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RE: just a thought, a question, and me - 3/9/2013 11:08:38 AM

Dyfrynt

Posts: 202
Joined: 4/19/2011
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This is one of those it-only-matters-what-you-think questions. A M/s situation where the needs of the Master is everything; the needs of the slave are ignored can work or it can not. If the slave's only desire is to fulfill the needs of the Master, irrelevant of their own; that will work. The slave's needs are being fulfilled by her choice to fulfill her Master's.

In my experience that is kinda rare though. For the most part, slaves do have needs of their own, and the above situation would be completely unhealthy for such a slave who has their own needs as well.

The relationship between me and my slave, just as an example - she has needs to satisfy my desires, and she has needs of her own as well. The power exchange here is that I decide when her needs will be met. But, and this is the Big But, she knows that her needs will indeed be met. She trusts me to take care of her as well as I take care of myself.

Bottom lining it, don't let a Master/Dom tell you that your needs are not relevant in a M/s relationship. Because that is bull-turkey! If a Master is only willing to see to his own needs, that is not the Master for you.

(in reply to TheLilSquaw)

Post #: 21

RE: just a thought, a question, and me - 3/9/2013 12:25:56 PM

HarryVanWinkle

Posts: 1720
Joined: 5/8/2006
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~FR~

Under most conditions, I would argue your use of the word "should" in the phrase "every relationship should be symbiotic", as I don't think it's the place of anyone to say what other people's relationships "should" be like.

But, in this particular case, I pretty much agree with you, even though that "should" kind of bothers me. Lots of people have relationships in which they claim the sub has "no rights", or it's "all about" the dom.

While it doesn't bother me that people make such claims about their relationships, I still find myself, at least in my own mind, calling BS. In civilized countries you cannot legally give up your rights, therefore the sub always has the right to leave the relationship, the right to withdraw consent.

And, I've always maintained that any relationship dynamic that does not fulfill the needs of both/all of the people involved is not going to work out in the long run. So, while it might not seem obvious, and people in an d/s relationship might claim that it's all about the dom and only the dom's wants matter, if the relationship is going to last, the sub's needs are, in fact, just as important as the dom's.

quote:

ORIGINAL: breagha

Hi all!

i've been giving some thought to relationships. Mostly relationships in general, though i have the tendency to look at them from an M/s point of view. In conversations with people i have come across many that feel the relationship is about what the M needs and the things the s needs are not important. My thoughts are... every relationship should be symbiotic. M gets what they need and in turn s does as well. it seems rather pointless to enter into or continue with a relationship where you do not get fulfillment of your personal needs. From an s point of view your personal needs may not be more important than those of M... but they still matter right?

(in reply to breagha)

Post #: 22

RE: just a thought, a question, and me - 3/9/2013 1:01:00 PM

JeffBC

Posts: 5799
Joined: 2/12/2012
From: Canada
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: HarryVanWinkle
But, in this particular case, I pretty much agree with you, even though that "should" kind of bothers me.

I understand but I think this "should" is different than most. This is like saying, "Pi should equal 3.1415926...." (rather than dumbing it down to 3).

Note we are not saying what either party's needs "should" be. We are only saying that whatever they are, they need to be met. I don't think this is trying to dictate what other's relationships should look like. Rather it's stating some basic common sense about human nature.

Humans are complex. All of us have needs, wants, and desires. All of get pretty cranky when enough of those things are not met. If you suck enough life out of a human without replacing it from somewhere eventually that human (and any relationships they are in) break.

I'm open to someone actually demonstrating a long-term relationship wherein one party has none of their needs, wants or desires being met. But so far, nobody has ever demonstrated such a thing to me so I'm sticking with common sense.

