an ad in craigslist.. I settled on one guy for $50.. he was a young white American guy.. I sorta doubt he will be declaring the 50 on his taxes either.. and the work took only 45 minutes so imo he did get paid well.. so there are lots of Americans also getting paid cash and not declaring that income.. and I expect the same thing with Americans on 1099.. its not just Hispanics doing those things, they are just an easier target.. I understand you and I didn't focus on our southern neighbors. They come because it is a land path from the south and central, north through Mexico. The US does seem to allow the entrance and residency of Euro/Asian immigrants and an easier path to legal status. Interesting how most of the Euro/Asian immigrants are coming 'documented ?' Withholding begins at $600 I think. Same with the payroll tax but I am not sure. However, it isn't the occasional day labor that inspires millions to immigrate. They come to be hired on and most send much of what they earn back home. The right wants temp. visas (documented) for agric., corps. businesses in general etc. while the left wants a legal path to documented residency/citizenship in a much more comprehensive and general sense. Many Americans do not want anymore people coming and taking any jobs and that's just not going to happen. My whole perspective on this, is that we will never see any real reform and a formal, bureaucratic legal path to say a green card let alone citizenship for any of our neighbors to the south..

MrRodgers -> RE: Immigration Reform (1/30/2013 9:34:39 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri quote: ORIGINAL: DomYngBlk No such thing as a libertarian thinker. For the most part what I see are right wingers that think cause they are for "freedom" rather than any deviation from the republican talking point. Like I said, you have yet to show what it means. So, what "republican talking points" do I completely agree with, that disqualify me from being a libertarian? Let's test your libertarianism...was Judge Bork unfairly denied a seat on the supreme court and if so...why ?

DesideriScuri -> RE: Immigration Reform (1/30/2013 9:38:37 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MrRodgers quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri quote: ORIGINAL: DomYngBlk No such thing as a libertarian thinker. For the most part what I see are right wingers that think cause they are for "freedom" rather than any deviation from the republican talking point. Like I said, you have yet to show what it means. So, what "republican talking points" do I completely agree with, that disqualify me from being a libertarian? Let's test your libertarianism...was Judge Bork unfairly denied a seat on the supreme court and if so...why ? No idea. How about something from after I was of voting age? Better yet, how about something from 2000?

meomymaid -> RE: Immigration Reform (1/30/2013 9:41:58 AM)
I would highly recomment studying the immigration Laws of the US before making assumptions. We do have migrant farm worker visas as something relatively new. Anything else (exception are spouses) requires a higher education. For sponsering a spouse, there is a min. income required. Exception to the rule are in the area of student, art and sport. Obtaining a visa legally is not easy, however, cheating is common practise. I was told by someone from India, that his application was denied, he obtained a new passport (with different name) and got a visa. Further, the Indian Government puts a lot of pressure on the US, although fraud has been prooven in many cases. Yet those companies are still permitted to conduct business in the US. All visas are by definition temp visas.

MrRodgers -> RE: Immigration Reform (1/30/2013 9:45:23 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri quote: ORIGINAL: MrRodgers quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri quote: ORIGINAL: DomYngBlk No such thing as a libertarian thinker. For the most part what I see are right wingers that think cause they are for "freedom" rather than any deviation from the republican talking point. Like I said, you have yet to show what it means. So, what "republican talking points" do I completely agree with, that disqualify me from being a libertarian? Let's test your libertarianism...was Judge Bork unfairly denied a seat on the supreme court and if so...why ? No idea. How about something from after I was of voting age? Better yet, how about something from 2000? Yea, just as I submitted I thought maybe too far back. Ok, let's take a stab, not to derail this OP but to me, the Libertarian does not support either the Patriot Act or the Homeland Security Act. Also more recently...the latest Def. Auth Act.

DesideriScuri -> RE: Immigration Reform (1/30/2013 9:50:04 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MrRodgers quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri quote: ORIGINAL: MrRodgers quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri quote: ORIGINAL: DomYngBlk No such thing as a libertarian thinker. For the most part what I see are right wingers that think cause they are for "freedom" rather than any deviation from the republican talking point. Like I said, you have yet to show what it means. So, what "republican talking points" do I completely agree with, that disqualify me from being a libertarian? Let's test your libertarianism...was Judge Bork unfairly denied a seat on the supreme court and if so...why ? No idea. How about something from after I was of voting age? Better yet, how about something from 2000? Yea, just as I submitted I thought maybe too far back. Ok, let's take a stab, not to derail this OP but to me, the Libertarian does not support either the Patriot Act or the Homeland Security Act. Also more recently...the latest Def. Auth Act. I have stated my distaste for the Patriot Act. I have not read into the Homeland Security Act (I thought Homeland Security was part of the Patriot Act), and I have not read into the NDAA.

