RE: Submissive in sexless marriage (Full Version)

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thetammyjo -> RE: Submissive in sexless marriage (6/21/2006 11:53:51 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: gardenbluebird

My marriage has been non-sexual for more than eight years because of my husband's serious medical issues. I lasted three years then I said that I either had to have a lover or a divorce. There was no third option. My husband agreed to an open marriage. It was very difficult for both of us, but it was the most loving thing that he could have done in that situation.

IMHO by refusing to make any effort to fix the problem and by not agreeing to an open marriage he is condeming her to misery. Either the misery of not having needs met, the misery of becoming a liar and a cheat, or the misery of a divorce that she doesn't really want. That isn't love, it's cruelty.


I agree completely!

I thought that was what I said earlier.



thetammyjo -> RE: Submissive in sexless marriage (6/21/2006 12:00:26 PM)

All of this below really strongly suggests to me, incognitobynight, that you need to be in therapy so you can work on building yourself up to do what you have to do to be good to yourself.

Can you think of it this way?

If you had dependants and little food would you only feed them and not yourself? Of course not, because you would die and then they would die. You have to take care of yourself first or what you can offer to others will not last or be of poor quality. You and those you love deserve more than this sad version of you. You and they deserve the best you that you can be.

quote:

ORIGINAL: incognitobynight

Lucky Albatross,

I have never said my husband was a sucky person. He is actually quite charming. I never said I hated him, in fact I think I said I love him. He is not abusive, so you say there is no emotional trap here. Ooooh, but you are so wrong. But, I have read many of your posts on this sight and I know that it is not your way to be sympathetic...you are in the "dump him if he's not perfect" crowd. There are a lot of people on collarme who are regulars on the message boards that seem to recommend "dumping people" quite easily, quite frequently, without a second thought. Do you REALLY think I would be here (still in my marriage) if there was not some emotional trap??? Granted, it may be a trap I have participated in making for myself......that doesn't make it any less of a trap.

And meatcleaver, for you.........no.....he doesn't want me to leave him. He has BEGGED me to stay, cried, promised to try and do better (which I don't think he is capable of). His trap is one of societal morals that says that under NO circumstances, can he allow me another sexual partner. But he is terrified of being alone and he is terrified of losing the life that we have built together. I am VERY AWARE OF THIS.

Do I CHOOSE to stay here? Yeah, I guess you could say that I have chosen to stay until I can get up the courage to wreck his life. And it WILL wreck his life....make NO mistake about that. So forgive me if you somehow think less of me because I am finding it hard to make that move. I know it will come.....and I promise you that when I do, there is going to be a fair amount of the collarme crowd that will look down on THAT decision as well.

I would like to remind those of you that are so happy in your lives that you can look down on people who are not so happy in theirs, that I didn't come to this board to ask for your advice, or for your blessings. I came to this board to share my experience with someone who WAS looking for advice, and to let that person know that I am in a similar experience and that I have a name for what is wrong.

I think I might recommend for fun that those of you who wish to pass judgement on those of us who don't have the benefit of strong self esteems, healthy senses of self worth, go to a couple of Co-dependence annonymous groups and tell us how we all DESERVE what we get because of our deficiencies. NOBODY deserves this. I KNOW I have a problem. I'm sorry that it bugs you so much that you feel you must step on those of us that suffer this problem, just a little harder.



incognitobynight -> RE: Submissive in sexless marriage (6/21/2006 12:31:21 PM)

Tammyjo,

Yes, you are correct.  I do need to be in therapy to help me deal with this situation, and many of my posts in this thread have stated that I am, in fact, in therapy doing just that. 

I tried to explain to one of my friends, that if I lived 50 miles out of town and I needed to get to the grocery store in a hurry or I (or a child or a beloved cat, whatever) would die of starvation, but I had no transportation, the fact that the need was dire would not change the fact that I still have to find some transportation before I can go to the store to get the food. (When I say "find transportation", I am including hitchhiking as a possible solution.  Either way, I would have to find someone to give me a ride).  The dire need is to move out and begin my life anew.....the transportation is the therapy.  Many people get frustrated because I can't "beam me up scotty" to "the grocery store".  In other words, my issues are a HUGE part  of this and MUST be addressed.  To ignore the issues because there is no patience to deal with them, is like ignoring that the starving person needs to find transportation in order to get to the store.  No transportation.....no getting to the store.  No therapy......still stuck in limbo.  You can't just say "snap out of it! I could do it easy, why can't you?!?"