_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

(in reply to HarryVanWinkle)

Post #: 23

RE: just a thought, a question, and me - 3/9/2013 1:08:23 PM

Focus50

Posts: 3962
Joined: 12/28/2004
From: Newcastle, Australia
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: breagha

Hi all!

i've been giving some thought to relationships. Mostly relationships in general, though i have the tendency to look at them from an M/s point of view. In conversations with people i have come across many that feel the relationship is about what the M needs and the things the s needs are not important. My thoughts are... every relationship should be symbiotic. M gets what they need and in turn s does as well. it seems rather pointless to enter into or continue with a relationship where you do not get fulfillment of your personal needs. From an s point of view your personal needs may not be more important than those of M... but they still matter right?

I'm not just the big bad dom who wants/expects/gets his needs serviced and seen to by my girl, I also have this stubborn male pride that says I take care of business at home when it comes to her wants and needs, too. And it seems to me that when one partner strays outside of a relationship (vanilla or D/s), it's because some need isn't being met within....

My needs can only be fulfilled by a fem/sub type (the *right* fem/sub, of course) but I don't believe in that malarky of the "gift of submission". Fem/subs identify as such (IMO) because they have needs as individually unique as my own; needs that are "opposite" but complementary to mine - heads n tails of the same coin.

And speaking of relationships per se', yeah, I often see a D/s aspect in most vanilla relationships. Of course it's not formalised or even agreed to etc, but more often than not one will take charge and/or make final decisions. When we were kids, dunno how many times I heard dad say "ask your mother" when we wanted something. And I still see that sort of deferral today (not just about kids) in the vanillas I know. Maybe it was because dad couldn't be bothered or didn't give a shit about certain kid stuff, but that's not what impressionable kids remember decades later, esp after finding D/s....

Fem/subs are my idea of "normal" - and thus desirable. Their unique D/s needs is what sets them apart from vanillas and piques my equally unique interest....

Focus.

_____________________________

Never underestimate the persuasive power of stupid people in large groups. <unknown>

Your food is for eating, not torturing. <my mum> (Errm, when I was a kid)

(in reply to breagha)

Post #: 24

RE: just a thought, a question, and me - 3/9/2013 2:43:03 PM

seekingreality

Posts: 599
Joined: 8/11/2011
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quote:

ORIGINAL: breagha

Hi all!

i've been giving some thought to relationships. Mostly relationships in general, though i have the tendency to look at them from an M/s point of view. In conversations with people i have come across many that feel the relationship is about what the M needs and the things the s needs are not important. My thoughts are... every relationship should be symbiotic. M gets what they need and in turn s does as well. it seems rather pointless to enter into or continue with a relationship where you do not get fulfillment of your personal needs. From an s point of view your personal needs may not be more important than those of M... but they still matter right?

Ideally both people are getting what they need from a relationship. If one isn't, I don't know why they'd stick around, whether they are the sub or the dominant.

(in reply to breagha)

Post #: 25

RE: just a thought, a question, and me - 3/9/2013 4:08:50 PM

HisPet21

Posts: 395
Status: offline

quote:

We made ourselves a unit. Now there is "our needs". ALL of "our needs" are important to us. As long as your thinking in terms of some sort of zero sum game where you balance off your needs against his needs then you are doomed to some sort of adversarial relationship.

I really, really like this perspective and I totally agree with it. I think this may be a much better way to approach a long term, committed relationship than what I described earlier, and it takes away a lot of the potential problems/ conflicts of interest often associated with a power exchange dynamic. I hope you don't mind if I steal it, lol. :)

(in reply to seekingreality)

Post #: 26

RE: just a thought, a question, and me - 3/9/2013 7:50:48 PM

breagha

Posts: 380
Joined: 7/29/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: HarryVanWinkle

~FR~

Under most conditions, I would argue your use of the word "should" in the phrase "every relationship should be symbiotic", as I don't think it's the place of anyone to say what other people's relationships "should" be like.

i didn't mean to make it sound like i am telling people what their relationships should be. i used that word because it is my opinion that relationships should be symbiotic as opposed to parasitic.

