When you know they have been hurt before.... (Full Version)

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MissImmortalPain -> When you know they have been hurt before.... (2/26/2013 1:12:28 AM)

Hello, ladies.

It isn't often that I come here looking for advice but I will admit I'm fishing for a little help now. I have a new boy that is sub, maso, young, and wanting to serve....but I have a problem. I know from conversations we have had that he has been abused in the past. We are working through many of the issues but one of the biggest I am having at the moment is how to get him to stop asking me to hurt him all the time. Don't get me wrong we do some soft play and have even done a little hard play but he wants it all the time and I don't think he understands that he is pushing himself in a way that he shouldn't. I guess I am asking for a general advice free for all here. I don't want to take all play away from him, he would be crushed, but I don't want to do anything close to the same kind of harm he has already faced. Any advice?

*don't say therapy....we are already doing that*




LadyPact -> RE: When you know they have been hurt before.... (2/26/2013 4:42:06 AM)

Are you sure he's not having a bit of sub frenzy? If you're his first regular play partner (meaning that you are his first situation where he's got play on a regular and/or consistent basis) it may just be a case of him having access to play so he asks for it more. Easily controlled as well. You're the Domme, which means you set the pace.




RedMagic1 -> RE: When you know they have been hurt before.... (2/26/2013 4:54:48 AM)

I once had a woman ask me to re-enact her rape, with me as the rapist. Only request I've ever gotten that freaked me out. I talked to several people about it, including Lady Pact who is on this very thread. I eventually declined, but the situation has stuck with me, and I've learned more about it over time.

It's not uncommon to want violence as a way of healing oneself from violence or abuse. You may already know this, and if so, I apologize. I'm just not sure how you came to the conclusion that he wanted types of play he shouldn't. Maybe on some level he is asking for the kinds of things he needs.

Here's a link.

http://www.good.is/posts/how-violent-sex-helped-ease-my-ptsd/




kalikshama -> RE: When you know they have been hurt before.... (2/26/2013 5:52:47 AM)

Another vote for sub frenzy. Hell, I get this with a new partner and have been engaging in pain play for 16 years.

Have you read the endorphin article in this thread: Flogging 101 (and 202) ?




SpyUnderCover -> RE: When you know they have been hurt before.... (2/26/2013 12:43:48 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: MissImmortalPain

Hello, ladies.

It isn't often that I come here looking for advice but I will admit I'm fishing for a little help now. I have a new boy that is sub, maso, young, and wanting to serve....but I have a problem. I know from conversations we have had that he has been abused in the past. We are working through many of the issues but one of the biggest I am having at the moment is how to get him to stop asking me to hurt him all the time. Don't get me wrong we do some soft play and have even done a little hard play but he wants it all the time and I don't think he understands that he is pushing himself in a way that he shouldn't. I guess I am asking for a general advice free for all here. I don't want to take all play away from him, he would be crushed, but I don't want to do anything close to the same kind of harm he has already faced. Any advice?

*don't say therapy....we are already doing that*


I was in a similar situation, and I think there is a fine line to walk between potentially helping him heal, and activities that trigger his past abuse. Hopefully the therapist you've got is kink friendly and open to discussing it. If your guy believes that pain equals love, or that if you're not beating him enough you're not dominating him right, those are good things to sort out in therapy. Beyond that I would regularly reinforce that you're the one in charge, that you call the shots, and he may well not get the amount of pain he wants all the time.

Good luck!
Spy




MissImmortalPain -> RE: When you know they have been hurt before.... (2/26/2013 1:50:15 PM)

That was actually the first thing I thought of, LP. He has had other partners but of course it is the one he was "in love with" that is causing him issues. She is a great deal younger than I am and I'm not sure if she really intended to do harm to him or just didn't know what she was doing at all. A few of the things he has admitted to make me believe she really did want to harm him which is new to me because as a domme mommy I don't often deal with folks that do real harm. Don't get me wrong, I am a sadist, I have made even him bleed....but....I don't know maybe I am looking for something I can say to him that will make him believe in his own self worth? LP, you know some of the issues I had with the ex and that I don't deal very well with people that want to be harmed, hated, rejected, abused, etc. repeatedly. I think I have set more limits in the last week than I have in the last ten years when it comes to play, realationship, time, self speak, etc. I guess I will just keep at it and see where it goes.




MissImmortalPain -> RE: When you know they have been hurt before.... (2/26/2013 2:06:34 PM)

Thank you, Red, for bringing up something that yes I do know a little about but not everything. I have both used and had violence on myself to recover from some things in the past. Without getting to far into it some of the issue has to do with anal sex. He flat out refuses (me catching) because he says it would make me not dominant. He also flat out says he has no wish to have it done to him, infact talking about it brings him to tears. I have no issue with it being a limit for him but he often when trying to make me happy says that I should go ahead and do it anyway. That I should "break him", "force him", "just go ahead and hurt him" so that in the end I will know he can never tell me no about anything. I had this issue with the ex too and I still don't know how to explain to anyone that this (wiitwd) isn't really about that kind of force. That I will not take from someone what they will not give to me to begin with. Any advice on how I might be able to say that in a better way.....or from a guys point of view?




