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No, it's not specifically the mission of the UN to provide National Defense, but, wouldn't it fit within Ch1 Sections 1-4?

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What happens if diplomacy fails to bring about the desired results?

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ORIGINAL: vincentML

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No, it's not specifically the mission of the UN to provide National Defense, but, wouldn't it fit within Ch1 Sections 1-4?

I fail to see anything in that section that gives the UN any power except to take collective action. That tells me the UN cannot act on its own. Was there any collective millitary action santioned by the UN after the Korean War? IDK. Up to the Security Council, isn't it? Subject to VETO then.

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The Purposes of the United Nations are:


1. To maintain international peace and security, and to that end: to take effective collective measures for the prevention and removal of threats to the peace, and for the suppression of acts of aggression or other breaches of the peace, and to bring about by peaceful means, and in conformity with the principles of justice and international law, adjustment or settlement of international disputes or situations which might lead to a breach of the peace;
2. To develop friendly relations among nations based on respect for the principle of equal rights and self-determination of peoples, and to take other appropriate measures to strengthen universal peace;
3. To achieve international co-operation in solving international problems of an economic, social, cultural, or humanitarian character, and in promoting and encouraging respect for human rights and for fundamental freedoms for all without distinction as to race, sex, language, or religion; and
4. To be a centre for harmonizing the actions of nations in the attainment of these common ends.

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What happens if diplomacy fails to bring about the desired results?

"According to Sun Tzu "strategy" is the grandest affair of the state, yet war is the failure of diplomacy. It is funny and seems contradictory that Sun Tzu said in its masterpiece "The art of war" yet this view reveals that the ultimate goal of the strategist is to avoid war, as confirmed by many other quotes where the master Sun states that the best general never goes to war but simply corners his opponent well ahead of battle. The view is that control is the ultimate goal, whilst war only impoverishes the acquired territories and make control more difficult as it incentivates riots." SOURCE
Unfortunately, Israel is succeeding admirably, I think. Gotta give em that.

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The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting.

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If part of the needed action is to go in and be the de facto National Defense, I do think the UN has as much pull as any to go in and do it.

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Looks like Section 1 is all about doing what the UN can do to send both kids into their corners. Section 2 is almost like, "now, kiss and make up." Section 3 certainly looks to be a diplomatic method and gathering international pressure on Israel and the Palestinians. And, Section 4 seems like it would be rubbing the booboo egos and rubbing the butthurt away.

If part of the needed action is to go in and be the de facto National Defense, I do think the UN has as much pull as any to go in and do it.

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ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

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Looks like Section 1 is all about doing what the UN can do to send both kids into their corners. Section 2 is almost like, "now, kiss and make up." Section 3 certainly looks to be a diplomatic method and gathering international pressure on Israel and the Palestinians. And, Section 4 seems like it would be rubbing the booboo egos and rubbing the butthurt away.

If part of the needed action is to go in and be the de facto National Defense, I do think the UN has as much pull as any to go in and do it.

Sorry DS but your point is naive. If history is anything to go by, there is no reason to believe that Israel will ever listen to the UN. Israel has been the subject of dozens possibly hundreds of resolutions asking it to abide by international law and to cease aggression and atrocities. To the best of my knowledge Israel has never obeyed a single one.

The sole reason for this is that your country the USA gives Israel diplomatic cover and protection from having to face up to the consequences of its crimes, and the the US veto on the Security Council is enough to ensure Israel escapes paying for its many crimes.

If you want to change the situation there, the best thing you can do is support the effort to end the bizarre insane US security alliance with the rogue terrorist apartheid State of Israel

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It's not like the UN GA stood by and ignored the violation of the very first resolution affecting Israel resulting in the UN governed city of Jerusalem being conquered by the Arab League forces and the GA ignoring this violation of their own resolution for the next 20 years. Oh wait it is...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Partition_Plan_for_Palestine

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ORIGINAL: vincentML
A couple of interesting passages from the article you cited, Ken.

First, Ben-Gureon's comments come pretty damn close to an all out call for ethnic cleansing of the Arab population in the proposed Israeli state

Secondly, the Arabs seem to make a valid claim for the inequity of the partition:

John Wolffe says that while Zionists tend to attribute Palestinian rejection of the plan to a mere intransigence, Arabs have always reiterated that it was rejected because it was unfair: it gave the majority of the land (56 percent) to the Jews, who at that stage legally owned only 7 percent of it, and remained a minority of the population.[45] Mehran Kamrava also notes the disproportionate allocation under the plan, and adds that the area under Jewish control contained 45 percent of the Palestinian population. The proposed Arab state was only given 45 percent of the land, much of which was unfit for agriculture. Jaffa, though geographically separated, was to be part of the Arab state.[45]

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I imagine most Americans aren't aware of the Arab side of the issue, nor do they give a damn. One can only speculate why. Perhaps they conflate the Palestinians with the Saudis who attacked us on 9/11. Or with the Afghans who gave sanctuary to Al-Quaida. Hell, they all look alike, don't they?

