Collarspace Discussion Forums


Home  Login  Search 

RE: How much challenge do you enjoy from a sub?


View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
 
All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Ask a Master >> RE: How much challenge do you enjoy from a sub? Page: <<   < prev  1 [2] 3   next >   >>
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
RE: How much challenge do you enjoy from a sub? - 3/17/2013 10:19:11 AM   
Lilly425


Posts: 19
Joined: 11/3/2012
Status: offline
Thanks everyone for your feedback which reassures me that contrived challenge is not only unnecessary but is typically unwanted (depending on the person I understand). Challenge is the last thing that I want in a relationship, and while I expect some to arise naturally, I have no interest or intent in challenging him just for the sake of challenge. A hot bedroom scene is great but what I’m hoping to find is stability, comfort and even predictability in a true partnership that leads to a happy life. If this isn’t what he wants or if my willingness bores him, then I’m prepared to accept that we aren’t compatible and move on. I was just curious on others’ thoughts around this. Thanks again!

(in reply to OsideGirl)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: How much challenge do you enjoy from a sub? - 3/17/2013 10:22:20 AM   
misanthropicdom


Posts: 27
Joined: 9/13/2012
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lilly425

Not sure if I can express my question clearly, but I’ll give it my best shot.


First, let me say you've expressed yourself extremely well. Your writing is well thought out, and your question clearly comes from a place of previous (vanilla) experience.

quote:


I still struggle, however, with the ideas that have been ingrained in me that I shouldn’t be too “easy” or too accommodating in a relationship – that I should play “hard to get” because men want a challenge...My concern is that he’ll get bored with me if I always do as he asks so willingly. I don’t want to create artificial challenge but I also don’t want him to lose interest...I’m curious to hear from other Doms as to how you feel about your sub willingly doing as asked with little to no challenge. Does this get boring for you?


Playing "hard to get" is a very vanilla concept, perhaps something your mother or aunt or Cosmo magazine tried very hard to force into your head. It's bullshit. It's always been bullshit. It has been my experience that women who consistently play "hard to get" eventually spend a lot of time alone, taking to their cats.

As a Dom, I enjoy intellectual challenge from a smart sub, and I sometimes enjoy a minuscule amount of playful "resistance", but a sub who consistently goes out of her way to be challenging or modify orders because she thinks she knows better is very quickly an ex-sub. I won't have it.

For me, a D/s relationship is being with a sub who is obedient, even when she doesn't like or is frightened of what I ask her to do. Obedience is easy when the sub is asked to do things she enjoys or at least doesn't mind doing. It gets much tougher when she's asked to do things she doesn't like or that frighten her.

I expect obedience in all instances, with the exception that if the sub believes something can cause her permanent harm, or is potentially dangerous due to some fact which is unknown to me (some health condition she has not disclosed, for example), I expect her to voice her concern immediately. And respectfully.

Otherwise, do as I say, or be gone.

(in reply to Lilly425)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: How much challenge do you enjoy from a sub? - 3/17/2013 10:31:18 AM   
sexyred1


Posts: 8998
Joined: 8/9/2007
Status: offline
There is a big difference between being challenging sexually and intellectually vs. being challenging in everyday life.

I think men like spirited women in the bedroom, which is hot, but to just challenge outside the sexual aspect is just silly.

My goal in a relationship is to have it go smoothly, not have constant issues. This goes for Doms as well as subs.

(in reply to misanthropicdom)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: How much challenge do you enjoy from a sub? - 3/17/2013 11:43:56 AM   
OsideGirl


Posts: 14441
Joined: 7/1/2005
From: United States
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: misanthropicdom

Playing "hard to get" is a very vanilla concept, perhaps something your mother or aunt or Cosmo magazine tried very hard to force into your head. It's bullshit. It's always been bullshit. It has been my experience that women who consistently play "hard to get" eventually spend a lot of time alone, taking to their cats.


I didn't play hard to get. I was hard to get. I was picky, took my time getting to know the person before I committed and shot down/walked away from anyone who wasn't on the same page that I was. If I spent time alone it was my choice. And I don't own a cat.