MissImmortalPain -> RE: When you know they have been hurt before.... (2/26/2013 2:09:02 PM)

Yes I did Kali, but thank you for bringing it up, I think I might have him sit down and read it.




RedMagic1 -> RE: When you know they have been hurt before.... (2/26/2013 2:36:38 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MissImmortalPain
That I should "break him", "force him", "just go ahead and hurt him" so that in the end I will know he can never tell me no about anything. I had this issue with the ex too and I still don't know how to explain to anyone that this (wiitwd) isn't really about that kind of force. That I will not take from someone what they will not give to me to begin with. Any advice on how I might be able to say that in a better way.....or from a guys point of view?

First thought:

How about the next time he offers, you strip him, bend him over, spread his legs, then duct tape his anus shut and have him get dressed. Tell him his anus is yours now, and if he wants to use it (take the tape off) he has to get permission. That you'll do whatever you want with that part of his body, and what makes you happy is your ownership of him, not penetration per se.

I don't think it's enough to explain this to him logically. He also needs something to do, a way to endure for you, so he knows he isn't disappointing you by having a limit.

My shot in the dark based on the few paragraphs you wrote.




MissImmortalPain -> RE: When you know they have been hurt before.... (2/26/2013 2:54:17 PM)

Red...that is a great idea, thanks. I was thinking full chastity again but maybe I should narrow it to the one area he is having issues with.




LookieNoNookie -> RE: When you know they have been hurt before.... (2/26/2013 4:37:15 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MissImmortalPain

Hello, ladies.

It isn't often that I come here looking for advice but I will admit I'm fishing for a little help now. I have a new boy that is sub, maso, young, and wanting to serve....but I have a problem. I know from conversations we have had that he has been abused in the past. We are working through many of the issues but one of the biggest I am having at the moment is how to get him to stop asking me to hurt him all the time. Don't get me wrong we do some soft play and have even done a little hard play but he wants it all the time and I don't think he understands that he is pushing himself in a way that he shouldn't. I guess I am asking for a general advice free for all here. I don't want to take all play away from him, he would be crushed, but I don't want to do anything close to the same kind of harm he has already faced. Any advice?

*don't say therapy....we are already doing that*


Ya know what hon...I say, put him where his mouth is. Take him at his word....literally, all the way, but be ready to back off because he may not truly understand what he's asking for.

At some point he's gonna say "that fucking hurts", but for now he's searching....and nothing less than what he seeks will fill his heart. He'll keep seeking it until he realizes what he needs....and it could very well be exactly what he's asking for.

Or not.

Respect that...what he's asking for, give him what isn't offensive to you, but stretch YOUR limits, understanding, his are somewhat confusing. To him.

He needs to fill a gap....and he won't truly understand the distance between reality and fantasy until you give him what he (thinks he) wants.

I don't see this as a "fantasy meets reality" issue, rather, more a fantasy/desire/desperation for control...meets....someone who loves him enough to say "ok....I can go with that...but be aware, there are consequences and....we'll ride them out together".

Help him find....himself.

That, my dear....is love.




Wickad -> RE: When you know they have been hurt before.... (2/26/2013 10:38:39 PM)

(fast reply)

Greetings,

So, ... to begin with, I'm not being fickle or insensitive. Why are you (the OP) even with him?

It sounds a great deal like he is in need of the therapy he is getting and some time to get his head on straight. Why not back off until he is able to form the requisite intent?

Wickad




MissImmortalPain -> RE: When you know they have been hurt before.... (2/27/2013 12:03:34 PM)

I will have to think long and hard about what you said Nookie. Perhaps my fear of doing harm to someone is blinding me to a larger picture.




MissImmortalPain -> RE: When you know they have been hurt before.... (2/27/2013 12:06:37 PM)

I am with him because I care about him.....it is as simple as that. Are you suggesting I end a realationship becaues he has issues, or are you suggesting that I end play until he has worked out his issues?




LadyPact -> RE: When you know they have been hurt before.... (2/27/2013 1:12:30 PM)

A quick note to RM. I'm glad what I said at the time was helpful.

MIP, however you decide to handle this, I'm going to reiterate My stance above. Frankly, you are in charge. You have just as many rights not to engage in activities as any s-type. If you aren't comfortable providing the kind of play that he wants because you feel he isn't ready for it, you're not required to do it.

