Part of the problem with guns,

Part of the problem with guns, (Full Version)

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DarkSteven -> Part of the problem with guns, (3/4/2013 6:46:22 PM)
as described in the Denver Post, is that city people can't see any use for guns except to kill people, while for rural Americans, guns are a tool just like a hammer or a wrench.

servantforuse -> RE: Part of the problem with guns, (3/4/2013 6:58:28 PM)
I live in a Milwaukee suburb. City people also go hunting. They shoot trap. They collect guns. They are no different than rural residents when it comes to gun ownership. Now the gang members that own guns, thats a different story.

BamaD -> RE: Part of the problem with guns, (3/4/2013 7:01:14 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: servantforuse I live in a Milwaukee suburb. City people also go hunting. They shoot trap. They collect guns. They are no different than rural residents when it comes to gun ownership. Now the gang members that own guns, thats a different story. Rural people (and in this case suburbinites) use guns, gangbangers missuse them.

vincentML -> RE: Part of the problem with guns, (3/4/2013 7:03:03 PM)
City people don't understand the gun culture of rural America. Rural people don't understand the trauma and fear that attends the wanton killing that goes on in our cities. The NRA stokes fear among gun owners with the exaggeration that they have to protect their homes when it seems that more people by far are killed by guns in their own homes than by guns carried by intruders, and by fear that the Govt is comming to get their guns. There is a common ground where the issue can be reconciled.

vincentML -> RE: Part of the problem with guns, (3/4/2013 7:22:21 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: servantforuse I live in a Milwaukee suburb. City people also go hunting. They shoot trap. They collect guns. They are no different than rural residents when it comes to gun ownership. Now the gang members that own guns, thats a different story. According to Gallup 3 in 10 Americans own guns. SOURCE That works out to more than 90 million gun owners. Only 13 million are hunters. SOURCE Hunting is in decline. I can understand target shooting and collecting. I can understand hunting. But I wonder how valid the need for a gun in the home for protection given that many more people are killed by those very same guns rather than by intruder guns.

TheHeretic -> RE: Part of the problem with guns, (3/4/2013 9:06:45 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML But I wonder how valid the need for a gun in the home for protection given that many more people are killed by those very same guns rather than by intruder guns. The phrasing of that statistic seems carefully worked, Vince. Specifically killed by a gun the intruder brings in. Not, beaten up and robbed in a home invasion. Not raped. Not even killed with a knife the intruder brings, or some item in the household, other than a gun. How much more likely is an old woman to be suffocated with her own pillow, than a pillow brought by the intruder? Getting to the question of the OP, yes, Steve. Guns are tools that make living things dead. For your city dweller, they can work very well on vicious dogs, as well as potentially killing people. They are such effective tools for making living things into dead things, that simply the presence of one can be a powerful deterrent to other humans. Merely the sound of the action on a pump shotgun can be all that is needed to send an intruder back out the way he came in. Crazed pit bulls in the city (sorry, JLF, but they are the "savage" breed du jour), and the snakes in my part of the world lack such sensibility. I don't hunt. My idea of sport shooting is taking the 12 gauge to an old TV set out in the desert. Now I can just use a shovel for the snakes (and do, more often than not), or I can physically defend my home with size and strength, righteous rage, and the bottom half of a pool cue, but both are riskier than having the right tool for the job.

Nosathro -> RE: Part of the problem with guns, (3/5/2013 1:04:35 AM)
We are the #1 country in the world when it comes to gun ownership. And we are #10 in the world for violent crime....

tazzygirl -> RE: Part of the problem with guns, (3/5/2013 1:08:40 AM)
#10 according to whom?