_____________________________

Give a girl the right shoes and she will conquer the world. ~ Marilyn Monroe

The Accelerated Velocity of Terminological Inexactitude

(in reply to misanthropicdom)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: How much challenge do you enjoy from a sub? - 3/17/2013 1:15:50 PM   
DesFIP


Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline
The Man likes a little brattiness sexually. Mainly because it shows that my energy levels are up and I'm interested and excited. He likes a little role play, naughty schoolgirl gets punished. It's a game with cool costumes and games are fun.

It's not something he wants when he comes in ice cold and asks for a cup of tea. But this is inside of a solid relationship where we've discussed this and found out what it means to both of us.

In a new relationship, there's no way around sitting down over coffee and asking him.

_____________________________

Slave to laundry

Cynical and proud of it!


(in reply to OsideGirl)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: How much challenge do you enjoy from a sub? - 3/17/2013 5:54:16 PM   
kalikshama


Posts: 14805
Joined: 8/8/2010
Status: offline
quote:

Your concern is an entirely valid one in the vanilla arena. In my opinion and experience, vanilla men do quickly become bored without challenges and resistance, artificial or organic.
The good news for us is that from what I have seen thus far, dominant men differ dramatically from vanilla men in that they DON'T get bored with our desire to submit; they DON'T want resistance and challenge (except in the scenarios Jeff describes). I regard this as really good news, and a great relief from having to play what I always thought was a stupid lose-lose game.


This has been my experience as well.

_____________________________

Curious about the "Sluts Vote" avatars? See http://www.collarchat.com/m_4133036/mpage_1/key_/tm.htm#4133036

(in reply to Spiritedsub2)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: How much challenge do you enjoy from a sub? - 3/17/2013 9:09:43 PM   
graceadieu


Posts: 1518
Joined: 3/20/2008
From: Maryland
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: RedMagic1

Maybe it's just me, but within a few weeks of leaving my parents' home, life presented me with challenges aplenty. For most of us, as we get older, these challenges get bigger, and harder to surmount. Sick children, job layoffs, death of loved ones. It's good to have a team member who is 100% on your side, to deal with the things that are genuinely challenging.

"You don't get to have sex tonight even though I want you to" seems, in comparison, to be less of a "challenge" and more like penny-ante bullshit.

Withholding intimacy for artificial reasons isn't healthy in vanilla. I don't see why your partner being dominant (or male) makes any difference to the question you are asking. Unless the two of you are fuckbuddies, not boyfriend/girlfriend type material. If you have no investment in each other outside the bedroom, then you might have a valid concern. But if you're interested in building a team, a united front against the world, whether it's for six months or sixty years, why not act as though you're both playing on the same side?


I love the way you said this, and agree so much. There's so many wise words about how to have a successful relationship on this thread. A couple should absolutely be a team, working together rather than against each other.

(in reply to RedMagic1)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: How much challenge do you enjoy from a sub? - 3/17/2013 10:03:27 PM   
TAFKAA


Posts: 382
Joined: 1/5/2013
Status: offline
Your question is an excellent one and answering it fully requires a good deal more insight than is possessed by most - judging from the somewhat naive and glib replies you've received here. Settle in, because this is likely to be a long one.

Your question is a variation on the question "Why does love grow cold after marriage?", a question posed by Ninon De L'Enclos to Saint Evremonde in a letter sent during his exile in England. His answer constitutes the best understanding their society had concerning this mystery and is echoed in our own understanding of psychology - specifically operant conditioning - and in our increasing understanding of the neurochemical underpinnings of both desire and pleasure.

The background: Ninon had two friends she adored who were astounded to discover that marriage had cooled both their ardour and their affection. In desperation, they consulted Ninon and begged her to find a solution. She, in turn, posed the question to Saint Evremonde whose response commences thus:

"My opinion is exactly in line with yours, Mademoiselle; it is not always, as some think, hymen or the possession of the loved object which of itself destroys love; the true source of the dissatisfaction that follows exists in the unintelligent manner of economizing the sentiments, a too complete, too easy, and too prolonged possession."

He continues, "Make an exact analysis of what takes place within you when you desire anything. You will find that your desires are nothing but curiosity, and this curiosity, which is one of the forces of the heart, when satisfied, our desires vanish. Whoever, therefore, would hold a spouse or a lover should leave him something to be desired; something new should be expected every day for the morrow. Diversify his pleasures, procure for him the charm of variety in the same object, and I will vouch for his perseverance in fidelity."