I hope I have done this pitiful analogy some kind of justice....but it's late in the afternoon and I am fried.  lol



Mercnbeth -> RE: Submissive in sexless marriage (6/21/2006 12:48:37 PM)

quote:

He still does not engage her in sexual activity and after this amount of time, it’s apparent he won’t.
Anyone every heard of this situation before and what happened?

 
irish,
One of four things happened:
  1. They lived together until one died and regardless of which one it was, the one remaining lived happily ever after.
  2. The one being frustrated sexually found anther outlet, with or without the knowledge of the partner.
  3. The couldn't reconcile the missing sexual incompatibility within their relationship and amicably split up; remaining close friends or, in one case, never seeing each other again.
  4. In two cases the worked very hard and resolved the matter. One through a surrogate sexual partner, the other through long counseling found a issue at the core of the problem eliminated it and ended up having a very happy and fulfilling relationship with each other.

Not that there may be other options, but those are the ones I know. For all the lack of comfort in your current relationship it has to be weighed against the consequences of any option. Therein is the problem in asking for advise. Any 'solution' presented can't consider all the emotions you are feeling and all the minute details that are in your mind but can't be documented in the context of this forum.

The best anyone can do is to wish you luck!

quote:

incognitobynight: I would like to remind those of you that are so happy in your lives that you can look down on people who are not so happy in theirs, that I didn't come to this board to ask for your advice, or for your blessings.  I came to this board to share my experience with someone who WAS looking for advice, and to let that person know that I am in a similar experience and that I have  a name for what is wrong.


incognito,
I for one, and I know there are many others, highly respect that you honor your vows and commitment. Many would use your situation to rationalize breaking those vows in exchange for a physical sensation. Keeping your commitment under the circumstances you provide is an indication of your integrity under very difficult circumstances.

You have our compliments!

Good luck to you both!



ArtimisBlack -> RE: Submissive in sexless marriage (6/21/2006 1:05:44 PM)

Anytime. You have my respect for going through this and my sorrow that is was necessary. Be well.



Reflectivesoul -> RE: Submissive in sexless marriage (6/21/2006 1:51:56 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: thetammyjo

The woman in the OP is very unhappy and her husband is unwiling to do anything about it in any fashion because he does not care. That does not sound like love to me but it does sound like using the words "I love you" to manipulate.


Thats a pretty strong assumption, from only hearing one side of a story!!!! 
 
I had a very good conversation about this with a good friend of mine, and the one thing I kept coming back to was this:
 
The women that have been in this situation ( besides myself because yes I was there too ) keep saying one thing over and over, that the men in their lives "made them feel" unloved, unwanted, uncared for.... someone else can NOT "make" you feel anything. Your emotions are yours and yours alone to deal with and to fix. To lay that blame on someone else is not right nor fair. The men in this situation cant be blamed that they are making someone else feel anything. For the most part except in Susans case the women love and care about these men. Sex is what is missing.
 
The thing that strikes me as odd is that most women complain about trolls and men that always bug them and that these men want one thing SEX.... now here the situation is reversed and these men do not want sex, but yet they are still the horrible person for this.
 
If men want sex and express this overly loudly then they are assholes and only out for a "piece", if they dont want sex and express this overly loudly then they are assholes that " are making women feel bad about themselves".
 
Sure I understand that? [8|]



thetammyjo -> RE: Submissive in sexless marriage (6/21/2006 2:01:58 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Reflectivesoul

quote:

ORIGINAL: thetammyjo

The woman in the OP is very unhappy and her husband is unwiling to do anything about it in any fashion because he does not care. That does not sound like love to me but it does sound like using the words "I love you" to manipulate.


Thats a pretty strong assumption, from only hearing one side of a story!!!!

I had a very good conversation about this with a good friend of mine, and the one thing I kept coming back to was this:

The women that have been in this situation ( besides myself because yes I was there too ) keep saying one thing over and over, that the men in their lives "made them feel" unloved, unwanted, uncared for.... someone else can NOT "make" you feel anything. Your emotions are yours and yours alone to deal with and to fix. To lay that blame on someone else is not right nor fair. The men in this situation cant be blamed that they are making someone else feel anything. For the most part except in Susans case the women love and care about these men. Sex is what is missing.



