RE: treason?

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Nosathro -> RE: treason? (3/2/2013 7:00:45 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Kirata quote: ORIGINAL: Nosathro Gee a 2003 book on Psychoanalysis... Freud died on September 23, 1939. For example the study of paranoia was first done in 1863 by Kalhbaum [sic] he coined there term paranoia, remember Freud did not graduate until 1881. Kalhbaum [sic] was followed by Krafft-Ebing in 1869, then Kruger in 1917, no mention of Freud and no need to go on. You are simply basing your proof on a book on various treat methods. Kahlbaum did not "coin" the word paranoia. It's Greek, ferchrissake. In Greek literature 'paranoia' and the verb paranoeo were used as loosely as we are accustomed to use 'crazy' or 'out of his mind'. They occur in Euripides, Aeschylus, Aristophanes, Aristotle, and Plato. Hippocrates applies 'paranoia' to the delirium of high fever; several other writers put it in a context where it denotes senile deterioration, justifying action by the patient's son, according to Attic law. However, 'paranoia' did not always refer to madness or dementia, or other severe disturbance, but sometimes meant 'thinking amiss', 'going astray', 'folly'. In any case it was not a technical term, as melancholia was, and was not preserved in medical writings. Its revival in the 18th century, to meet classificatory needs, was therefore practically a re-birth. This was effected by Boissier de Sauvages. Not Kahlbaum, whose name you can't even fucking spell. Lewis, A., "Paranoia and paranoid: a historical perspective," Psychological Medicine, 1970 K. oh so now the Greeks that developed psychoanalysis....now that is interesting.

Powergamz1 -> RE: treason? (3/2/2013 9:02:05 AM)
No it isn't. It isn't interesting, it isn't clever, it isn't honest, it isn't useful. And neither is the lame attempt to tap dance around the fact that you posted falsehoods and tried to pass them off as facts. Again. quote: ORIGINAL: Nosathro quote: ORIGINAL: Kirata quote: ORIGINAL: Nosathro Gee a 2003 book on Psychoanalysis... Freud died on September 23, 1939. For example the study of paranoia was first done in 1863 by Kalhbaum [sic] he coined there term paranoia, remember Freud did not graduate until 1881. Kalhbaum [sic] was followed by Krafft-Ebing in 1869, then Kruger in 1917, no mention of Freud and no need to go on. You are simply basing your proof on a book on various treat methods. Kahlbaum did not "coin" the word paranoia. It's Greek, ferchrissake. In Greek literature 'paranoia' and the verb paranoeo were used as loosely as we are accustomed to use 'crazy' or 'out of his mind'. They occur in Euripides, Aeschylus, Aristophanes, Aristotle, and Plato. Hippocrates applies 'paranoia' to the delirium of high fever; several other writers put it in a context where it denotes senile deterioration, justifying action by the patient's son, according to Attic law. However, 'paranoia' did not always refer to madness or dementia, or other severe disturbance, but sometimes meant 'thinking amiss', 'going astray', 'folly'. In any case it was not a technical term, as melancholia was, and was not preserved in medical writings. Its revival in the 18th century, to meet classificatory needs, was therefore practically a re-birth. This was effected by Boissier de Sauvages. Not Kahlbaum, whose name you can't even fucking spell. Lewis, A., "Paranoia and paranoid: a historical perspective," Psychological Medicine, 1970 K. oh so now the Greeks that developed psychoanalysis....now that is interesting.

