"Buyer's Remorse" in Louisiana (Full Version)

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Fightdirecto -> "Buyer's Remorse" in Louisiana (1/31/2013 8:47:13 AM)

quote:

In Louisiana, Republican Governor Bobby Jindal pushed for a voucher program that would allow state funds to be used to pay for religious schools...

It passed.

Now, ONE OF THE STATE LEGISLATORS WHO VOTED FOR THE PROGRAM, REP. VALARIE HODGES (R-Watson), JUST MADE A SHOCKING DISCOVERY, THOUGH:

CHRISTIANITY ISN’T THE ONLY RELIGION!

REP. VALARIE HODGES,
R-Watson, SAYS SHE HAD NO IDEA THAT GOV. BOBBY JINDAL’S OVERHAUL OF THE STATE’S EDUCATIONAL SYSTEM MIGHT MEAN TAXPAYER SUPPORT OF MUSLIM SCHOOLS.

“I ACTUALLY SUPPORT FUNDING FOR TEACHING THE FUNDAMENTALS OF AMERICA’S FOUNDING FATHERS’ RELIGION, WHICH IS CHRISTIANITY, IN PUBLIC SCHOOLS OR PRIVATE SCHOOLS,”
the District 64 Representative said Monday.

“UNFORTUNATELY IT WILL NOT BE LIMITED TO THE FOUNDERS’ RELIGION,” Hodges said. “We need to insure that it does not open the door to fund radical Islam schools. There are a thousand Muslim schools that have sprung up recently. I DO NOT SUPPORT USING PUBLIC FUNDS FOR TEACHING ISLAM ANYWHERE HERE IN LOUISIANA.”…

Where to begin?...Of course Muslim schools will qualify for funding under a voucher plan. When programs like this are set up that dole out benefits to religious schools, the government can’t play favorites. That’s basic.

Some legislators aren’t comfortable funding Muslim schools. What’s to be done? How about not establishing these programs in the first place? …

Rep. Hodges made the mistake of saying out loud what some Fundamentalist Evangelical Protestant Christians only say to themselves to private: WHEN THEY SAY THEY WANT “RELIGIOUS FREEDOM,” THEY’RE ONLY REFERRING TO THEIR OWN FAITH. Everyone else can fend for themselves.

Message to Rep. Hodges: Your Fundamentalist Evangelical Protestant Christian privilege is showing.


Saying it much better than I could ever say it, James Madison, Founding Father, principal author of the Bill of Rights and sometimes called “The Father of the Constitution”, wrote:

quote:

Who does not see that the same authority which can establish Christianity, in exclusion of all other religions, may establish with the same ease any particular sect of Christians, in exclusion of all other sects?...Whilst we assert for ourselves a freedom to embrace, to profess and observe the Religion which we believe to be of divine origin, we cannot deny equal freedom to those whose minds have not yet yielded to the evidence which has convinced us. If this freedom be abused, it is an offense against God, not against man…AN ALLIANCE OR COALITION BETWEEN GOVERNMENT AND ANY SPECIFIC RELIGION CANNOT BE TOO CAREFULLY GUARDED AGAINST.


[image]local://upfiles/42188/2CB9A96F4BB848649408AFFDEB79D0F3.jpg[/image]




Nosathro -> RE: "Buyer's Remorse" in Louisiana (1/31/2013 9:09:46 AM)

I thought that the 1st Amendment prevented this....Seperation of Church and State.

Jefferson wrote, "I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between Church & State."




Real0ne -> RE: "Buyer's Remorse" in Louisiana (1/31/2013 9:18:38 AM)

worse yet how about the secular human government sponsored religion as it is now?