Do you really believe that things that people say and do do not affect you or anyone else?

Come on!

Of course what we hear, what we see and what we experience plays a huge role in how we feel and the choices we think we can make. None of us lives in a vacuum for goddess's sake!

The woman in the OP is taking control of her life by talking to friends, getting therapy and finally expressing how she feels. She didn't get those feelings alone floating in space, they relate to her husband and he therefore had some influence on them unless he's imaginary.



Proprietrix -> RE: Submissive in sexless marriage (6/21/2006 2:06:53 PM)

(Fast reply, not directed toward anyone in particular.)

As someone who is not very inclined to have sex with my partners, I just have to throw some extra kudos to my partners for being the wonderful people they are.
They aren’t so self centered and sanctimonious to assume that "please do not insert penis into vagina" equals "I don’t love you. I don’t care about you. We’re nothing more than friends anymore. You should leave me and secretly get your needs met elsewhere and you have the right to cheat on me."
It’s all good though. By reading replies like this, I realize what wonderful, loving, open-minded, caring, selfless, and strong people my partners are.
They love me regardless of whether or not I suck and fuck them.
They know that I love them regardless of whether or not someone leaves a cum spot on the sheet.
Our love runs so much deeper than jism and cum and sperm.
Do you really believe that sex is the only way to show love? Or that if there is love there must be sex?
If people are doubting their relationships based on something so simple as vaginal muscle clenching X number of times a week, it sounds like there are a whole lot more issues that are making for an unsatisfying relationship.
Do you walk out on your parents because they won’t fuck you?
Do you feel less loved by your siblings because they won’t suck you to orgasm?
Do you doubt the love of your friends because they won’t finger you?
Do you break off those relationships because those people aren’t sexually satisfying you?
Does it mean they love you any less?

Your orgasm is YOUR responsibility. No one else's. It’s your body, your clitoris, your vagina, your penis, your scrotum, your ass hole. These parts of your body and whether or not those parts are being rubbed and stimulated are YOUR responsibility. It in no way reflects how much the other people in your life care about you.
We don’t have the right to have our sexual desires met. Counselors who spew out this ideology are reinforcing lack of responsibility. The only right you have to an orgasm, is the one you give yourself.
Sexual climax isn’t a human right.
The ugly drunk pimple covered bum on skid row who can’t find someone to have sex with him, even paper bag in tow, isn’t being denied a right.
The lonely fat girl on prom night who doesn’t get laid isn’t being denied a right.
And the woman in a marriage with a man who has no sex drive isn’t being denied a right.
Your orgasm. Your genitals. Your hand. Your body. Your vibrator. Your responsibility.
If someone comes into your life and they want to share those things with you, and you agree, then by all means, go at it together.
SEX is not a human need. It is a desire. A very, very strong desire. A desire that can hamper judgment or cause us to be edgy and cranky at times, but still, nothing more than a desire. No one has ever died from lack of intercourse. Coroners don’t write "Cause of Death: Sex Deprivation."

If the burning desire is so strong that it is being to affect other aspects of life, go masturbate.
But to shirk off responsibility of your own horniness to the extent that you are labeling people as bad spouses, lying to people, calling yourself a victim, etc.. all that shows is a lack in maturity and a lack of responsibility over one’s own body urges. When you make your orgasms the responsibility of other people, be it a spouse or not, who have not explicitly agreed to take the responsibilities of your orgasms, you are being very presumptuous.
When you say "I can’t have a relationship without sex." you mean more than that. What do you really mean?
Do you mean "I don’t feel loved unless I’m having orgasms?" If that’s the case, than masturbating would make you feel loved. Right?
Do you mean "I don’t feel loved unless someone else is causing me to have orgasms?"
Is that how you really defines whether or not someone loves you?
I guess your family doesn’t love you right? Because they are not causing you to have orgasms.

I just find this whole concept of lying, cheating, and victim mentality, all because you were horny, very shallow and superficial.



