RE: NYC Cop Cannibal Conspiracy Trial

RE: NYC Cop Cannibal Conspiracy Trial (Full Version)

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tweakabelle -> RE: NYC Cop Cannibal Conspiracy Trial (2/27/2013 7:41:41 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl quote: ORIGINAL: thishereboi quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl He said Officer Valle had also been charged with illegally accessing a law enforcement database to gain information about some of the women he was “explicitly targeting.” That, for me, just might take it from fantasy to reality. I missed that part and they can charge him with that, but I am not sure what the sentencing guidelines and how long they can lock him up. As I said, if I were sitting on a jury, that may be enough to tip me from the fantasy line to the reality line. Enough in itself? Not necessarily. But it could tip the scaled depending on other evidence. Yes. For mine, you have identified the critical point - has the accused crossed the line separating fantasy from reality? One wonders what opinions might be expressed if the fantasy/reality had been a (heavens forbid!) pedophile one, or a terrorist one. On the evidence publicly available now, it might be prudent to with hold judgement and re-visit the issue after all the evidence has been properly tested in a court of law.

tazzygirl -> RE: NYC Cop Cannibal Conspiracy Trial (2/27/2013 7:51:39 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: samboct I think she's got grounds for divorce- but not much else. Let's try a somewhat different case- one that's a bit more prosaic shall we? Let's say I'm thinking about robbing a bank. I'm parked in my car across the street from the bank- I've written the hold up note, got duct tape, a bag to carry the money in, black spray paint and I'm wearing a ski mask and gloves. No gun though- why kill somebody over pieces of paper? Have I committed a crime? What happens if I look at myself in the mirror and decide there's got to be a better way to make a living and I don't want to risk jail- drive home, and throw all the stuff away? Should I be prosecuted for thinking about robbing a bank? Conspiring to rob a bank if I enlisted a getaway driver? Or was no crime committed at all? There's a really good movie that deals with the thin line between criminal and hero- Taxi Driver with DeNiro and Jodie Foster. Sam According to this, you would be guilty of a crime. Fred and Barney agree to rob the First National Bank of Bedrock. Without more than just an agreement, most jurisdictions today would not hold Fred or Barney liable for conspiracy. However, if Fred drives the getaway car to the bank and parks it outside the bank so that Barney will have a means of escape, both Fred and Barney would immediately be guilty of conspiracy. (Fred's overt act crystallizes the conspiracy and thus makes Barney guilty as well.) Even if the crime is planned for Wednesday night and on Monday, Fred goes out and buys a gun for Barney to use during the robbery, this would be considered an overt act and both parties would immediately be guilty of conspiracy. http://nationalparalegal.edu/public_documents/courseware_asp_files/criminalLaw/inchoateOffenses/Conspiracy.asp

cordeliasub -> RE: NYC Cop Cannibal Conspiracy Trial (2/27/2013 7:55:35 AM)
quote: Fred and Barney agree to rob the First National Bank of Bedrock. Without more than just an agreement, most jurisdictions today would not hold Fred or Barney liable for conspiracy. However, if Fred drives the getaway car to the bank and parks it outside the bank so that Barney will have a means of escape, both Fred and Barney would immediately be guilty of conspiracy. (Fred's overt act crystallizes the conspiracy and thus makes Barney guilty as well.) Even if the crime is planned for Wednesday night and on Monday, Fred goes out and buys a gun for Barney to use during the robbery, this would be considered an overt act and both parties would immediately be guilty of conspiracy. http://nationalparalegal.edu/public_documents/courseware_asp_files/criminalLaw/inchoateOffenses/Conspiracy.asp Wilmaaaaaaaaa!! Legally, he may not be guilty of conspiracy. Personally, he would scare the crap out of me.