TricklessMagic -> RE: Part of the problem with guns, (3/5/2013 7:25:03 AM)
"We are the #1 country in the world when it comes to gun ownership. And we are #10 in the world for violent crime...." Hmm so much of those less gun owning nations are above us. And to backup tazzygirl "#10 according to whom?". Gun ownership is also a regional thing as well. The South, Midwest, and South Midwest (with some exceptions such as Maine, New Hampshire, Vermont, Rhode Island - wait though as liberals from other states are fleeing to there and are demanding the laws be changed to that of their failed states) have very different feelings about guns than those in the Yankee states and California. I personally will never compromise my stance and I believe all gun control laws passed after 1812 are unconstitutional and an infringement on the Second Amendment and should be done away with. If you ever want a laugh about crime in this country watch "Canadian Bacon." There's a great scene were one of the U.S. military types explains why crime is so low in Canada. Since that movie more of those problematic demographics have moved into Canada after finding the dole here in the U.S. less favorable and have caused crime to go up. Granted only slightly but enough to shock some in the Canadian public as I understand. Sorry but the Rodney King riots, and the threatened mess in Sanford by the neo-Black Panthers, taught me never to give up my guns. Plus that whole being Jewish and the Holocaust thing taught me not to give them up either. I teach Jews to shoot anytime I can, and urge them to buy guns any chance I can, because remember when the anti-semites come for you, your goyim neighbors will do jack shit to help you so you better be able to unleash hell on those whom wish to harm you till not one of them is left to live (let God sort them out, he'll know his own). Anytime some liberal (Dem or Repub) says my guns are a danger to the public I believe them. But till they deal with all the other causes of crime, violence, and poverty, I'm not giving up anything and if I'm forced to vote for the Republican party to keep my rights, oh well. My gun rights are more important to me than gay rights, minority rights, or women's rights. All the liberals have to do to get my vote is to stop trying to take away my guns when it's common knowledge that the government is weak, impotent, and cowardly when it comes to stopping evil. Hunting is certainly in decline while gun ownership is growing. Simply because handguns are becoming popular for ownership. Pre 94' the variety of handguns on the market was wide but still limited. Now the variety on the market is immense and it's highly focused towards Concealed Carry as 44 states have gone shall issue on concealed weapons permits. I've helped over a hundred people get their CWP (NRA Pistol Instructor) and the types who want them are normally well normal people who simply want the option. Not right wing nuts or skin heads (the few I've had I've turned away because God forbid). Average folks and even plenty of folks from South Africa and England who have made America their home. So the left can keep suffering their failures and the urban crowd can keep self-victimizing but there are too many of us who know better. http://www.bostonglobe.com/opinion/2013/02/17/the-nation-toughest-gun-control-law-made-massachusetts-less-safe/3845k7xHzkwTrBWy4KpkEM/story.html

Nosathro -> RE: Part of the problem with guns, (3/5/2013 8:00:45 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl #10 according to whom? United Nations Office of Drugs and Crime

vincentML -> RE: Part of the problem with guns, (3/5/2013 8:13:56 AM)
quote: The phrasing of that statistic seems carefully worked, Vince. Specifically killed by a gun the intruder brings in. Not, beaten up and robbed in a home invasion. Not raped. Not even killed with a knife the intruder brings, or some item in the household, other than a gun. How much more likely is an old woman to be suffocated with her own pillow, than a pillow brought by the intruder? Your right, Rich. I stand corrected. The stats for 'home invasion' are pretty obscure because the definition is not settled. So, much of it rests on newspaper headlines which makes the issue problematic for believing either side.

LizDeluxe -> RE: Part of the problem with guns, (3/5/2013 10:15:14 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML I can understand target shooting and collecting. I can understand hunting. But I wonder how valid the need for a gun in the home for protection given that many more people are killed by those very same guns rather than by intruder guns. If we are going to control a right based on need then I think we should apply that same need based model broadly across all rights.

TricklessMagic -> RE: Part of the problem with guns, (3/5/2013 11:40:38 AM)
Brava LizDeluxe, Brava.

Hillwilliam -> RE: Part of the problem with guns, (3/5/2013 11:53:11 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Nosathro We are the #1 country in the world when it comes to gun ownership. And we are #10 in the world for violent crime.... That would seem to point to being high in gun ownership correlates to being significantly lower in crime.