SusanofO -> RE: Submissive in sexless marriage (6/21/2006 2:11:52 PM)

That is what may be true for you, but I believe that, actually, they can make you feel that bad. Maybe it's because I am "too sensitive - maybe it's because I am a Pisces (joke), maybe it's because I am a little bit "co-dependent", but - I did not start out my marriage depressed enough to try to kill myself (my husband helped. A lot). - Susan



Reflectivesoul -> RE: Submissive in sexless marriage (6/21/2006 2:17:29 PM)

TammyJo,
 
I never said that people can not effect or do not effect us, but they are NOT responsible for how we as individuals feel.
 
Also, I do not view the women in these situations as saints either. Knowing from experience that women can be extrememly nasty when not getting what they want, I can make an educated guess that these women still push or pushed these men for sexual attention. Thus setting themselves up to fail, and again blaming the man for this. The man has already made it well known he doesnt want this attention from the women, yet the women still ask, plead, try to get it, not his fault if they come out of it more frusterated than when they went in to the encounter.



SusanofO -> RE: Submissive in sexless marriage (6/21/2006 2:24:57 PM)

Actually, I gave up after about two years ("pushing, that is. I never really "pushed" my husband for sex anyway - (I cried and whined a bit). But, after that did no good, I gave up and looked elsewhere. Also, I wasn't: Fat, a "bitch", a nag, unattractive or lax in taking care of the house (or my husband, in many ways, for that matter). Nobody is going to convince me this was my fault. You may be a good guesser as to why my situation happened, but - I was actually there...I am not trying to offend you in any way, I am just saying - I really almost went crazy trying to figure out what I might be "doing wrong". I finally figured out the answer: Nothing. -Susan  



Reflectivesoul -> RE: Submissive in sexless marriage (6/21/2006 2:31:48 PM)

Susan,
 
We are just going to have to agree to disagree on this one because the only person that allowed *you* to get that low and into that state of mind is *you*. Even if someone stood next to you everyday for years on end saying " you're a worthless person and should die for it" that does not make that person responsible if you jump off a bridge. *You* chose to internalize the actions or words of someone else. *You* chose to allow that persons actions or words to effect you negatively.
 
Oh and the pisces thing wont work either because I am also one.
 
Being seen as a "victim" in this is manipulating the situation so that someone else comes out smelling like roses while the other person is looked upon with a bad view. If all you can say is he doesnt love me because he wont fuck me, then maybe you should check to make sure you arnet the one with the issue, because love runs a LOT deeper than just romping between the sheets. *You* chose to make yourself a "victim" this man did not. Just because he did not have the desire to fuck doesnt make him a horrible person.
 
If the men in question would have been out fucking someone else, ok I could see saying that they were assholes, but these men did not do that. They arent having sex with anyone, so why should you feel you're entitled to it?
 
*shakes head*



SusanofO -> RE: Submissive in sexless marriage (6/21/2006 2:35:52 PM)

Actually I didn't know we were arguing. I thought we were just expressing opinions. I have alreayd explained that my situation involved more than just missing sex. You have your opinion, I have mine, no problemo. - Susan



Reflectivesoul -> RE: Submissive in sexless marriage (6/21/2006 2:39:07 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SusanofO
<snip>
(I cried and whined a bit). Also, I wasn't: Fat, a "bitch", a nag, unattractive or lax in taking care of the house (or my husband, in many ways, for that matter). I really almost went crazy tyring to figure out what I might be "doing wrong". I finally figured out the answer: Nothing. -Susan  

 
Susan,
 
For the two years, do you think you helped the not wanting sex by crying and whining? And yes that is pushing, it was trying to manipulate him into doing something he simply did not want to do.
 
This whole "fat" or "not fat" has nothing to do with it. Fat women have healthy sexual desires just like anyone else, and as one I know damn well I can get what I want any time I want..... so thats just moot and trying to place the blame on something else.
 
 
The biggest thing again to point out is exactly what *you* have said here.... I couldnt have stated it any better than if I had said it myself :
quote:

I really almost went crazy tyring to figure out what I might be "doing wrong".

 
He did not do that, he did not force you to do that, *you* did that to *yourself* period.



MasterKalif -> RE: Submissive in sexless marriage (6/21/2006 2:40:26 PM)

I dont get it....I do believe that love goes beyond sex, and that this woman is trying to see herself as a victim...