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nah bout 90% of palestine waz state owned land dats owned by no one, just leasted from da state. if da jews just owned 7% then it waz nut less than da arabs. did ya also forget da arabs already got bout 80% of da mandate wit jordan? plus yer ben gurion quote isnt well cited but da idea waz different states for two lots of folks so waz anything all dat bad said?

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ORIGINAL: vincentML

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nah bout 90% of palestine waz state owned land dats owned by no one, just leasted from da state. if da jews just owned 7% then it waz nut less than da arabs. did ya also forget da arabs already got bout 80% of da mandate wit jordan? plus yer ben gurion quote isnt well cited but da idea waz different states for two lots of folks so waz anything all dat bad said?

Sorry, that's bogus. Leased from the state? What state? Idaho? There was no state. There was a defeated empire. Much of the land was owned by absentee landowners. The Zionists purchased what little land they had from the landowners. Much of the land was also held in common by Arab villages.

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This revealing quote from Ben-Gurion in a moment of truth-telling:

"I don't understand your optimism," Ben-Gurion declared. "Why should the Arabs make peace? If I were an Arab leader I would never make terms with Israel. That is natural: we have taken their country. Sure, God promised it to us, but what does that matter to them? Our God is not theirs. We come from Israel, it's true, but two thousand years ago, and what is that to them? There has been antisemitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They only see one thing: we have come here and stolen their country. Why should they accept that? They may perhaps forget in one or two generations' time, but for the moment there is no chance. So, it's simple: we have to stay strong and maintain a powerful army. Our whole policy is there. Otherwise the Arabs will wipe us out.
Say it again: "we have come here and stolen their country." Says it all.

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ORIGINAL: WantsOfTheFlesh

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I imagine most Americans aren't aware of the Arab side of the issue, nor do they give a damn. One can only speculate why. Perhaps they conflate the Palestinians with the Saudis who attacked us on 9/11. Or with the Afghans who gave sanctuary to Al-Quaida. Hell, they all look alike, don't they?

yup dat must be it, da ignorant americans thunk da pallys did 9/11. [8|]

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ORIGINAL: Politesub53

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ORIGINAL: WantsOfTheFlesh

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I imagine most Americans aren't aware of the Arab side of the issue, nor do they give a damn. One can only speculate why. Perhaps they conflate the Palestinians with the Saudis who attacked us on 9/11. Or with the Afghans who gave sanctuary to Al-Quaida. Hell, they all look alike, don't they?

yup dat must be it, da ignorant americans thunk da pallys did 9/11. [8|]

You miss the point. Americans did indeed, and were led to believe, 9/11 was carried out by rogue States.

"The regime has longstanding and continuing ties to terrorist groups, and there are Al Qaida terrorists inside Iraq." - George W. Bush Delivers Weekly Radio Address, White House (9/28/2002)

I seem to remember Pat Robertson and Jerry someone or other even blamed gays and lesbians. [8|]

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ORIGINAL: vincentML

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It's not like the UN GA stood by and ignored the violation of the very first resolution affecting Israel resulting in the UN governed city of Jerusalem being conquered by the Arab League forces and the GA ignoring this violation of their own resolution for the next 20 years. Oh wait it is...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Partition_Plan_for_Palestine

A couple of interesting passages from the article you cited, Ken.

First, Ben-Gureon's comments come pretty damn close to an all out call for ethnic cleansing of the Arab population in the proposed Israeli state:

"…the total population of the Jewish State at the time of its establishment will be about one million, including almost 40% non-Jews. Such a [population] composition does not provide a stable basis for a Jewish State. This [demographic] fact must be viewed in all its clarity and acuteness. With such a [population] composition, there cannot even be absolute certainty that control will remain in the hands of the Jewish majority... There can be no stable and strong Jewish state so long as it has a Jewish majority of only 60%".[38]

Secondly, the Arabs seem to make a valid claim for the inequity of the partition:

John Wolffe says that while Zionists tend to attribute Palestinian rejection of the plan to a mere intransigence, Arabs have always reiterated that it was rejected because it was unfair: it gave the majority of the land (56 percent) to the Jews, who at that stage legally owned only 7 percent of it, and remained a minority of the population.[45] Mehran Kamrava also notes the disproportionate allocation under the plan, and adds that the area under Jewish control contained 45 percent of the Palestinian population. The proposed Arab state was only given 45 percent of the land, much of which was unfit for agriculture. Jaffa, though geographically separated, was to be part of the Arab state.[45]

I imagine most Americans aren't aware of the Arab side of the issue, nor do they give a damn. One can only speculate why. Perhaps they conflate the Palestinians with the Saudis who attacked us on 9/11. Or with the Afghans who gave sanctuary to Al-Quaida. Hell, they all look alike, don't they?