The letter continues on for some time in a similar vein and I'll spare you the full text, although it is an exceedingly sharp and insightful penetration into the mystery of the human heart.

In short, it is the continued, easy availability of pleasure without effort which causes the stagnation of the sentiments. And so your question is a legitimate one. Worse, given a submissive woman makes herself easily available to her Dom, it would seem even more likely that her continued easy availability will hasten the process.

This idea finds legitimacy also in our understanding of operant conditioning. In short, for a given stimulus/response combination, the most effective reinforcement technique is not giving someone what they want every time, but giving them what they desire randomly according to a specific ratio. This reinforces the idea of non-availability enhancing desire.

Moving onward, we consider the effect of dopamine - the chemical of desire - and how attraction bombards our receptors with powerful injections of the stuff. Problem is that, like cocaine, constant bombardment of your dopamine receptors requires increasing levels of the stuff - levels that require exposure to something exotic - usually other women. See: The Coolidge Effect.

Doms are men like any other, however they possess the option of indulging in increasingly exotic sex to deal with the dopamine issue. Consequently if your interaction with a Dom is completely at his whim, it is more than likely he will want to indulge in increasingly kinky sex to satisfy his need to keep his dopamine receptors well-fed.

This is how, and why, you'll find yourself going down a path toward more exotic, outrageous and eventually dangerous sex. Unrestrained, this is something of a path to ruin, but its progression is entirely predictable and is why law-enforcement tends to regard the consumption of violent porn as a signpost of an individual who is likely to engage in violent behaviour. In the end, it's all just dopamine and dopamine produces desire we are compelled to attempt to satisfy.

So. What to do. How does a submissive woman avoid going down the path to either a cooling of ardour or an increasingly risky sex life?

My suggestion would be thus. Stop regarding your submission as a one-time decision. Regard it as an ongoing process which your Dom justifies by continuing to be a man of excellence.

In other words, chose wisely, set high standards and - and this is the most important part - continue to set them. Have the unspoken understanding that your commitment to your Dom - indeed your submission itself - is compelled by who he is. And that for that submission to continue, his excellence must likewise continue. Every damn day.

This is not a one-shot deal - and too many people think it is. It's an ongoing progression, a dynamic interaction which continues to evolve as you spend time with each other. You do not submit to a Dom because you've decided to. You submit - and here's the kicker - because his ongoing excellence compels you to.

In other words, your Dom doesn't get to lock you up in a collar, toss away his best self and sit on the couch with his feet up. He needs to continue to lift his game to keep you. And that need to constantly stay on his toes will combat the ennui that can eventuate when a woman lets herself become a sure thing.

If your submission is anything less than an unspoken compulsion... if you've "negotiated" your submission, then you've sold yourself short and you've attached yourself to a man who lacks the stuff to arouse it in you by virtue of who he is. Such interactions are doomed to wither and die. You'll learn that eventually, if you haven't already.

So no, there's no reason to create artificial challenge, you have to create real challenge by not selling yourself short. However this requires you to have an incredibly healthy self-esteem - women who lack it, will not be able to genuinely set the required high standards and indeed, some of them will rail against the concept. You should ignore them - their own issues prevent them from advising you truly on this.

So I'm afraid the news isn't all good, although it's not all bad, either. Like most things, it's going to require some work. From both sides.

Get used to it - that's life.

_____________________________

The asshole formerly known as Awareness

(in reply to Lilly425)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: How much challenge do you enjoy from a sub? - 3/18/2013 12:01:47 AM   
Kirata


Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: poise

I think if you start spending most of your energy on finding ways to challenge him, you will soon lose
focus on your initial desire of wanting to please him, which could lead to you losing interest.
Challenge yourself to remain authentic in your desire to be pleasing to him. No rocket science is required.

Bingo.

(It's hell trying to follow poise on some of these issues.)

K.

(in reply to poise)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: How much challenge do you enjoy from a sub? - 3/18/2013 7:12:04 AM   
JeffBC


Posts: 5799
Joined: 2/12/2012
From: Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
(It's hell trying to follow poise on some of these issues.)

