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RE: More Thoughts on Humiliation: A Quote From a Peer R... - 3/5/2013 4:36:55 AM   
xssve


Posts: 3589
Joined: 10/10/2009
Status: offline 		I would submit that you may feel this condescension towards women more keenly than a feminized man does, CP - you've lived with it your entire life. Gender bending men, by contrast, in my observation, are more apt to crave the power that women have, they feel weak and inadequate as men - how many women are looking for a man to submit to financially?

The answer is somewhere between none and absolute zero.

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RE: More Thoughts on Humiliation: A Quote From a Peer R... - 3/5/2013 5:10:29 AM   
ChatteParfaitt


Posts: 6562
Joined: 3/22/2011
From: The t'aint of the Midwest -- Indiana
Status: offline 		Gender blending, to me, is about accepting that all of us are neither 100% feminine or 100% masculine, we all have a bit of both genders in us. After all, an embryo begins as neither male nor female. Very early on a small group of cells, called the "indifferent gonads" begin to form, that are capable of becoming ovaries or testicles.

Around six weeks the embryo begins producing hormones that will eventually determine the sex of the (at 8 weeks we get to call it) fetus.

Which leads one to believe that most of what we consider gender is not down to plumbing but to hormones.

In any case, I can't think of any other reason why a male sub would consider being feminized so humiliating.

If some want to chime in on this, that'd be grand.

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RE: More Thoughts on Humiliation: A Quote From a Peer R... - 3/5/2013 5:41:25 AM   
xssve


Posts: 3589
Joined: 10/10/2009
Status: offline 		You mean someone else? Lol.

You forced my hand: the submissive is desired, the center of attention - the major complaint of submissives, IME, other than fear of being abused, is being ignored - humiliation is attention, and it turns out there are those who find offering that sort of attention endlessly amusing for whatever reason.

Not that there's anything wrong with that, it's why I brought up financial domination: a lot of men, like myself, and I suspect no few women, essentially spend their lives working for the Yankee dollar, until your work is pretty much what you are - the old saying goes, "men do, women are".

It leaves a gap: adolescents complain about nobody appreciating who we are, adulthood is resignation to the fact that few people care who the fuck you are, they mostly care what you can do, and specifically, what you can do for them, "who you are" is irrelevant unless it affects what you do - i.e., fear of being outed, etc., for being recognized and appreciated for who you are when you're off the clock.

Some people go their entire lives without this, in the case of some men, they offer money because that's all they feel they have of worth, it is, for the most part, all the culture at large allows them.

Here, they can prance around in a Tutu and act cute, and they are not escorted out by security - you for example don't want to deal with them because you see it as a reflection on you.

On the other side, it seems to me that a lot of these guys lose interest rather rapidly if they discover all she wants is their wallet, like everybody else, which is being truely objectified.

It isn't the only dynamic I see w/regard to humiliation, but it is one I frequently observe.

Another worth mentioning however, that ties in, is that it can be an escape from the pressure of responsibility - if only for a little while, somebody else can call the shots.

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RE: More Thoughts on Humiliation: A Quote From a Peer R... - 3/5/2013 6:16:30 AM   
ChatteParfaitt


Posts: 6562
Joined: 3/22/2011
From: The t'aint of the Midwest -- Indiana
Status: offline 		Ah, a negative attention thing. Which does presume being female is negative, does it not?

Or am I being dense?

And I didn't mean to imply you shouldn't *also* chime in with your thoughts and opinions, you were already.

(Not that I think anything *I* might say would stop you, or vice versa.



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RE: More Thoughts on Humiliation: A Quote From a Peer R... - 3/5/2013 6:23:21 AM   
JeffBC


Posts: 5799
Joined: 2/12/2012
From: Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ChatteParfaitt
In any case, I can't think of any other reason why a male sub would consider being feminized so humiliating.

I have a thought. My own opinion is that women did the whole women's lib thing and broadened the socially acceptable role for women. Men have not done so. Accordingly, a woman can wear slacks nowadays without being humiliated (something which wasn't always true). Men cannot wear a skirt. The male role (and associated wardrobe) has changed so little that the Victorian costume I wear for my non-profit is actually just a tuxedo, vest and bow-tie. I could've walked into the recent fine-arts fundraiser I was at wearing my "costume" and fit right in. The only part that's changed, really, is the bow-tie. So over 100 years virtually nothing has changed in the wardrobe department. That's pretty damned static LOL

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I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
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(in reply to ChatteParfaitt)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: More Thoughts on Humiliation: A Quote From a Peer R... - 3/5/2013 6:50:56 AM   
xssve


Posts: 3589
Joined: 10/10/2009
Status: offline 		And why not? We do it all the time, if you want to know everything that's conceivably wrong with you, you need only ask a woman.