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This revealing quote from Ben-Gurion in a moment of truth-telling:

"I don't understand your optimism," Ben-Gurion declared. "Why should the Arabs make peace? If I were an Arab leader I would never make terms with Israel. That is natural: we have taken their country. Sure, God promised it to us, but what does that matter to them? Our God is not theirs. We come from Israel, it's true, but two thousand years ago, and what is that to them? There has been antisemitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They only see one thing: we have come here and stolen their country. Why should they accept that? They may perhaps forget in one or two generations' time, but for the moment there is no chance. So, it's simple: we have to stay strong and maintain a powerful army. Our whole policy is there. Otherwise the Arabs will wipe us out.
Say it again: "we have come here and stolen their country." Says it all.

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in the quote ben gurion was trying ta describe da arab mindset over da conflict but not how da conflict was. that is shown in lines like "They only see one thing: we have come here and stolen their country." he said it ta keep isreal strong.

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Israel has not been perfect in the years since the occupation began but in historic perspective they have behaved in a far more civilized manner than the Arabs. But certain elements of the west are so poorly informed or so hateful of Jews that they ignore those facts.

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ORIGINAL: vincentML
Where have the Arabs taken and occupied another country? Where is the equivalency?

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"I don't understand your optimism," Ben-Gurion declared. "Why should the Arabs make peace? If I were an Arab leader I would never make terms with Israel. That is natural: we have taken their country. Sure, God promised it to us, but what does that matter to them? Our God is not theirs. We come from Israel, it's true, but two thousand years ago, and what is that to them? There has been antisemitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They only see one thing: we have come here and stolen their country. Why should they accept that? They may perhaps forget in one or two generations' time, but for the moment there is no chance. So, it's simple: we have to stay strong and maintain a powerful army. Our whole policy is there. Otherwise the Arabs will wipe us out.

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The Arabs took and occupied both Palestine and Jerusalem. There would be an independent Palestine right now if the Arab League had not invaded and divvied it up on the very day it was supposed to become a state. Maybe you missed my pevious explanation?

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ORIGINAL: vincentML
Ben-Gurion's statement is pretty clear, no matter how you try to twist it: "That is natural: we have taken their country."

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ORIGINAL: vincentML

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This revealing quote from Ben-Gurion in a moment of truth-telling:

"I don't understand your optimism," Ben-Gurion declared. "Why should the Arabs make peace? If I were an Arab leader I would never make terms with Israel. That is natural: we have taken their country. Sure, God promised it to us, but what does that matter to them? Our God is not theirs. We come from Israel, it's true, but two thousand years ago, and what is that to them? There has been antisemitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They only see one thing: we have come here and stolen their country. Why should they accept that? They may perhaps forget in one or two generations' time, but for the moment there is no chance. So, it's simple: we have to stay strong and maintain a powerful army. Our whole policy is there. Otherwise the Arabs will wipe us out.
Say it again: "we have come here and stolen their country." Says it all.

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in the quote ben gurion was trying ta describe da arab mindset over da conflict but not how da conflict was. that is shown in lines like "They only see one thing: we have come here and stolen their country." he said it ta keep isreal strong.

How conveniently in your spin you overlook Ben-Gueron's admission that I have raised in BOLD above: "That is natural: we have taken their country."

That says all that needs to be said. Anything else is spin.

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ORIGINAL: vincentML

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The Arabs took and occupied both Palestine and Jerusalem. There would be an independent Palestine right now if the Arab League had not invaded and divvied it up on the very day it was supposed to become a state. Maybe you missed my pevious explanation?

Your previous explanation doesn't much match the facts on the ground. The Arabs never took and occupied Palestine. Only in your fantasies.

The Israelis and the Palestinians were already at war when the Arab Nations intervened. The war ended with Israel in control of 60% of the land mandated to a Palestinian state.

While deplorable, the Jordanian destruction of Jewish graveyards in East Jerusalem is hardly equivalent to the long presence of Israeli forces in the West Bank, continuing 65 years on, and their brutal oppression of the Palestinians there.

Ben-Gurion's statement is pretty clear, no matter how you try to twist it: "That is natural: we have taken their country."

And which elements of the west are so poorly informed or so hateful of Jews that they ignore your facts? To whom do you impute "hate?"