*laughs* Yeah. An awful lot of the time "what she said" seems to be the right answer. This is one of them.


_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: How much challenge do you enjoy from a sub? - 3/18/2013 11:42:46 AM   
Spiritedsub2


Posts: 3316
Joined: 7/18/2012
Status: offline
I was sure you'd have something useful to say on this thread, and you didn't disappoint. If I understood some of the post correctly, submissive women don't need to artificially play hard to get with their submissiveness, but do need to avoid offering it reflexively or thoughtlessly without regard to their Dom's behavior. Sort of a variation of always being mindful that we vote with our feet, and not keeping that to ourselves.

TAFKAA, where does commitment to a non-trivial relationship fall in this paradigm?

_____________________________

Don’t grieve. Anything you lose comes round in another form.
~ Rumi

Laughing Dolphin

(in reply to TAFKAA)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: How much challenge do you enjoy from a sub? - 3/19/2013 5:59:54 PM   
KrisHere


Posts: 2
Joined: 3/14/2013
Status: offline
Why would a dominant-submissive relationship differ from any other relationship? For example: husband-wife, boss-employee, teacher-student, parent-child, etc. Does an employee execute his/her boss' directions/suggestions/commands 100% of the time? Of course there are those archaic autocratic bosses who must control everything and everyone, who command their employees instead of inspire - anyone can do that. Personally, my future dominant man will inspire me to submit - but even then, nobody is perfectly omnipotent - so occasionally I will ask questions, challenge, take a stand, hold my ground. But guess what...my future dominate man will be like my father, a man who didn't sweat the small stuff and had a spine that he didn't flaunt it, brag about, or relish. He was not intimidated when I challenged him, took a stand and held my ground; however, when I got out of line, he knew exactly how to put me in my place with a few matter of fact words that always left me speechless.

(in reply to OsideGirl)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: How much challenge do you enjoy from a sub? - 3/19/2013 11:08:47 PM   
Greta75


Posts: 9968
Joined: 2/6/2011
Status: offline
Actually, I don't understand why doms don't enjoy challenges. Where is the psychological dominance play if someone was just gonna go in and say yes and be agreeable to everything. Then you haven't really dominated anything.
In another words, they simply want doormats.

(in reply to KrisHere)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: How much challenge do you enjoy from a sub? - 3/20/2013 12:44:59 AM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32566
Status: offline
I was talking to My husband about this thread earlier today. My point in doing so was to ask him if he thought it would be a good idea for either of us to come home and basically just start shit. He just looked at Me with this "why would I want to do that, rather than have an enjoyable relationship?"

Seriously, you never see vanilla people deciding that they have to cause discontent in some guise of supposing there are benefits in "challenges" to the harmony of the home. Why kinky people decide they have to do this to keep the relationship "interesting" is beyond My realm of understanding.


_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

(in reply to Greta75)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: How much challenge do you enjoy from a sub? - 3/20/2013 1:52:19 AM   
Kirata


Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Greta75

Where is the psychological dominance play if someone was just gonna go in and say yes and be agreeable to everything. Then you haven't really dominated anything.

Well personally, I don't consider it "play".

So I don't want a submissive/slave who is committed to making a constant (or even frequent) pain in the ass of herself.

K.





< Message edited by Kirata -- 3/20/2013 2:02:27 AM >

(in reply to Greta75)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: How much challenge do you enjoy from a sub? - 3/20/2013 2:06:20 AM   
Greta75


Posts: 9968
Joined: 2/6/2011
Status: offline
quote:


Seriously, you never see vanilla people deciding that they have to cause discontent in some guise of supposing there are benefits in "challenges" to the harmony of the home. Why kinky people decide they have to do this to keep the relationship "interesting" is beyond My realm of understanding.

In Vanilla relationships, there are disagreements very often and that is what vanilla is, being able to deal with disagreements and differences and accept it as part and parcel of a relationship, to negotiate and compromise.

But it seems like the description of a D/S relationship is about having no disagreement, one makes decision, and the other just follow without question. But I kinda see it differently. I often see a Dom as like a Boss running a company, and a very good Boss is very good at manipulating the staff to maintain order and follow instructions to have things go smoothly. It's the challenge of being a very good manager and managing someone.