Owner59 -> RE: Part of the problem with guns, (3/5/2013 2:46:19 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LizDeluxe quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML I can understand target shooting and collecting. I can understand hunting. But I wonder how valid the need for a gun in the home for protection given that many more people are killed by those very same guns rather than by intruder guns. If we are going to control a right based on need then I think we should apply that same need based model broadly across all rights. quote: . They shoot trap Ummm ....no...

Yachtie -> RE: Part of the problem with guns, (3/5/2013 3:11:36 PM)
fr Every year hundreds of thousands of Americans use firearms to defend themselves from attackers of one kind or another. Despite the state’s reputation as a frontier state, Colorado’s Democrats are hell-bent on disarming law-abiding citizens and, in particular, women, from being able to defend themselves with a firearm. The latest is state Sen. Evie Hudak who, at a hearing on banning concealed carry on college campuses, told rape survivor Amanda Collins that having a gun would not have done her any good. Collins had just shared her story of survival. Democrat Hudak berated her in response. I just want to say, statistics are not on your side, even if you had had a gun. You said that you were a martial arts student, I mean person, experience in taekwondo, and yet because this individual was so large and was able to overcome you even with your skills, and chances are that if you had had a gun, then he would have been able to get than from you and possibly use it against you … Three Democrats have now loosed misogynistic remarks about rape. Two men, one woman, but all Democrats. Who’s waging a war on women and their right to defend themselves?

SUSSEXDOMMALE -> RE: Part of the problem with guns, (3/5/2013 3:21:58 PM)
I think both sides miss the point Guns for hunting, by the rednecks are all good. 12 bore shot guns, .22 rifles etc are for hunting. BUT Handguns, semi automatic rifles, machine guns etc are not for hunting. There is no logical reason that these can be sold. the stats do not lie Compare the UK (where even hand guns are illegal and the usa. in 2012 the UK has 312 fatal shootings. The USA has 14000+ uk population around 60 million usa population around 310 million On the face of it both are developed to a similar level, and have many things in common. Gun murder rate, thankfully is not one of them

Yachtie -> RE: Part of the problem with guns, (3/5/2013 3:27:01 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SUSSEXDOMMALE Handguns, semi automatic rifles,... are not for hunting. Says who? You?

Kirata -> RE: Part of the problem with guns, (3/5/2013 3:28:29 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SUSSEXDOMMALE rednecks Another Carnegie graduate getting off to a good start. K.

epiphiny43 -> RE: Part of the problem with guns, (3/5/2013 3:42:13 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DarkSteven as described in the Denver Post, is that city people can't see any use for guns except to kill people, while for rural Americans, guns are a tool just like a hammer or a wrench. Not really. SOME city people can't imagine defending themself. And urban hunters, gun sports and such are far more numerous than publicized. Note the opinion polls on the NY governor since his gun ban stand? Those in the more economically disadvantaged neighborhoods, for instance, as well as many others suffer no such illusions. Most gun use statistics depend on law enforcement stats of weapon discharges and wounded/dead people. Gun use for home defense is far more often successful if NO weapon is fired. The only serious scientific attempt to quantify this (No way gun banners/CDC/Handgun Control Inc., want to know if guns work! Find support and disrespect opposing studies?) has been work by Gary Kleck, a trained scientist with a predisposition to Not value guns for defense, but an open mind and careful protocols. His work suggests home ownership is far more successful in preventing crime than anyone dreamed. Think carefully. In cities where police look on armed homeowners as highly suspect (ANYbody else with guns, generally) and police work tends to get the complainers persecuted as 'rats', who calls the police to say someone tried to get in my house but ran when they saw my handgun/shotgun/rifle pointed at them? Nobody who didn't fall off the turnip truck this week. Once there is blood on the ground and possibly a body, are police called. THEN the incident shows up on our national data bases. Other than a few hysterics like Mr. Pistorious claims to be, most humans decline to fire on other humans if there is any chance the situation might turn around before someone dies. Mr. Kleck's estimates come to over a million successful home/personal defense incidents a year in the US, IIRC. He's easily found on the internet for those who want to inspect his interview methods, criteria and conclusions.

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