DesideriScuri -> RE: "Buyer's Remorse" in Louisiana (1/31/2013 9:21:27 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Fightdirecto
quote:

In Louisiana, Republican Governor Bobby Jindal pushed for a voucher program that would allow state funds to be used to pay for religious schools...
It passed.
Now, ONE OF THE STATE LEGISLATORS WHO VOTED FOR THE PROGRAM, REP. VALARIE HODGES (R-Watson), JUST MADE A SHOCKING DISCOVERY, THOUGH:
CHRISTIANITY ISN’T THE ONLY RELIGION!
REP. VALARIE HODGES,
R-Watson, SAYS SHE HAD NO IDEA THAT GOV. BOBBY JINDAL’S OVERHAUL OF THE STATE’S EDUCATIONAL SYSTEM MIGHT MEAN TAXPAYER SUPPORT OF MUSLIM SCHOOLS.
“I ACTUALLY SUPPORT FUNDING FOR TEACHING THE FUNDAMENTALS OF AMERICA’S FOUNDING FATHERS’ RELIGION, WHICH IS CHRISTIANITY, IN PUBLIC SCHOOLS OR PRIVATE SCHOOLS,”
the District 64 Representative said Monday.
“UNFORTUNATELY IT WILL NOT BE LIMITED TO THE FOUNDERS’ RELIGION,” Hodges said. “We need to insure that it does not open the door to fund radical Islam schools. There are a thousand Muslim schools that have sprung up recently. I DO NOT SUPPORT USING PUBLIC FUNDS FOR TEACHING ISLAM ANYWHERE HERE IN LOUISIANA.”…
Where to begin?...Of course Muslim schools will qualify for funding under a voucher plan. When programs like this are set up that dole out benefits to religious schools, the government can’t play favorites. That’s basic.
Some legislators aren’t comfortable funding Muslim schools. What’s to be done? How about not establishing these programs in the first place? …
Rep. Hodges made the mistake of saying out loud what some Fundamentalist Evangelical Protestant Christians only say to themselves to private: WHEN THEY SAY THEY WANT “RELIGIOUS FREEDOM,” THEY’RE ONLY REFERRING TO THEIR OWN FAITH. Everyone else can fend for themselves.
Message to Rep. Hodges: Your Fundamentalist Evangelical Protestant Christian privilege is showing.

Saying it much better than I could ever say it, James Madison, Founding Father, principal author of the Bill of Rights and sometimes called “The Father of the Constitution”, wrote:
quote:

Who does not see that the same authority which can establish Christianity, in exclusion of all other religions, may establish with the same ease any particular sect of Christians, in exclusion of all other sects?...Whilst we assert for ourselves a freedom to embrace, to profess and observe the Religion which we believe to be of divine origin, we cannot deny equal freedom to those whose minds have not yet yielded to the evidence which has convinced us. If this freedom be abused, it is an offense against God, not against man…AN ALLIANCE OR COALITION BETWEEN GOVERNMENT AND ANY SPECIFIC RELIGION CANNOT BE TOO CAREFULLY GUARDED AGAINST.


So, one State Rep is having issues with it? Big deal. Personally, I still support school vouchers. This is just another wonderful example of "unintended consequences" when people don't think things through (or only think one step, ignoring how their action is going to impact the next few steps).




DesideriScuri -> RE: "Buyer's Remorse" in Louisiana (1/31/2013 9:30:48 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nosathro
I thought that the 1st Amendment prevented this....Seperation of Church and State.
Jefferson wrote, "I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between Church & State."


There is no problem with it, as long as there are no religions discriminated against. If it was limited to "Catholic" schools, it would be against the first amendment. And, the vouchers are only for religious schools, but all schools. They just include religious schools, as opposed to not being able to be used for them. Allow the consumers - parents of students - to decide which school is doing a good job with their vouchers. Schools will have to compete for students.




Nosathro -> RE: "Buyer's Remorse" in Louisiana (1/31/2013 9:54:30 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nosathro
I thought that the 1st Amendment prevented this....Seperation of Church and State.
Jefferson wrote, "I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between Church & State."


There is no problem with it, as long as there are no religions discriminated against. If it was limited to "Catholic" schools, it would be against the first amendment. And, the vouchers are only for religious schools, but all schools. They just include religious schools, as opposed to not being able to be used for them. Allow the consumers - parents of students - to decide which school is doing a good job with their vouchers. Schools will have to compete for students.


I totally disagree the Seperation of Church and State does include this.