< Message edited by Greta75 -- 3/20/2013 2:09:15 AM >

(in reply to LadyPact)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: How much challenge do you enjoy from a sub? - 3/20/2013 3:00:52 AM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32566
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Greta75
In Vanilla relationships, there are disagreements very often and that is what vanilla is, being able to deal with disagreements and differences and accept it as part and parcel of a relationship, to negotiate and compromise.

But it seems like the description of a D/S relationship is about having no disagreement, one makes decision, and the other just follow without question. But I kinda see it differently. I often see a Dom as like a Boss running a company, and a very good Boss is very good at manipulating the staff to maintain order and follow instructions to have things go smoothly. It's the challenge of being a very good manager and managing someone.
If that's the case, do you talk back to your boss?

(Said with a bit of jest, but working on a point.)

Here's how I see this thing. There are honestly enough challenges in day to day life and personal accomplishment for the submissive as they overcome the actual hurdles that they already have in deepening their submission. That doesn't have to cause discontent. These are growth opportunities.

When (if) folks start out as play partners or just begin in D/s, there's always that area of 'not sure' or 'not without serious bond/trust' types of play, etc that probably should be put on the hard limits list. Over time, those areas can come off of the list when the s-type is ready. I don't expect someone to automatically trust Me at the on-set for those areas. I know there's a time investment involved. I don't expect the hard limits list to look the same at five years as it did at five months. Sure, some things will never come off, but I do expect those 'unsure' items to change.

The simple stuff? Yes, I want obedience. I figure, if you choose to submit, I shouldn't have to fight you for it.



_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

(in reply to Greta75)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: How much challenge do you enjoy from a sub? - 3/20/2013 3:19:15 AM   
Greta75


Posts: 9968
Joined: 2/6/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact
If that's the case, do you talk back to your boss?

(Said with a bit of jest, but working on a point.)

LOL! YES!!! I always do! As in, if I disagree with his decision, I will voice my opinion, but of course, it's his company, he makes the final decision, but if I strongly believe his decision is wrong, I would fight it strongly. And as a good boss, he takes the time and patience to explain why he came to his decision and persuade that it is the right one. Well, I like my boss and his not a very dictator sort of person.

(in reply to LadyPact)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: How much challenge do you enjoy from a sub? - 3/20/2013 4:51:43 AM   
JeffBC


Posts: 5799
Joined: 2/12/2012
From: Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Greta75
Actually, I don't understand why doms don't enjoy challenges. Where is the psychological dominance play if someone was just gonna go in and say yes and be agreeable to everything. Then you haven't really dominated anything.
In another words, they simply want doormats.

EXACTLY. You're problem here is that you're wrapped up in thinking that any of this has anything to do with play or sexuality. For Carol and I it doesn't. It has to do with how decisions get made in our marriage and how to keep the marriage running smoothly. Think of it like our marriage being a business and I'm the boss. There's no "play" and I don't want any "challenge". I want to craft a plan that will generate lots of profit then I want my employee(s) to make that plan happen.

I'm trying to follow where your head is at Greta. Yes, I talk back to my boss and Carol talks back to me... all the way up until a decision is reached. After that, if I continue to talk back to my boss then either he or I gets fired. Ditto with Carol.

_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

(in reply to Greta75)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: How much challenge do you enjoy from a sub? - 3/20/2013 5:12:51 AM   
Kirata


Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

Yes, I talk back to my boss and Carol talks back to me... all the way up until a decision is reached. After that, if I continue to talk back to my boss then either he or I gets fired. Ditto with Carol.

Not to mention that there are some ways of expressing annoyance or disagreement that will get you fired before you finish the first sentence.

K.





< Message edited by Kirata -- 3/20/2013 5:40:55 AM >

(in reply to JeffBC)
Profile   Post #: 40
Page:   <<   < prev  1 [2] 3   next >   >>
All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Ask a Master >> RE: How much challenge do you enjoy from a sub? Page: <<   < prev  1 [2] 3   next >   >>
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts




Collarchat.com © 2025
Terms of Service Privacy Policy Spam Policy

0.094