ashjor911 -> RE: Immigration Reform (1/30/2013 10:10:07 AM)
dont get me wrong, but i have made a lot of effort not to become " illegal immigrant " but you see in my case i have to stay 5-10 more years in a war zone to become legal. so i am forced to have some illegal ways to become "illegal immigrant " & hope for the best. its way much faster that way. its just my way of view

tj444 -> RE: Immigration Reform (1/30/2013 10:20:57 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: meomymaid I for one am under current conditions far more interested in cutting down on H1 visas. We have so many unemployed and companies tell us they can't get qualified americans? Now if that isn't wrong, I don't know. That doesn't even require an act of Congress. You want to cut H1 visas? then you can expect the companies that need tech & STEM workers to set up in other countries (even more than they have been doing cuz they cant get enough approvals for H1 visas).. even foreign students in the US are usually not allowed to stay past their time in school so they are trained but have to go back home, or go to work for Microsoft in Vancouver, Canada.. which is only a few hours away from their Seattle location.. or some similar situation.. Its your loss, quite frankly.. cuz those workers could be contributing to the US economy instead.. but go ahead and cut down on those Visas.. other countries will gladly take that business and workers.. [;)]

tj444 -> RE: Immigration Reform (1/30/2013 10:34:52 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MrRodgers My whole perspective on this, is that we will never see any real reform and a formal, bureaucratic legal path to say a green card let alone citizenship for any of our neighbors to the south.. so you dont think that if congress doesnt come up with a workable solution that Obama will not keep his promise and institute his own version of immigration reform? I do expect that whatever it finally ends up being, it will still be far from ideal..

meomymaid -> RE: Immigration Reform (1/30/2013 10:45:08 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tj444 You want to cut H1 visas? then you can expect the companies that need tech & STEM workers to set up in other countries (even more than they have been doing cuz they cant get enough approvals for H1 visas).. even foreign students in the US are usually not allowed to stay past their time in school so they are trained but have to go back home, or go to work for Microsoft in Vancouver, Canada.. which is only a few hours away from their Seattle location.. or some similar situation.. Its your loss, quite frankly.. cuz those workers could be contributing to the US economy instead.. but go ahead and cut down on those Visas.. other countries will gladly take that business and workers.. [;)] Let them go. If that is an excuse NOT to hire americans, then I don't want to have those companies in America. I don't want them under our protection. I don't want them to use 'Made in USA'. I want the unpatriotic idiots out of the US. If they think Honey is sweeter elsewhere and they get better protection, let them move.

Phoenixpower -> RE: Immigration Reform (1/30/2013 10:54:03 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Kirata quote: ORIGINAL: PeonForHer I think that if people can't live in a civilised way and refuse to learn not to be savage and bestial, they should be deported back to the USA. Your affection and respect for my country is heart-warming. I can only hope for some circumstance to arise which will allow us to return the favor. K. Well, I actually have the unpopular view that if someone does a crime in a different country, they should be deported back into their own country and spend the time in prison there, instead of in the prison of the country in which they committed the crime...now of course some people say "why should another country take the responsibility for shit they do abroad..." well, I just think it would not be wrong if the country of hometurf is responsible for it's own citizens and I also heard the views that some nationalities consider it less a threat to be in the prison in our country than in the ones in their own one....so I think for some folks it could work as a fact to remind them, better not to chose the wrong path... Therefore in the example above....british prisoners in the US would be sent to british prison and US prisoners in the UK to US prison....

Phoenixpower -> RE: Immigration Reform (1/30/2013 10:56:55 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ashjor911 dont get me wrong, but i have made a lot of effort not to become " illegal immigrant " but you see in my case i have to stay 5-10 more years in a war zone to become legal. so i am forced to have some illegal ways to become "illegal immigrant " & hope for the best. its way much faster that way. its just my way of view A view I can totally understand Ash....in the UK I worked with a fair amount of illegal immigrants, heck, once one of the companies I worked for was raided by the police due to that fact, and sometimes I overheard how they gave advice on each other how to go about it now (after 10 years of being illegal or so) to become legal....

DomYngBlk -> RE: Immigration Reform (1/30/2013 11:06:18 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri quote: ORIGINAL: DomYngBlk No such thing as a libertarian thinker. For the most part what I see are right wingers that think cause they are for "freedom" rather than any deviation from the republican talking point. Like I said, you have yet to show what it means. So, what "republican talking points" do I completely agree with, that disqualify me from being a libertarian? DS, you are going to argue you aren't? Education in ohio......we went over the extensively. You read it right from the republican website.....or the labor battle in michigan......name it...you agree with it

MrRodgers -> RE: Immigration Reform (1/30/2013 11:12:24 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tj444 quote: ORIGINAL: MrRodgers My whole perspective on this, is that we will never see any real reform and a formal, bureaucratic legal path to say a green card let alone citizenship for any of our neighbors to the south.. so you dont think that if congress doesnt come up with a workable solution that Obama will not keep his promise and institute his own version of immigration reform? I do expect that whatever it finally ends up being, it will still be far from ideal.. Oh as always [they] will call it 'immigration reform' just as in all other non-reforming reforms, it will hardly make a dent on illegal immigration. I agree with those who suggest and it has often been postulated, that to have a truly legitimate and formal immigration regime, would require a bureaucracy the size of the IRS or larger. With neither congress or the white house willing to form such a bureaucracy and because so much of south and central America remains an economic wasteland, we (the US) will continue to see millions come here...documented or not.

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