Switcheroo1983 -> RE: "Buyer's Remorse" in Louisiana (1/31/2013 11:12:20 AM)

I have very mixed feelings. Most of Dad's family is Muslim, and at one point I flirted greatly with Sufism. Your stadard rank and file Muslim in this nation is here because they are not fanatics, don't want to live under the faux Sharia espoused by "Islamic governments", or because they are the "wrong kind" of Muslim (my family was/is the "wrong kind", which is what brought them here). However, people should be wary of Islamic schooling.

As the State Rep, though, what a maroon!




MrRodgers -> RE: "Buyer's Remorse" in Louisiana (1/31/2013 11:34:33 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

worse yet how about the secular human government sponsored religion as it is now?

Secularism is not a religion and the govt. is doing no such thing. [It] is the free exercise of thought. Secularism is simply a word describing a society that favors civil policy that should be conducted without the introduction of any religious element.




DesideriScuri -> RE: "Buyer's Remorse" in Louisiana (1/31/2013 11:46:33 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nosathro
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
quote:

ORIGINAL: Nosathro
I thought that the 1st Amendment prevented this....Seperation of Church and State.
Jefferson wrote, "I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between Church & State."

There is no problem with it, as long as there are no religions discriminated against. If it was limited to "Catholic" schools, it would be against the first amendment. And, the vouchers are only for religious schools, but all schools. They just include religious schools, as opposed to not being able to be used for them. Allow the consumers - parents of students - to decide which school is doing a good job with their vouchers. Schools will have to compete for students.

I totally disagree the Seperation of Church and State does include this.


How so? This is about a school voucher. This is about a taxpayer being allowed to choose what school his/her kidlets attend. No one is being forced to attend any particular religious anything. No church is being pushed, and no church is being discriminated against. This is about the schools.




Nosathro -> RE: "Buyer's Remorse" in Louisiana (1/31/2013 12:12:18 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nosathro
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
quote:

ORIGINAL: Nosathro
I thought that the 1st Amendment prevented this....Seperation of Church and State.
Jefferson wrote, "I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between Church & State."

There is no problem with it, as long as there are no religions discriminated against. If it was limited to "Catholic" schools, it would be against the first amendment. And, the vouchers are only for religious schools, but all schools. They just include religious schools, as opposed to not being able to be used for them. Allow the consumers - parents of students - to decide which school is doing a good job with their vouchers. Schools will have to compete for students.

I totally disagree the Seperation of Church and State does include this.


How so? This is about a school voucher. This is about a taxpayer being allowed to choose what school his/her kidlets attend. No one is being forced to attend any particular religious anything. No church is being pushed, and no church is being discriminated against. This is about the schools.


In Louisiana, Republican Governor Bobby Jindal pushed for a voucher program that would allow state funds to be used to pay for religious schools...

I don't have any children however I am taxed to pay for schools. I also would question the Governor motives. If the parents paid for the schooling themselves and received a tax break for it, then it would not violate the Seperation of Church and State.




Moonhead -> RE: "Buyer's Remorse" in Louisiana (1/31/2013 12:16:44 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

worse yet how about the secular human government sponsored religion as it is now?

Well, when you can demonstrate how giving creationism equal time to the theory of evolution in science classes is pushing :secular humanism" as a religious agenda, you might have a leg to stand on with that.
But go on: precisely how is secular humanism being pushed more aggressively by your government than christianity at present?




mnottertail -> RE: "Buyer's Remorse" in Louisiana (1/31/2013 12:34:12 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead


quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

worse yet how about the secular human government sponsored religion as it is now?

Well, when you can demonstrate how giving creationism equal time to the theory of evolution in science classes is pushing :secular humanism" as a religious agenda, you might have a leg to stand on with that.
But go on: precisely how is secular humanism being pushed more aggressively by your government than christianity at present?


Well, we are certainly not pushing the 7 day creation thing in our sciences here, innit?




Moonhead -> RE: "Buyer's Remorse" in Louisiana (1/31/2013 12:34:45 PM)

Give it time, Ron.