There's nothing wrong with sitting his tail down and explaining why you are hesitant to do certain things or making it clear that the multiple requests are making you unhappy. OK. He's got past abuse problems. Why does that make him different than any other sub who is asking for play that the D doesn't want to provide? You don't have to cut him off completely. You just have to have boundaries of your own.

Like most dynamics (I would think) clip is allowed to make requests for play or even a certain type of play. However, that's what it is. A request. I'm the person who makes the final decision of whether that is going to happen or not. I'll even go so far as to say that he knows if he bugs Me about it, gets mopey because the play is lacking, or any other behaviors of acting out, that's a good way to make sure it's *not* going to happen.

Let it be known that *you* make the decisions in the dynamic. Whether that's play, pace, or what you are actually comfortable doing.




Wickad -> RE: When you know they have been hurt before.... (2/28/2013 9:20:00 PM)

Greetings,

This took a while to get back to you because I didn't know how much I wanted to share.

The OP stated that her boy is 'new' to her. i am taking this to mean that they are not living together in a long term, committed relationship. Perhaps at this point she might do him more good as a friend than a Dominant/Top. Sometimes caring for someone means doing things that are hard and that nobody likes but having the fortitude and the vision to see how it might be the best choice in the long run.

I do not say these things lightly but rather from my own experiences. Please know that I am not one to go on about my life's woes or to over share about my medical history. Lets just say that I have one - lol. When I was very ill and trying to get myself back together I did a lot of emotional damage to those around me. I alienated and hurt friends and family. Though some folks told me that it wasn't my fault as I was not well, I believed, and still do, that they were wrong. It was my fault. It is, after all, my life so how can it not be my responsibility.

I also know that I had to conquer my demons myself. I would not have been able to grow into the person I am today had I not been forced (sometimes by my own actions) to resolve my problems on my own. The more people that make excuses for the bad behaviour that comes from illness, psychological trauma, addiction, etc. the longer that person will take to get well, in my opinion.

I'm sorry if this is not the answer that the OP was looking for and I'm also sorry if this sounds a bit harsh. It is my opinion that the best thing the OP can do is to give this boy room .... lots of it. I'm not suggesting that you dump him, though that might be a necessary option to consider at some point, but rather to take all the D/s and SM out and simply be his friend. I would also caution to guard your own heart as, like I've already said, emotionally unstable (for whatever reason) folks have a need to selfishly focus on themselves, sometimes to their loved ones detriment.

Wickad




BlkTallFullfig -> RE: When you know they have been hurt before.... (2/28/2013 11:37:30 PM)

I don't see why you couldn't hurt him, without harming him, as often as you are both comfortable doing it. He wants it, and you would do no harm right?

If you want to withold the hurt, because of his history, I don't think Wickad's suggestion of putting some time (without any play), and space between you is unreasonable. So, when he gets better hopefully with the therapy, you will be able to hurt him, with less hesitation, while still aware of his history, so you know when to slow down.

If he wants to be hurt all of the time, and this is making you uncomfortable, I can only agree with LP's suggestion. You're the boss. He is to obey, and follow your rules. He is not to annoy you with constant begging for play, or otherwise behave passive aggressively. Doesn't he know it makes you unhappy, that he constantly wants what you don't?
So, don't end the relationship, but do place play on hold, since you two are not in synch yet. M




njlauren -> RE: When you know they have been hurt before.... (3/1/2013 1:30:28 PM)

I think people have offered some wise ideas, specifically wickedad and Lady Pact. I am coming from this from a slightly different angle, because my experience with this had nothing to do with scene play, but it deals with someone with abuse. My wife (past and future Lady/Domme..) was abused about as horribly as a child can be, both sexual and physical and emotional, and you don't really know how bad it is until they start healing from it or you start seeing why weird shit happened the way it does, and it is powerful. When my wife was working on it, I literally had to hold her up after her sessions were done (I wasn't in them, I was in the waiting room), it was as scary and aweful thing (and if the people who had done this to her had been in this country, I flat out will tell you, I very well could have killed them for what they did, and I am not a violent person). At the time I talked to the therapist we were using and a consulting psychiatrist and asked if role playing and such would help, to re-enact what had happened (again, nothing to do with D/s, among other things, I am sub), and they both told me no fucking way, that I didn't know what I would be facing, that i could see someone literally melt down and go totally psychotic or worse.

I can't tell you in this specific case what to do, nor would I, even if I were a therapist. But while people can and do use scene play to work stuff out, I quite honestly think it could be risky with your boy, whom you obviously care about. You don't know the scope of what happened or the damage, and you could quite honestly end up hurting him worse. I am talking from a different position, and while we never roleplayed, I did see the kind of reactions they are talking about, and I still have nightmares about it, it is probably as ugly a thing as you could ever see. Therapists are trained and they have a had time at times, with someone you love..oye.