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RE: More Thoughts on Humiliation: A Quote From a Peer R... - 3/5/2013 7:10:23 AM   
ChatteParfaitt


Posts: 6562
Joined: 3/22/2011
From: The t'aint of the Midwest -- Indiana
Status: offline 		Women were allowed to broader their socially acceptable role, b/c in our culture, being male is to be better. It's perfectly fine for women to wear male clothes, and 'act' male these days. And although I agree this was not always true, women were humiliated for doing such b/c they stepped out of their known place.

You know, it's not that uncommon to find men who still believe females have a 'known place.'

Why is it so humiliating for a male to wear a skirt in this culture? Why haven't men broadened their socially acceptable roles to include more feminine behavior? Because, in my never humble opinion, many believe that to show a feminine side is to show a weaker, lesser side.

And men have been locked into firm gender roles for many centuries now.

I do see some of that changing, that is, more men willing to embrace their feminine side, unfortunately, all too often this seems to be at the expense of their masculine side.




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RE: More Thoughts on Humiliation: A Quote From a Peer R... - 3/5/2013 7:12:37 AM   
ChatteParfaitt


Posts: 6562
Joined: 3/22/2011
From: The t'aint of the Midwest -- Indiana
Status: offline 		You're biases are showing.

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Profile   Post #: 28
RE: More Thoughts on Humiliation: A Quote From a Peer R... - 3/5/2013 7:17:56 AM   
xssve


Posts: 3589
Joined: 10/10/2009
Status: offline 		I suspect with women, it may often be the opposite: they feel inadequate being perceived as nothing but a pretty bauble, they want to feel some real weight - being a sub often entails a lot of responsibility and sub "training" is in a lot of ways, a lot like military training - they don't coddle you, you are issued a hankie for this, use it.

My bitch, for example, is a very accomplished woman with lot of responsibility, she fits more into the male model - maybe she's so damn good she needs help staying humble, I find it gratifying to oblige her - I'm not into receiving, I've had a Greek Chorus going on one way or another pretty much as long as I can remember, but I respond much better to positive feedback.

i.e., there is no singular motivation here, humiliation goes back a ways as a manipulation technique, right up there with guilt to which it is related, both highly popular, although it's uses are not always so benign.



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Profile   Post #: 29
RE: More Thoughts on Humiliation: A Quote From a Peer R... - 3/5/2013 7:20:09 AM   
xssve


Posts: 3589
Joined: 10/10/2009
Status: offline 		You want phone numbers?

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Profile   Post #: 30
RE: More Thoughts on Humiliation: A Quote From a Peer R... - 3/5/2013 7:51:10 AM   
ChatteParfaitt


Posts: 6562
Joined: 3/22/2011
From: The t'aint of the Midwest -- Indiana
Status: offline 		I don't feel inadequate being perceived as nothing but a pretty bauble, I *know* I'm more than that and frankly can't remember a time I didn't.

As far as females needing help staying humble, I'll have to think on that. I do appreciate that my dominant brings out my softer side, and I feel that makes me a more rounded human being. But he doesn't do that y manipulation or humiliation.

Some other dominant might help their female sub enhance their masculine qualities (assertiveness, directness) b/c that's what she needs.

One of the easiest ways to humiliate just about any male is to call him a bitch or a pussy -- both terms used to describe females.



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Profile   Post #: 31
RE: More Thoughts on Humiliation: A Quote From a Peer R... - 3/5/2013 1:26:05 PM   
xssve


Posts: 3589
Joined: 10/10/2009
Status: offline 		Or gay.

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RE: More Thoughts on Humiliation: A Quote From a Peer R... - 3/5/2013 3:34:05 PM   
HarryVanWinkle


Posts: 1720
Joined: 5/8/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: juliahdonna

I was pointing out the gender differences of humiliation. Do you believe that it is inherent in society for the women to be always humbling? And I find it interesting that men are humiliated by being feminized. Is being a female just flat out humiliating for both genders? I don't believe that there is or should be anything humiliating about femininity or masculinity for that matter. Why are females not humiliated by being forced to do manly things? Based on females having XX chromosomes and males having both XY chromosomes females should be the ones humiliated by embodying a male persona since this is messing with their identity more since males are technically already half female. Does that make sense?



No, it doesn't make sense. It's utter balderdash. Balderdash, by the the way, is an old word for BS.

I have a problem with any statements about whole demographic groups that use the word "always". Human beings, and that means both men AND women are individuals, meaning no two are exactly alike. No two think exactly alike, no two behave exactly alike, no two have the exact same tastes, likes and dislikes. And no two find the exact same things humiliating or empowering.