_____________________________

"Consumed with memories that preceded today; given a chance to bereave life that's slipping away"

(in reply to HarryVanWinkle)

Post #: 27

RE: just a thought, a question, and me - 3/9/2013 9:32:04 PM

littlewonder

Posts: 15659
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

So be careful to note who's viewpoint you are reading. The view from the s-chair isn't the same as the view from the d-chair.

I have to agree with this. Had Master responded to this thread he would have said that it is a "we" thing like he always does and while yes, I know it's a "we" thing, I am always putting him above everything else in my life, even at times over my daughter's because she's an adult. So for me personally, it IS all about him.

Master is responsible for us both though so like Jeff, he has more on his plate and so for him it's going to be just as much about me as him but he also knows that if he has to choose his desires over mine...yup, he's gonna choose His, and I'm ok with that.

<most of the time.

>

_____________________________

Nothing has changed
Everything has changed

(in reply to JeffBC)

Post #: 28

RE: just a thought, a question, and me - 3/11/2013 9:03:06 AM

JeffBC

Posts: 5799
Joined: 2/12/2012
From: Canada
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder
I have to agree with this. Had Master responded to this thread he would have said that it is a "we" thing like he always does and while yes, I know it's a "we" thing, I am always putting him above everything else in my life, even at times over my daughter's because she's an adult. So for me personally, it IS all about him.

You two actually taught me that. I'd read one too many "it's all about him" posts from you. Those posts didn't add up with the sense of security you also talk about so I went ahead and said something/asked something blunt about it. Kana, not surprisingly, was right there with a "Woah Tex..." sort of response.

Carol is the same way. From her standpoint it's all about me and she sacrifices, etc. From my standpoint things aren't nearly that simple and I find an awful lot of the commands I give have nothing to do with "what I want". For instance, I've bent a lot of my dominance recently on getting her started as a professional artist. There was much kicking, screaming, and dragging of feet going on. I've made jokes on these boards about how awful it is to command an artist about their art and I'd never collar an artist again. If it was all about me she'd be working an AA job. She'd be less fulfilled and I be less bruised LOL.

_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

(in reply to littlewonder)

Post #: 29

RE: just a thought, a question, and me - 3/11/2013 5:40:59 PM

LadyPact

Posts: 32566
Status: offline

A fast reply from the other side of the kneel.

Before anything else, I want to put something out there. Quite often, people transpose the words "need" and "want" at their discretion. They honestly don't have the same definition. Needs are the things that a person must have to sustain. Wants are those things that they would like to have, but aren't especially necessary. This doesn't mean that 'wants' to make our lives and our relationships happier and brighter. It just means that wants not being fulfilled aren't going to mean an end.

With that said, if a human's needs are not being met, food, clothing, shelter, medical care........ Yeah, GTFO. That's probably not really what you are asking though.

Since you probably really are talking about wants, let Me assure you that most people, even Dominants, don't always get all of their wants met. Hey, I want it to be 70 degrees F outside right now. It's not. I can't command it and My boy can't provide it. At the same time, I'm not going to cease living or be unhappy without it.

What some people skip in talking about needs and wants is how important they really are to them. From there, part of the deal is to start setting priorities. (Something I consider to be a Dominant's job if they are in charge of the relationship.) If I want something, but it's going to be damaging to the relationship, well, I've got a choice to make. In our house, clip wants to be of service. On the other hand, I like to be the person making dinner. Which is more important? I have a demo to present but clip has to be somewhere else? I get a demo bottom, even though I would have preferred clip in that spot.

Now, unless you are into some form of drudgery, everybody enjoys their wants coming to fruition at least some of the time. Unhappy slaves don't remain in dynamics very long. Something in there has to feed their nature. If I denied clip all forms of service, he wouldn't be happy, even though I like doing most things for Myself. (I call this 'accepting service with grace' but that's another topic.) Knowing that he wants to do things for Me comes into play in making My decisions about who does what.

It's not a matter of the M's need/wants being more important. It's honestly about which 'want' is most important when looking at the big picture.