Nosathro -> RE: treason? (3/2/2013 5:30:40 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Powergamz1 No it isn't. It isn't interesting, it isn't clever, it isn't honest, it isn't useful. And neither is the lame attempt to tap dance around the fact that you posted falsehoods and tried to pass them off as facts. Again. quote: ORIGINAL: Nosathro Nothing was false. Information is available. quote: ORIGINAL: Kirata quote: ORIGINAL: Nosathro Gee a 2003 book on Psychoanalysis... Freud died on September 23, 1939. For example the study of paranoia was first done in 1863 by Kalhbaum [sic] he coined there term paranoia, remember Freud did not graduate until 1881. Kalhbaum [sic] was followed by Krafft-Ebing in 1869, then Kruger in 1917, no mention of Freud and no need to go on. You are simply basing your proof on a book on various treat methods. Kahlbaum did not "coin" the word paranoia. It's Greek, ferchrissake. In Greek literature 'paranoia' and the verb paranoeo were used as loosely as we are accustomed to use 'crazy' or 'out of his mind'. They occur in Euripides, Aeschylus, Aristophanes, Aristotle, and Plato. Hippocrates applies 'paranoia' to the delirium of high fever; several other writers put it in a context where it denotes senile deterioration, justifying action by the patient's son, according to Attic law. However, 'paranoia' did not always refer to madness or dementia, or other severe disturbance, but sometimes meant 'thinking amiss', 'going astray', 'folly'. In any case it was not a technical term, as melancholia was, and was not preserved in medical writings. Its revival in the 18th century, to meet classificatory needs, was therefore practically a re-birth. This was effected by Boissier de Sauvages. Not Kahlbaum, whose name you can't even fucking spell. Lewis, A., "Paranoia and paranoid: a historical perspective," Psychological Medicine, 1970 K. oh so now the Greeks that developed psychoanalysis....now that is interesting. Information is available. Just because I post an alternative view point does not make it false, only upset those who think their view is the only right one.

TheHeretic -> RE: treason? (3/2/2013 5:45:19 PM)
FR Take the treasonous little punk to his trial, then hang him by the neck until he is dead. He had no idea what all he had, and all this "higher duty" shit is just a load of crap. There are plenty of people in this world who would embrace Pol Pot, if it meant an opportunity to get a cheap shot in at the US military. Tell you what. We'll let him wear a dress to the gallows, if that will help the handwringers feel better about it, and I won't get too concerned about what specific convictions are read, before they drop him

Nosathro -> RE: treason? (3/2/2013 6:20:25 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TheHeretic FR Take the treasonous little punk to his trial, then hang him by the neck until he is dead. He had no idea what all he had, and all this "higher duty" shit is just a load of crap. There are plenty of people in this world who would embrace Pol Pot, if it meant an opportunity to get a cheap shot in at the US military. Tell you what. We'll let him wear a dress to the gallows, if that will help the handwringers feel better about it, and I won't get too concerned about what specific convictions are read, before they drop him Manning is not charged with teason. Yes a soldier is bound by duty to report violations. You sound a little homophobic, and what does Pol Pot have to do with anything he died in April of 1998.

Kirata -> RE: treason? (3/2/2013 6:28:44 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Nosathro Manning is not charged with teason. You finally got something right. K.

TAFKAA -> RE: treason? (3/3/2013 1:11:35 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: jlf1961 quote: Bradley Manning pleads guilty to misusing classified data in WikiLeaks case (Reuters) - The U.S. Army private accused of providing diplomatic cables and other secret documents to the WikiLeaks website pleaded guilty on Thursday to misusing classified material, but denied the most serious charge in the case, aiding the enemy. Source My opinion is that this was treason, and should have been charged as such. No. Bradley Manning is a patriot and should receive the Congressional Medal of Honour. The conduct of the US military - in particular the rules of engagement - occurs under the authority of the civilian government. To my recollection, the USA does not yet live in a military dictatorship. As such, US forces engaging in war crimes are defying the chain of command and engaging in treason against the United States government. Last I heard, the President was Commander-In-Chief, and last I heard, he wasn't giving the US military carte-blanche to engage in murder of civilian non-combatants. The conduct of individual soldiers in the US military is the responsibility of their commanding officer who answers to his commanding officer and so on. At some point, one or more of those officers have decided to conduct the war on their own terms. Bradley Manning discovered treasonous actions by his fellow soldiers and was not supported by his commanders. Those same commanders should be indicted for treason. It obviously became clear to him that the US military is riddled with corruption. And so, to root out that corruption, he exposed it. In doing so, he has done his nation a greater service than most people ever will. And the personal price he has paid has no doubt been phenomenally high. I believe without question, that he has been tortured. The full impacts of his brave action will probably not be realised for a decade. And in time, I believe he will be accorded full honours from a grateful nation, once those implicated by his action are dead or gone. The tragedy is, that he will probably not live to see it. "Perhaps it is a universal truth that the loss of liberty at home is to be charged against provisions against danger, real or pretended from abroad." - James Madison