Notsweet -> RE: NYC Cop Cannibal Conspiracy Trial (2/27/2013 8:04:15 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: thishereboi It's a shame someone couldn't have posted a political thread so you could use "the Kenyan", "the chimp" and "Captain Magicpants" in a post that was actually on topic. But I guess as long as you get your daily fix, it's all good. Maybe someday you will get over your obsession with grade school insults, but I won't hold my breath. The more you write, the more I want to bake you a cake to say thank you. Thank you!!

samboct -> RE: NYC Cop Cannibal Conspiracy Trial (2/27/2013 8:05:17 AM)
Hoo Boy Tweak- I like you, but you have an alarming naivete when it comes to courts. Definitions: Prosecutors: venal, arrogant ambitious people who should not be trusted with the life of a gerbil. Judges: Bored individuals and tax collectors wearing robes. They consider their time precious and little else. Jurists: Juries are tasked with finding facts- the judges will apply the law. Juries consist of morons who either are unemployed or unemployable or are looking to get out of work and like lousy food and vomit green decor. Many of these people shop at QVC and buy from telemarketers. Defending attorneys- well, paid, slick individuals who might one day aspire to be used car salesman if they could move several up notches in the world. Those of us who have seen the court system in action first hand hold no such illusions like "properly tested in a court of law". Lawyers/judges are quite happy persecuting witches in previous times, looking for Communists in Boy Scout troops, and claiming that a radar based conviction for speeding is not based on science (the last one I found out first hand....) I've also been called for jury duty a few times and seen the voir dire process in action although I've never been selected for a jury. I've heard judges tell me that the system we've got may not be perfect, but its the best that we've got- a recipe for mediocrity and complacency if ever I've heard one. People of color think the system is stacked against them- and they're right, it is. Being black in a courthouse is an automatic admission of guilt, the notion of innocent until proven guilty is quaintly farcical. Conspiracy is a slippery slope that I think comes from the notion of treason. Our Constitution protects freedom of speech- until it becomes treason, but this is a murky line too. Given how poorly our justice system works- I prefer clear cut evidence of a crime, and internet chat rooms and looking at databases doesn't cut it. Not until there is a smoking gun is it murder...or in this case, a well basted wife..... Sam

LookieNoNookie -> RE: NYC Cop Cannibal Conspiracy Trial (2/27/2013 3:29:30 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML SOURCE The prosecution charges that Gilberto Valle conspired to kidnap, rape and murder his wife and several other women and then cook then and eat them. They contend that discussions on an internet message board and in emails constitute a conspiracy to commit the crimes. The defense argue that it was a harmless fetish fantasy and no crime was committed. The defense raises the issue of freedom of speech and thought. Therefore the state should have no interest. The additional issue to my mind: are some fantasies beyond the pale? Are they so violent and harmful as to constitute a crime in the contemplation? Is Gilberto a menace to society for expressing his thoughts on a fetish board specifically devoted to the particular fantasy? Also, always of interest to me is the question of free will in harboring fetishes. Your thoughts, please. And I thought that my taking left over cat shit, boiling it, sifting it through several layers of cheesecloth, sifting it again through several other devices and then injecting it into my eyeball was strange.

muhly22222 -> RE: NYC Cop Cannibal Conspiracy Trial (2/27/2013 4:05:32 PM)
quote: Let's try a somewhat different case- one that's a bit more prosaic shall we? Let's say I'm thinking about robbing a bank. I'm parked in my car across the street from the bank- I've written the hold up note, got duct tape, a bag to carry the money in, black spray paint and I'm wearing a ski mask and gloves. No gun though- why kill somebody over pieces of paper? Have I committed a crime? What happens if I look at myself in the mirror and decide there's got to be a better way to make a living and I don't want to risk jail- drive home, and throw all the stuff away? Should I be prosecuted for thinking about robbing a bank? Conspiring to rob a bank if I enlisted a getaway driver? Or was no crime committed at all? Let's say a police officer saw you in your car with all of that and the ski mask on while you were parked across the street from a bank. Should he wait until you've actually entered the bank to arrest you? I say no. At that point, you could have been charged with attempted bank robbery. Once you've manifested an intent to commit a crime and taken substantial steps toward completing that commission of a crime, you have to physically manifest an intent to abandon the crime before you can no longer be charged with attempt. Driving away would be a manifestation of intent to abandon. And if you did all of that with a getaway driver...yes, you'd be guilty of conspiracy, because you agreed to a plan to commit a crime and took overt acts leading to that (purchasing the materials, driving to the bank, etc.).