_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

(in reply to JeffBC)

Post #: 30

RE: just a thought, a question, and me - 3/11/2013 6:36:10 PM

breagha

Posts: 380
Joined: 7/29/2012
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

A fast reply from the other side of the kneel.

Before anything else, I want to put something out there. Quite often, people transpose the words "need" and "want" at their discretion. They honestly don't have the same definition. Needs are the things that a person must have to sustain. Wants are those things that they would like to have, but aren't especially necessary. This doesn't mean that 'wants' to make our lives and our relationships happier and brighter. It just means that wants not being fulfilled aren't going to mean an end.

With that said, if a human's needs are not being met, food, clothing, shelter, medical care........ Yeah, GTFO. That's probably not really what you are asking though.

Since you probably really are talking about wants, let Me assure you that most people, even Dominants, don't always get all of their wants met. Hey, I want it to be 70 degrees F outside right now. It's not. I can't command it and My boy can't provide it. At the same time, I'm not going to cease living or be unhappy without it.

What some people skip in talking about needs and wants is how important they really are to them. From there, part of the deal is to start setting priorities. (Something I consider to be a Dominant's job if they are in charge of the relationship.) If I want something, but it's going to be damaging to the relationship, well, I've got a choice to make. In our house, clip wants to be of service. On the other hand, I like to be the person making dinner. Which is more important? I have a demo to present but clip has to be somewhere else? I get a demo bottom, even though I would have preferred clip in that spot.

Now, unless you are into some form of drudgery, everybody enjoys their wants coming to fruition at least some of the time. Unhappy slaves don't remain in dynamics very long. Something in there has to feed their nature. If I denied clip all forms of service, he wouldn't be happy, even though I like doing most things for Myself. (I call this 'accepting service with grace' but that's another topic.) Knowing that he wants to do things for Me comes into play in making My decisions about who does what.

It's not a matter of the M's need/wants being more important. It's honestly about which 'want' is most important when looking at the big picture.

Thank you for your reply Lady Pact. i am one of those people who tends to transpose want and need on occasion. i realise that the need that is being unmet here is a want. i also realise that it is a fairly big want, one that could eventually end my relationship if it continues to go unmet. i know that i will indeed survive ( not matter what way my relationship goes ).

your post made me think further though... what of emotional need? is that just a want? i'm generalizing this to be in all relationships and not just a love/romantic relationship. Psychologically we, as human beings, tend to thrive and develop/grow better when there is an emotional bond present in our lives. there have been many studies done on how important nurturing and bonding with other people actually is to our well being.

i referenced earlier a moment where i said i needed him to be there for me ( when my dog died, a very intense and emotional time for me ). i would have gotten through the ordeal without his presence. it would have been a lot harder to deal with though had he said that this particular need ( want? ) wasn't important enough for him to actually be there for me.

i welcome your ( and everyone else's ) thoughts on this.

_____________________________

"Consumed with memories that preceded today; given a chance to bereave life that's slipping away"

(in reply to LadyPact)

Post #: 31

RE: just a thought, a question, and me - 3/11/2013 7:28:12 PM

Arturas

Posts: 3245
Status: offline

quote:

My thoughts are... every relationship should be symbiotic. M gets what they need and in turn s does as well. it seems rather pointless to enter into or continue with a relationship where you do not get fulfillment of your personal needs. From an s point of view your personal needs may not be more important than those of M... but they still matter right?

sym·bi·o·sis
1.mutually beneficial relationship: a cooperative, mutually beneficial relationship between two people or groups

Synonyms: cooperation, interdependence, relationship, association, synergy, interaction

es·sence
1.identifying nature: the quality or nature of something that identifies it or makes it what it is
2.most important feature: the most important element or feature of something
3.perfect form: the perfect or idealized form of something, especially when embodied in a person

Synonyms: spirit, core, heart, crux, kernel, soul, quintessence, principle, substance, lifeblood

Yes. Exactly. Every long lasting M/s relationship is a romance and love story between two different interdependent people in essence and is a give and give, not give and take relationship, it is a symbionic relationship, it is a ying and yang relationship. Do you not agree? Even in the Gorean novels there is the concept of the "perfect master" and in most all cases this was a tale of love, of a master and slave deeply in love. Do you reach out and lightly touch him in the night or even clutch his shirt in your soft tiny hands physically demonstrating your needs fullfilled even while he sleeps unknowing?