DesideriScuri -> RE: "Buyer's Remorse" in Louisiana (1/31/2013 1:36:59 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nosathro
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
quote:

ORIGINAL: Nosathro
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
quote:

ORIGINAL: Nosathro
I thought that the 1st Amendment prevented this....Seperation of Church and State.
Jefferson wrote, "I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between Church & State."

There is no problem with it, as long as there are no religions discriminated against. If it was limited to "Catholic" schools, it would be against the first amendment. And, the vouchers are only for religious schools, but all schools. They just include religious schools, as opposed to not being able to be used for them. Allow the consumers - parents of students - to decide which school is doing a good job with their vouchers. Schools will have to compete for students.

I totally disagree the Seperation of Church and State does include this.

How so? This is about a school voucher. This is about a taxpayer being allowed to choose what school his/her kidlets attend. No one is being forced to attend any particular religious anything. No church is being pushed, and no church is being discriminated against. This is about the schools.

In Louisiana, Republican Governor Bobby Jindal pushed for a voucher program that would allow state funds to be used to pay for religious schools...
I don't have any children however I am taxed to pay for schools. I also would question the Governor motives. If the parents paid for the schooling themselves and received a tax break for it, then it would not violate the Seperation of Church and State.


You are still paying for the schools. Are you saying that el-hi education shouldn't be publicly funded? Or, are you saying that a family that wants to sent their child to a religious-affiliated school has to pay extra? Next, you'll bitch that the "tax break" constitutes a state funding of religious schools, too.




mnottertail -> RE: "Buyer's Remorse" in Louisiana (1/31/2013 1:44:33 PM)

Or, are you saying that a family that wants to sent their child to a religious-affiliated school has to pay extra?

I'll say that.  We the people ain't a fuckin religious organization.  If you want the myth, pay for the fuckin thing, it has no place in our system.




LafayetteLady -> RE: "Buyer's Remorse" in Louisiana (1/31/2013 2:40:11 PM)

There is sound reasoning behind decisions such as this. It is no secret that so many of our school systems have a very lax attitude. School choice also makes the schools have to work harder to be better schools that people want to send their children to. Florida has been doing school choice for years (they do not include religious schools, by the way). This has caused the schools to have teachers who work harder or who specialize in particular curriculum that attracts parents. When I lived in Florida with my son, we chose Madiera Beach because they had a Marine Biology specialty and my son was interested in that. During that year, my son also won an award that very few students received, because he had teachers that actually gave a shit.

I will say that while I don't disagree with including religious schools, they should have to meet certain academic criteria, just like most charter schools need to do to get funding. This would eliminate the types of Islamic schools they are fearing.


ETA: It would also eliminate many over zealous Christian schools as well.




mnottertail -> RE: "Buyer's Remorse" in Louisiana (1/31/2013 2:42:11 PM)

Ja, but Louisiana has never gave a fuck about education.   This law will be headed for SCOTUS, and they have struck down every one, and will do so to this end run, by my estimates.




muhly22222 -> RE: "Buyer's Remorse" in Louisiana (1/31/2013 3:00:05 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nosathro


quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nosathro
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
quote:

ORIGINAL: Nosathro
I thought that the 1st Amendment prevented this....Seperation of Church and State.
Jefferson wrote, "I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between Church & State."

There is no problem with it, as long as there are no religions discriminated against. If it was limited to "Catholic" schools, it would be against the first amendment. And, the vouchers are only for religious schools, but all schools. They just include religious schools, as opposed to not being able to be used for them. Allow the consumers - parents of students - to decide which school is doing a good job with their vouchers. Schools will have to compete for students.

I totally disagree the Seperation of Church and State does include this.


How so? This is about a school voucher. This is about a taxpayer being allowed to choose what school his/her kidlets attend. No one is being forced to attend any particular religious anything. No church is being pushed, and no church is being discriminated against. This is about the schools.


In Louisiana, Republican Governor Bobby Jindal pushed for a voucher program that would allow state funds to be used to pay for religious schools...