WantsOfTheFlesh -> RE: NYC Cop Cannibal Conspiracy Trial (2/27/2013 5:56:26 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: samboct Let's try a somewhat different case- one that's a bit more prosaic shall we? Let's say I'm thinking about robbing a bank. I'm parked in my car across the street from the bank- I've written the hold up note, got duct tape, a bag to carry the money in, black spray paint and I'm wearing a ski mask and gloves. No gun though- why kill somebody over pieces of paper? Have I committed a crime? What happens if I look at myself in the mirror and decide there's got to be a better way to make a living and I don't want to risk jail- drive home, and throw all the stuff away? Should I be prosecuted for thinking about robbing a bank? Conspiring to rob a bank if I enlisted a getaway driver? Or was no crime committed at all? reckon only tha note would signal intent if found. if there was none then it would be hard ta bring about charges. material evidence ta signal a change of mind would be needed. tha dude would also need something like a weapon to intimidate.

vincentML -> RE: NYC Cop Cannibal Conspiracy Trial (2/27/2013 8:24:41 PM)
~FR~ Today's trial testimony revealed an online chat between the defendant and a guy from England discussing Gilberto's offer to sell a woman and the price on which they settled. They also discussed cooking preferences. I will not repeat the dialogue but here is a link to the SOURCE The last two paragraphs in todays news report are particularly interesting, I think. I will print them here without comment except to say his parents were in court. Good grief! Can you imagine their pain? "Through all the testimony, Valle’s parents and brother sat in the second row of spectators, slumped in the impossibility of finding some appropriate way to be when your nebbishy son comes up a twisted cannibal in thought, if not in action. His family very likely had no idea of his sick fantasies. His wife surely did not until she chanced unto them. Nor did his longtime friends. To consider this and then look at the “cannibal cop” was to face a bigger question than exactly where he had been in the blurring of fantasy and reality. It was to wonder how a woman can ever be sure she really knows a guy." Your thoughts?

Powergamz1 -> RE: NYC Cop Cannibal Conspiracy Trial (2/27/2013 8:32:21 PM)
Yep. While at first glance, the difference between fantasizing a crime, and actually trying to commit a crime might seem significant, it is worth noting that federal prosecutors enjoy something like a 94% success rate in such cases. quote: ORIGINAL: muhly22222 And if you did all of that with a getaway driver...yes, you'd be guilty of conspiracy, because you agreed to a plan to commit a crime and took overt acts leading to that (purchasing the materials, driving to the bank, etc.).

vincentML -> RE: NYC Cop Cannibal Conspiracy Trial (3/12/2013 1:52:32 PM)
~FR~ Gilberto Valle Guilty: 'Cannibal Cop' Convicted Of Conspiring To Kidnap And Eat Women http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/03/12/gilberto-valle-guilty-cannibal-cob-convicted-eat-women_n_2860378.html

Baroana -> RE: NYC Cop Cannibal Conspiracy Trial (3/12/2013 2:12:40 PM)
I don't have time to get into this with you all, but you should look up the jury instructions for attempt and conspiracy.

leonine -> RE: NYC Cop Cannibal Conspiracy Trial (3/12/2013 2:14:40 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: muhly22222 quote: Let's try a somewhat different case- one that's a bit more prosaic shall we? Let's say I'm thinking about robbing a bank. I'm parked in my car across the street from the bank- I've written the hold up note, got duct tape, a bag to carry the money in, black spray paint and I'm wearing a ski mask and gloves. No gun though- why kill somebody over pieces of paper? Have I committed a crime? What happens if I look at myself in the mirror and decide there's got to be a better way to make a living and I don't want to risk jail- drive home, and throw all the stuff away? Should I be prosecuted for thinking about robbing a bank? Conspiring to rob a bank if I enlisted a getaway driver? Or was no crime committed at all? Let's say a police officer saw you in your car with all of that and the ski mask on while you were parked across the street from a bank. Should he wait until you've actually entered the bank to arrest you? I say no. At that point, you could have been charged with attempted bank robbery. Once you've manifested an intent to commit a crime and taken substantial steps toward completing that commission of a crime, you have to physically manifest an intent to abandon the crime before you can no longer be charged with attempt. Driving away would be a manifestation of intent to abandon. And if you did all of that with a getaway driver...yes, you'd be guilty of conspiracy, because you agreed to a plan to commit a crime and took overt acts leading to that (purchasing the materials, driving to the bank, etc.). I don't know about US law, but in UK law "going equipped to steal" is a crime. It's usually applied to burglar's tools, but sitting outside a bank equipped to carry out a robbery should qualify.

tazzygirl -> RE: NYC Cop Cannibal Conspiracy Trial (3/12/2013 2:20:32 PM)
Wouldnt the fact that he took concrete steps make this not a thought crime? I tried to look up what you stated and I cannot find it. Got a link?