< Message edited by Arturas -- 3/11/2013 7:31:27 PM >

_____________________________

"We master Our world."

(in reply to breagha)

Post #: 32

RE: just a thought, a question, and me - 3/11/2013 8:29:09 PM

littlewonder

Posts: 15659
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

quote:

ORIGINAL: TieMeInKnottss
Does the M get whatever he wants? probably.

Only in some magical fairy-tale does this occur.

Or, failing that, I'm not simply doing it wrong... I'm doing it WAY, WAY, WAY wrong -- as was every leader I have ever respected in my entire life.

And all this time, I've been giving Master anything he wants.

_____________________________

Nothing has changed
Everything has changed

(in reply to JeffBC)

Post #: 33

RE: just a thought, a question, and me - 3/12/2013 12:52:43 AM

TieMeInKnottss

Posts: 1944
Joined: 9/6/2012
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder

quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

quote:

ORIGINAL: TieMeInKnottss
Does the M get whatever he wants? probably.

Only in some magical fairy-tale does this occur.

Or, failing that, I'm not simply doing it wrong... I'm doing it WAY, WAY, WAY wrong -- as was every leader I have ever respected in my entire life.

I usually agree with Jeff...and, at first, I thought I must be screwed up but the more I think about it...I stand by what I said. You as the Dom might not SEE it but from my standpoint as the sub...I WANT him to get what he wants, I get something out of putting him above me (think about it from something silly..if you want the toilet paper to roll over & not under but Carol likes it under & not over...who is most likely getting their way? Which one of you will acquiesce first just to make the other person happy?) I find that there is little to me that is more important than pleasing someone who I love & appreciate for the things he does for me. So, maybe I do live in a magical world...

(in reply to littlewonder)

Post #: 34

RE: just a thought, a question, and me - 3/12/2013 7:38:24 AM

JeffBC

Posts: 5799
Joined: 2/12/2012
From: Canada
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder
And all this time, I've been giving Master anything he wants.

*nods* But if you were to ask Kana whether being in charge is an undiluted joy where he gets to consider his needs and his needs only and therefor gets "anything he wants" my guess is that you'd find a different answer.

edited to add a specific example from our life
If I got "whatever I wanted" I can guarantee you that I woudn't have spent the last few years dragging her by her fucking leash with her heels dug in the whole damned way into being a pro-artist. That has nothing to do with what I want and everything to do with "what I believe is good for her". I've got a fair number of battle scars for my efforts. If I didn't give a rats ass about Carol then she'd be making more money right now as some administrative assistant type and I'd be stressing less about both money and her resistance. But I DO care about Carol and so I do think about things that go beyond my own wants. So does any leader I'd bother to respect. I groove on leaders who like to shoulder the responsibility that goes with authority. I find the other kind "corrupt" which is contemptible in my eyes.

YMMV.

< Message edited by JeffBC -- 3/12/2013 7:45:33 AM >

_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

(in reply to littlewonder)

Post #: 35

RE: just a thought, a question, and me - 3/12/2013 7:28:06 PM

kalikshama

Posts: 14805
Joined: 8/8/2010
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

Speaking only for myself and Carol, we don't think in terms of my needs and her needs. We made ourselves a unit. Now there is "our needs". ALL of "our needs" are important to us. As long as your thinking in terms of some sort of zero sum game where you balance off your needs against his needs then you are doomed to some sort of adversarial relationship. Carol and I are on the same team and we work together to get everyone's needs met.