I had the opposite problem...my ex seemed to hate sex, she was very vanilla "uptight" and the lack of sex caused issues...I dont get it, Im always ready.[8D] sex relaxes, releases good sensations and puts the soul in a good mood. But it is not the only pleasure in life. If I was married and my wife made me choose between leaving me or having sex with other men, I would literally kick her out of the house. I am sorry if I sound swallow, and true I didnt read most of the thread, but created my opinion on what I read on the last page.
no offense to anyone, just my view on things.[:D]



SusanofO -> RE: Submissive in sexless marriage (6/21/2006 2:47:33 PM)

Actually, I am in therapy trying to resolve how emotionally devastated this man left me (even though he's dead now). I am not sure I will ever have another "normal" relationship (bdsm oriented, or not). I  hate to sound like a big baby, but I am not sure why more people around here just don't come right out and say: I am not mad at you, but - you did hurt my feelings. Why did you do that? I really want to know. Did you think what  you had to say would be:

A). Helpful?

B). Kind?

And it's not big deal, and I mean that. I am 46 years old, I can take care of myself. But my "feelings" do matter (at least to me). You don't know me - at all. I am sorry if you view your situtaion as "the same" as mine. In reality, we are two different people and our situiations are likely as different as night and day. Keep in mind that two peooke are alike and go from there. I am done then with my big "whine" (and didn't mean to sound like a big baby. Or hurt your feelings (really).  I am not looking for anyone to "jump to my defense", either. I just want to drop it (please). I am not quite sure why people think everyone's situations are sometimes identical, because that assumption is ridiculous. - Susan



Reflectivesoul -> RE: Submissive in sexless marriage (6/21/2006 2:55:34 PM)

I have never said that our situations are the same.... but thank you for trying to lay blame elsewhere.... this is again more of the same of what I was talking about. Things dont go one way and it has to be the fault of someone else.
 
Imagine that.....



lisa1978 -> RE: Submissive in sexless marriage (6/21/2006 2:55:54 PM)

I think there are people focusing on symantics and symptoms and not the core problem. The sex drive is a need for many people. How often is the variable. None of the posters who have this problem have complained about not getting laid enough. They have told us they never got sex.

Proprietrix, yes there are other ways to show love to a spouse and it is not all about sex, but for most of us sex is a need on a very deep level of our being. Asexuals do not have this and I respect that, but I doubt asexuals could have a very healthy monamagnous relationship with a person who had a very strong sex drive. I am sorry but sex/orgasms from masturbation are nice but there is for many of us a strong emotional bond created when we make love that cannot be replicated by using a dildo. You just cannot always replace sex with getting flowers.

If you took out sex in these posts and inserted emotional bond or physical security are not there in these relationships my guess is the posts would be different from many people.

Sex is a need that cannot be tossed out of a relationship. It is not about being selfish or casting blame in the end. It is about if a person is happy and content. The person is not anymore selfish in their relationship because they want sex from their spouse and their spouse refuses, then a spouse who will not have sex to help out a need of their spouse they love. Who cares about the assignment of blame, for the women a critical need to them is not being met that at one time was. There is a reason why sexual abandonment is a cause for divorce.




slavejali -> RE: Submissive in sexless marriage (6/21/2006 2:56:30 PM)

quote:


Original: SusanofO
Actually, I gave up after about two years ("pushing, that is. I never really "pushed" my husband for sex anyway - (I cried and whined a bit). But, after that did no good, I gave up and looked elsewhere. Also, I wasn't: Fat, a "bitch", a nag, unattractive or lax in taking care of the house (or my husband, in many ways, for that matter). Nobody is going to convince me this was my fault. You may be a good guesser as to why my situation happened, but - I was actually there...I am not trying to offend you in any way, I am just saying - I really almost went crazy trying to figure out what I might be "doing wrong". I finally figured out the answer: Nothing. -Susan  


That was an excellent realisation to come to....one any abused person must come to. We can be abused in so many ways, lack of intimacy and sexual contact with your sigificant other amounts to abuse in my mind and the effected person will go through the entire cycle that any abused person will go through, blaming themselves, tearing themselves apart trying to find whats wrong with them, lack of self esteem, etc etc etc...until finally one day if they are lucky they will realise, "It isnt me" and start the healing for themselves.




Veryfewcan -> RE: Submissive in sexless marriage (6/21/2006 3:01:50 PM)

Some men find the power of a Woman to be too much for them.
In their inability to deal with that, they go into shells. Its a man thing. He's sub and can't admit it yet. She should just take charge and he will respond.



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