You've been alive for nearly two and a half decades. Do you honestly mean to say that you've never met women who weren't the least bit humble, who weren't in fact, extremely arrogant? If you say that's true, then I have to ask how many women you've met in your life, four, five? I could, although I won't, point out some pretty damned arrogant women on these forums, and thousands of them on the other side, even discounting those "female" profiles who actually are those of men.

"And I find it interesting that men are humiliated by being feminized." Oh really? That's may be true for you and probably true for a lot of other MtF trans. It is most certainly not true for me. It's not true for more than a few male cross-dressers and MtF trans whom I know and consider friends. Quite a few I know find it not only not humiliating, but empowering.

People don't fit in neat little boxes fabricated in your mind. Trying to stuff them into them only leads to a whole lot of self delusion.

(in reply to juliahdonna)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: More Thoughts on Humiliation: A Quote From a Peer R... - 3/5/2013 3:50:31 PM   
HarryVanWinkle


Posts: 1720
Joined: 5/8/2006
Status: offline
quote:



The answer to your question is that culturally women have been treated as weak/inferior in many societies, especially western ones,



Especially western ones? Are you familiar with and old, thankfully now illegal, Chinese practice called foot binding? They would break the bones of a young girl's feet, then wrap the feet in very tight bandages to cause them to grow deformed, so the women would be cripples? I know of no western society that EVER advocated that.

Have you heard of the practice in India, also now illegal, but not entirely wiped out, of forcing widows onto the funeral bier of their husbands and burning them alive?

Have you heard of the practices still very much alive in the Islamic world of clitoral circumcision, literally cutting girls clitorii (clitorises?) off to prevent them from enjoying sex, and very often also condemning them to a life of pain? How about "Honor Killings" (one of the most Dishonorable acts I can think of)? Your sister gets raped. Therefore, your family has been dishonored. BY HER. The only way to restore your family's "honor" is by killing HER.

I'm not denying that western societies are guilty of mistreatment of women, especially historically. I'm not saying there isn't still a lot of improvement that needs to be made in the way women are treated in the west. I AM saying that for at least the last century and more, women have been treated MUCH better in western society than in most of the rest of the world.

(in reply to njlauren)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: More Thoughts on Humiliation: A Quote From a Peer R... - 3/5/2013 4:02:23 PM   
HarryVanWinkle


Posts: 1720
Joined: 5/8/2006
Status: offline 		Sorry, but I have to quibble with this. I know more than a couple of non-professional dominant women who quite enjoy "forced feminization."

I do agree with you that the "humiliating" aspect of it comes from a feeling that somehow women are inferior to men, that feminizing a man makes him somehow "less than a man." Perhaps the fact that I don't feel that women are somehow "less" than men is why I don't find it humiliating in the least.

Or maybe it's because it's just not one of my (legion of) kinks.

I have done it. I've done it because a dominant women wanted me to. She enjoyed it, therefor I enjoyed it. But, I didn't find it humiliating at all. (Edited to add that there was nothing "forced" about it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ChatteParfaitt

There are some male 'subs' who get off on 'forced' feminization and find it highly humiliating. The thing is, this is so derogatory to women that the only femdommes willing to do it are paid pros.




< Message edited by HarryVanWinkle -- 3/5/2013 4:04:50 PM >

(in reply to ChatteParfaitt)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: More Thoughts on Humiliation: A Quote From a Peer R... - 3/5/2013 4:15:52 PM   
HarryVanWinkle


Posts: 1720
Joined: 5/8/2006
Status: offline 		Excuse me while I pick nits again. There were VERY few women in the Congress that passed the 19th Amendment to the US Constitution and not many more in the state legislatures which ratified it. I don't think women's liberation would have ever gotten off the ground without it.

But now, while I vehemently disagree with almost everything xssve has posted here, I find his statements not even to merit arguing. I'll let the thread go by for awhile.

NEXT!

quote:



My own opinion is that women did the whole women's lib thing and broadened the socially acceptable role for women. Men have not done so.


(in reply to JeffBC)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: More Thoughts on Humiliation: A Quote From a Peer R... - 3/8/2013 1:06:22 AM   
xssve


Posts: 3589
Joined: 10/10/2009
Status: offline
quote:


I have a thought. My own opinion is that women did the whole women's lib thing and broadened the socially acceptable role for women. Men have not done so.

Well yeah, they did, it just proved lethal for so many that it rendered the point moot.

< Message edited by xssve -- 3/8/2013 1:09:28 AM >

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