When I am making decisions the measuring stick I use is "maximizing OUR happiness". It has nothing to do with "me" or "her". It'd be pointless for me to even think that way. There is no way I could be happy if she was not.

awwwwwwwwwwws!

_____________________________

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(in reply to JeffBC)

Post #: 36

RE: just a thought, a question, and me - 3/13/2013 7:12:01 PM

littlewonder

Posts: 15659
Status: offline

Jeff, I would say that most of the time he has "us" as his responsibility but I can say there are maybe just as many times when it is about what he wants, when he wants, where he wants when it comes to me (outside of us is not always at his control).

For example, I really had no desire to really start going back to work again. I asked him if I could take off the first year when I moved here. He allowed that. But then he kept getting on my case to look for a job after that year. And now I'm glad because I now have a great job that I just started this week and so far it's the best job I've ever had and I love it. And that makes him just as happy and helps to stabilize us both, even though I hate that until I fall more into a routine and schedule, we don't get to see each other as much, but that will eventually settle down.

And an example of him getting what he wants would be something like he gets the remote, he gets what he wants for dinner, he gets sex anytime he wants of course, he gets whatever chores done that he wants whether I feel like it or not, he tells me when we go to bed because my lying next to him helps him to sleep (he wakes up most of the time if I get up), etc...

But one could say my getting this job was for him as well because he likes a woman who works, who takes responsibility, knows what she's doing, who is capable. Is it for him? Is it for me? Is it for us? I would say all three.

_____________________________

Nothing has changed
Everything has changed

(in reply to kalikshama)

Post #: 37

RE: just a thought, a question, and me - 3/14/2013 12:46:24 PM

JeffBC

Posts: 5799
Joined: 2/12/2012
From: Canada
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder
Is it for him? Is it for me? Is it for us? I would say all three.

That's generally how it is for me. It's really not possible to separate the three in most cases.

quote:

ORIGINAL: kalikshama
awwwwwwwws!

LOL, that photo is SO us. And check out the big bad top kitty there. I can almost hear it.. "You're mine... so lay there and be snuggled"

_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

(in reply to littlewonder)

Post #: 38

RE: just a thought, a question, and me - 3/14/2013 6:02:31 PM

Nslavu

Posts: 342
Joined: 2/1/2010
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: breagha

Hi all!

i've been giving some thought to relationships. Mostly relationships in general, though i have the tendency to look at them from an M/s point of view. In conversations with people i have come across many that feel the relationship is about what the M needs and the things the s needs are not important. My thoughts are... every relationship should be symbiotic. M gets what they need and in turn s does as well. it seems rather pointless to enter into or continue with a relationship where you do not get fulfillment of your personal needs. From an s point of view your personal needs may not be more important than those of M... but they still matter right?

quote:

My thoughts are... every relationship should be symbiotic.

The notion of symbiosis assumes the M/s dynamic remains in tact. Surely that matters most here. It's the primary need/want of the relationship.

Determination of needs and the allowance for wants within the dynamic are set by the M. In that light the s has to assume their needs will be met as and when the M determines they will be met if at all, for their (and our) best interest. If the s assumes otherwise then I expect they want something other than submission at any point that they've pointed their focus at their own needs. Human for sure but ...

Slaves submit on the basis of surrendering to their M's decisions, no matter what the subject or how tangential one's needs and wants get. I'm not discounting any discussion of needs if that's provided for by the M, but the provision for them or not, is M territory as well. I suspect for most the s's needs and wants matter unless they get to a point of becoming demands, whinging etc.

My answer to the question in my best M voice- "Is it the point to find the guy who will give you everything or is it to find the guy that you can give your everything to?" Assuming the nature of symbiosis within M/s dynamic, the answer seems clear to Me. Anything else, no matter how well intentioned, obfuscates the dynamic.

_____________________________

I used to love anal until I ran into people who's heads I had to remove first.

(in reply to breagha)

Post #: 39

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