It is why both what wickedad and LadyPact made sense to me. If you are the Domme, then it is in your control, and if your gut is telling you this is out of hand, then trust it, more importantly, it is your right. Sub frenzy is a very real thing, but what you are describing may also not be healthy (heck, sub frenzy can get someone who is otherwise emotionally okay into trouble, someone with issues..well, you can imagine). You have the right to decide what happens, you have the right also at times to say no to play, and why. He is in therapy, which means he realizes there is a problem, and therefore he hopefully will listen if you tell him "this isn't the time"..you can still be his domme, but Wickedad may not have a bad idea.

My advice? If the therapist isn't kink friendly, then seek out a kink friendly therapist for a consult (for you, not him), and see what they think a good course is. Ultimately you have to decide, which is true of nay therapists advice, but at least you may feel better with a professional's advice who also understands kink play.

And yeah, I also understand how hard it is, I lived with the results of the abuse for many,many years, uncertain sex life (try having sex with someone, something getting triggered, and them screaming and clawing out you to get the fuck off, then shutting down sexually almost completely), ultimately the loss of BD/SM play for a long time, at times dealing with someone who literally shut down, it is one of the ugliest, saddest things you have to face, not because of the consequences to ourselves alone, but because you love them and have to watch it, and i think unless people have been there,they may not realize it. Sure , you can work out issues through play, but iME those are usually not major ones (could be, that is just what I have seen and believe).

If it were me, having dealt with it as best I could, I would say at this point, if you feel this is unhealthy, it very well could be, and you can be his loving domme and say no, until you know for sure more of what is going on. I wish you well, having known what it is like to deal with someone with issues, it is really hard to figure out what to do and advice, including mine, has to be taken into perspective (like the fucking jerks who told me the answer to my problems was I should be out screwing around, because after all, I had needs......yeah, I did and do, but I also had someone i loved who was going through something horrible, and i also knew that if I did that, I was taking our relationship apart, not putting it back together.......in reality, these were people who were looking for any excuse to screw anything that moved anyway, and I took it as such...)




MissImmortalPain -> RE: When you know they have been hurt before.... (3/3/2013 1:19:14 AM)

I would like to thank everyone for the advice given. I have used many parts of it in the last few days. Starting with a very long talk, my spending time in his home rather than him in mine, my showing him that yes I can truely hurt him if I want to, and a quick trip back to therapy. His therapist (who is kink friendly) sat down with both of us and talked about limits that both of us have to set. Not just me, but him as well. We have a new rule now that basically says every time he wants to be, or feels, hurt he has to hold my hand for ten minutes before he can ask for anything. He then has to say very clearly what he wants and why he wants it. The second half of the rule is that yes I will be the one that decides if anything happens but if I tell him no I have to clearly explain to him why I said no. This seems to be helping for the last few days and I can only hope that it continues to work in the future.

*side note* About ending the realationship.....no, that won't be happening. I understand why it was said, and thank you for the concern, but I am the mommy and I don't give up very easy when it comes to people I care about.




njlauren -> RE: When you know they have been hurt before.... (3/3/2013 5:26:15 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: MissImmortalPain

I would like to thank everyone for the advice given. I have used many parts of it in the last few days. Starting with a very long talk, my spending time in his home rather than him in mine, my showing him that yes I can truely hurt him if I want to, and a quick trip back to therapy. His therapist (who is kink friendly) sat down with both of us and talked about limits that both of us have to set. Not just me, but him as well. We have a new rule now that basically says every time he wants to be, or feels, hurt he has to hold my hand for ten minutes before he can ask for anything. He then has to say very clearly what he wants and why he wants it. The second half of the rule is that yes I will be the one that decides if anything happens but if I tell him no I have to clearly explain to him why I said no. This seems to be helping for the last few days and I can only hope that it continues to work in the future.

*side note* About ending the realationship.....no, that won't be happening. I understand why it was said, and thank you for the concern, but I am the mommy and I don't give up very easy when it comes to people I care about.

It sounds to me like you are doing the right thing, MIP, that sounds like a pretty good plan of action to me:). One of the things people forget is D/s is not just about play, and it isn't just about power dynamics, it also is that both people are in the relationship together, and that the D has responsibility for the s (and the s the D, obviously), and whether play happens or not, is irrelevant, because the relationship is there, it is quite real, as are the power dynamics:). As far as people telling you to split up, there can be a time when it may have to happen, where someone is too fouled up, doesn't want to work on their issues, but that to me should always be a last resort. Cut and running to some seems easy, and I am sure there are those saying "hmm, a D in that situation is not getting anything, therefore the s is useless to them",but that leaves out what you said, that there is a core relationship here that is about the two of you:).I wish you guys well, I think you are handling this in a mature, responsible way, and I hope your s gets to the other side of the issues, and things bloom for you both:)




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