I don't have any children however I am taxed to pay for schools. I also would question the Governor motives. If the parents paid for the schooling themselves and received a tax break for it, then it would not violate the Seperation of Church and State.


As a lawyer, I can tell you that this is perfectly acceptable under the First Amendment. Despite the common usage of the phrase "separation of church and state," that's never been the test that the Supreme Court (and therefore other courts around the country) apply. Instead, the court apply a three-part test to determine whether there has been a violation of the Establishment Clause.

First, the law must have a secular purpose. In this case, the secular purpose would be permitting families to educate children outside of what is sometimes a dysfunctional public school system.

Second, the law can neither inhibit or advance religion. This law clearly does not inhibit religion; does it advance it? If you were to look at the provisions that are in place, I'm sure that Louisiana would also have a provision that government funds cannot go towards religious classes or religious materials, just like most of the other states with similar provisions around the country.

Finally, the law cannot result in excessive government entanglement with religion. And no, any interaction is not considered to be excessive government entanglement. This situation doesn't have it, though.

Also, based on Supreme Court precedents, I can tell you that when the financial aid is made available to people regardless of their religion, it does not violate any Constitutional provision. Under this provision, an atheist could choose to send their child to a Catholic (or Muslim) school, and use the public funds to do so. Why would an atheist do such a thing? Maybe the tradeoffs in having their child receive religious education that I'm assuming they disagree with are better than the alternative of having their child go through the local public school system.

As far as the kind of system you say you prefer...you're either paying for it upfront or on the back end (allowing them to take a tax credit for the tuition is the same thing as giving them the money upfront, really). So does it really matter which way it's done?




Nosathro -> RE: "Buyer's Remorse" in Louisiana (1/31/2013 3:21:48 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nosathro
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
quote:

ORIGINAL: Nosathro
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
quote:

ORIGINAL: Nosathro
I thought that the 1st Amendment prevented this....Seperation of Church and State.
Jefferson wrote, "I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between Church & State."

There is no problem with it, as long as there are no religions discriminated against. If it was limited to "Catholic" schools, it would be against the first amendment. And, the vouchers are only for religious schools, but all schools. They just include religious schools, as opposed to not being able to be used for them. Allow the consumers - parents of students - to decide which school is doing a good job with their vouchers. Schools will have to compete for students.

I totally disagree the Seperation of Church and State does include this.

How so? This is about a school voucher. This is about a taxpayer being allowed to choose what school his/her kidlets attend. No one is being forced to attend any particular religious anything. No church is being pushed, and no church is being discriminated against. This is about the schools.

In Louisiana, Republican Governor Bobby Jindal pushed for a voucher program that would allow state funds to be used to pay for religious schools...
I don't have any children however I am taxed to pay for schools. I also would question the Governor motives. If the parents paid for the schooling themselves and received a tax break for it, then it would not violate the Seperation of Church and State.


You are still paying for the schools. Are you saying that el-hi education shouldn't be publicly funded? Or, are you saying that a family that wants to sent their child to a religious-affiliated school has to pay extra? Next, you'll bitch that the "tax break" constitutes a state funding of religious schools, too.


You misunderstood...let me put it this way...a public school..can not have religous teachings...if it does then it violates the seperation of church and state..now if parents want to send their child to a school that does have religous teaching, fine..the state does not fund it, however, the family is not benefitting from the public school system so in my view they should be allowed a tax break for money they spend on their childs education at a non publically funded school, this school does not have to like Catholic school, the requirement is that the school is not publically funded. I have no arguement for giving a tax break to a family that is sending their child to a private school, they are spending their own money. I hope this helps.




mnottertail -> RE: "Buyer's Remorse" in Louisiana (1/31/2013 3:25:05 PM)

muhly:

If you were to look at the provisions that are in place, I'm sure that Louisiana would also have a provision that government funds cannot go towards religious classes or religious materials, just like most of the other states with similar provisions around the country.



I ran around looking for just that, because of the same reasons you are holding (though I am something of a shithouse lawyer only, not a real necktie) and I couldn't find it.

However, I have yet to read the current law just passed.  It may be there.




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