FunCouple5280 -> RE: NYC Cop Cannibal Conspiracy Trial (3/12/2013 2:45:56 PM)
Yeah, being in posession of lock picks can get you introuble...I think a lot of it varies from state to state though.

Baroana -> RE: NYC Cop Cannibal Conspiracy Trial (3/12/2013 5:44:12 PM)
This is the criminal complaint: http://www.wired.com/images_blogs/threatlevel/2012/10/Valle-Gilberto-Complaint-Warrant.pdf The main charge was conspiracy to commit kidnapping (federal). A conviction requires an overt act in furtherance of the conspiracy. The complaint named three acts. I don't know if they all were proven. 1. He communicated online with a co-conspirator regarding kidnapping, cooking, and eating a woman. 2. He traveled to Maryland to meet with a victim. 3. He accessed law enforcement databases to obtain personal information on women.

tazzygirl -> RE: NYC Cop Cannibal Conspiracy Trial (3/12/2013 6:26:09 PM)
#3 he was convicted on as well. The NYPD officer was also found guilty of illegally accessing a national crime database to research his potential victims. #1 and #2 Prosecutors countered that an analysis of Valle's computer found he was taking concrete steps to abduct his wife and at least five other women he knew. They said he looked up potential targets on a restricted law enforcement database, searched the Internet for how to knock someone out with chloroform, and showed up on the block of one woman after agreeing to kidnap her for $5,000 for a New Jersey man, now awaiting trial. From the earlier article.

LookieNoNookie -> RE: NYC Cop Cannibal Conspiracy Trial (3/12/2013 7:55:23 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML SOURCE The prosecution charges that Gilberto Valle conspired to kidnap, rape and murder his wife and several other women and then cook then and eat them. They contend that discussions on an internet message board and in emails constitute a conspiracy to commit the crimes. The defense argue that it was a harmless fetish fantasy and no crime was committed. The defense raises the issue of freedom of speech and thought. Therefore the state should have no interest. The additional issue to my mind: are some fantasies beyond the pale? Are they so violent and harmful as to constitute a crime in the contemplation? Is Gilberto a menace to society for expressing his thoughts on a fetish board specifically devoted to the particular fantasy? Also, always of interest to me is the question of free will in harboring fetishes. Your thoughts, please. Amazing. He didn't kill anyone. He didn't cook anyone. He didn't eat anyone that had been killed and or cooked. (What am I missing here?) I think the bigger issue here is that he was a cop. Highly unstable cop.

Baroana -> RE: NYC Cop Cannibal Conspiracy Trial (3/12/2013 7:57:14 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LookieNoNookie quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML SOURCE The prosecution charges that Gilberto Valle conspired to kidnap, rape and murder his wife and several other women and then cook then and eat them. They contend that discussions on an internet message board and in emails constitute a conspiracy to commit the crimes. The defense argue that it was a harmless fetish fantasy and no crime was committed. The defense raises the issue of freedom of speech and thought. Therefore the state should have no interest. The additional issue to my mind: are some fantasies beyond the pale? Are they so violent and harmful as to constitute a crime in the contemplation? Is Gilberto a menace to society for expressing his thoughts on a fetish board specifically devoted to the particular fantasy? Also, always of interest to me is the question of free will in harboring fetishes. Your thoughts, please. Amazing. He didn't kill anyone. He didn't cook anyone. He didn't eat anyone that had been killed and or cooked. (What am I missing here?) That there are more laws on the books than killing, cooking, and eating people. Edit: I skimmed over the second charge, but Tazzy correctly mentioned that in addition to conspiracy the defendant was convicted of unauthorized use of a government database.

kdsub -> RE: NYC Cop Cannibal Conspiracy Trial (3/12/2013 8:27:58 PM)
quote: Being a libertarian, I have to come down on the choice of freedom. I didn't read the article. You really should read it...what he was doing is little different than kids stockpiling weapons and making school threats over the internet. He went past just talking as tazzy has pointed out. Do we wait until kids start killing their teachers and fellow students when there is evidence that they are planning to kill? Then there is no reason we should wait until he kills someone to act in his case. Butch

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