tweakabelle -> RE: treason? (3/3/2013 2:16:42 AM)
"Heroism is a slippery and ambiguous concept. But whatever it means, it is embodied by Bradley Manning and the acts which he unflinchingly acknowledged Friday he chose to undertake. The combination of extreme government secrecy, a supine media (see the prior two columns), and a disgracefully subservient judiciary means that the only way we really learn about what our government does is when the Daniel Ellsbergs - and Bradley Mannings - of the world risk their own personal interest and liberty to alert us. Daniel Ellberg is now widely viewed as heroic and noble, and Bradley Manning (as Ellsberg himself has repeatedly said) merits that praise and gratitude , every bit as much." writes Glenn Greenwald in 'The Guardian'. http://www.alternet.org/bradley-manning-face-heroism?akid=10131.292804.mA11lv&rd=1&src=newsletter803235&t=3&paging=off Heroism takes many forms. At its core it refers to someone who acts unselfishly for the greater good, while disregarding potentially adverse consequences for her/himself personally. Seen from this perspective, Bradley Manning is unquestionably a hero. His heroism should be lauded, celebrated and rewarded by a grateful nation and planet. The Bradley Mannings of this world are one of our best defences against tyranny and war mongering.

SadistDave -> RE: treason? (3/3/2013 2:35:25 AM)
According to the law, Manning committed an act of treason. We don't actually charge people with treason anymore, though Anyone of the opinion that he was a hero is certainly entitled to believe that. It's a fine opinion even if it has no basis in fact. I'm pretty sure that if you rely on history to prove that your opinion is the correct assessment then you will be disappointed. History won't give a flying fuck about Bradly Manning. -SD-

MrRodgers -> RE: treason? (3/3/2013 6:55:11 AM)
If what Manning did was treason, what did Bush/Cheney do when they outed a CIA Field agent ? That may not be treason after the cold war but an impeachment trial after articles passed in the house should have taken no more than 24 hours. Scooter Libby was the fall guy and I am sure will pay for his 'loyalty' for the rest of his career or what's left of it. Oh, that's right we had only right wing (repub) majorities in both houses...silly me. What was I thinking ?

MrRodgers -> RE: treason? (3/3/2013 7:06:04 AM)
Like I've said...many Americans would make very good and loyal Nazis. To challenge power is the function and definition of the opposition in a democratic republic or if not, as Franklin warned...you'd have lost your republic. Like I've also said, goodbye America...it was nice while it lasted.

MrRodgers -> RE: treason? (3/3/2013 7:08:08 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SadistDave According to the law, Manning committed an act of treason. We don't actually charge people with treason anymore, though Anyone of the opinion that he was a hero is certainly entitled to believe that. It's a fine opinion even if it has no basis in fact. I'm pretty sure that if you rely on history to prove that your opinion is the correct assessment then you will be disappointed. History won't give a flying fuck about Bradly Manning. -SD- I rest my case

PeonForHer -> RE: treason? (3/3/2013 7:24:52 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SadistDave History won't give a flying fuck about Bradly Manning. Very unlikely. At the very least because, according to many, his actions helped to kick off the Arab Spring.

Nosathro -> RE: treason? (3/3/2013 8:12:53 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SadistDave According to the law, Manning committed an act of treason. We don't actually charge people with treason anymore, though -SD- Really, we don't charge people with treason anymore??? you are sure about that? Adam Yahiye Gadahn has been indicted for treason as of 2012, but has not been brought to trial as he remains at large. Tomoya Kawakita, sentenced to death for treason in 1952, but eventually released by President John F. Kennedy to be deported to Japan. Martin James Monti, United States Army Air Forces pilot, convicted of treason for defecting to the Waffen SS in 1944. Robert Henry Best, convicted of treason on April 16, 1948 and served a life sentence. Mildred Gillars, also known as "Axis Sally", convicted of treason on March 8, 1949; served 12 years of a 10- to 30-year prison sentence. Here is something to consider as well Iva Toguri D'Aquino, who is frequently identified with "Tokyo Rose" convicted 1949. Subsequently pardoned by President Gerald Ford.

kdsub -> RE: treason? (3/3/2013 9:11:09 AM)
How can anyone who puts innocents in danger be a hero? He did not think he was putting himself in danger he thought he could get away with leaking secret files with no consequences. He could have publicly protested in support of his beliefs without divulging entrust information if he had the guts to stand by his convictions. He could have protested a specific action without deluging specific information and made his point. I would have respected him then. But no…he gave away sensitive information indiscriminately…some that had nothing to do with his personal beefs. He is a coward not a hero. Butch

JeffBC -> RE: treason? (3/3/2013 9:23:49 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub How can anyone who puts innocents in danger be a hero? You really can't come up with an answer to that question. OK here... I'll give you the breadcrumbs. Start with the assumption that the US is doing some bad, bad things in the world... including to it's own citizens. In point of fact, go with the idea that the US is per-Nazi germany... poised on the cusp. Now imagine someone saying "I need to expose this at ANY cost." Granted, I know you don't agree with the starting premise. But if you did would the rest of the reasoning make sense to you then?

tweakabelle -> RE: treason? (3/3/2013 3:23:10 PM)
A full transcript of Bradley Manning's statement to his court-martial, detailing his motivations and actions can be found here: http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article34146.htm

kdsub -> RE: treason? (3/3/2013 8:23:42 PM)
Yea...below is his reason...after all the bullshit. "In attempting to conduct counter-terrorism or CT and counter-insurgency COIN operations we became obsessed with capturing and killing human targets on lists and not being suspicious of and avoiding cooperation with our Host Nation partners, and ignoring the second and third order effects of accomplishing short-term goals and missions. I believe that if the general public, especially the American public, had access to the information contained within the CIDNE-I and CIDNE-A tables this could spark a domestic debate on the role of the military and our foreign policy in general as [missed word] as it related to Iraq and Afghanistan. " He came to this conclusion after chatting on IRC and personally reading 500,000 messages on WLO. He states..."I then reviewed the messages myself and realized that the posted messages were very likely real given the sheer volume and detail of the content...Oh yea real analyst there...he must think he was Jack Ryan ...What childish crap. Butch

kdsub -> RE: treason? (3/3/2013 8:43:51 PM)
quote: But if you did would the rest of the reasoning make sense to you then? No... there is no excuse in indiscriminately putting my innocent son or daughter in mortal danger when there were and are other recourses and effective methods to follow. I don't care if Hitler himself was reincarnated as President of the united States there was no excuse for treason and divulging information that put fellow citizens and soldiers, just as patriotic as he, in danger. There was and is a better way. Butch

JeffBC -> RE: treason? (3/3/2013 9:02:19 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub I don't care if Hitler himself was reincarnated as President of the united States there was no excuse for treason and divulging information that put fellow citizens and soldiers, just as patriotic as he, in danger. There was and is a better way. On this point you and I will very much need to disagree. If Hitler himself is reincarnated as president then he must be stopped by whatever means available. And frankly, I'd like to know what "better way" you have here. Who would've believed some of the crap in those leaks? I would not have... not without seeing the raw data and getting a feel for how it all fit together into a credible and awful picture. And where was he supposed to go anyway? The fucking government is corrupt. He can't go there.

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