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RE: Obama to announce plans to fund alternative fuel re... - 3/17/2013 4:40:08 PM   
Moonhead


Posts: 16520
Joined: 9/21/2009
Status: offline 		The issues with lithium aren't enough?

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RE: Obama to announce plans to fund alternative fuel re... - 3/18/2013 7:29:01 AM   
JeffBC


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead
The issues with lithium aren't enough?

Not really since fuel cells seem sort of ready to go. If you look at most of the "challenges" involved they appear to be centered around non-technological problems. So funding "research" is pointless since there's nothing to research.


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RE: Obama to announce plans to fund alternative fuel re... - 3/18/2013 7:33:41 AM   
Moonhead


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Status: offline 		Well, that was sort of my point in reply to the OP, wasn't it?
It isn't so much that there aren't viable avenues to start on, more that free enterprise is ignoring them. Which, whatever those with a libertarian bias believe, is when The Man needs to step in, because nothing is going to happen otherwise.

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RE: Obama to announce plans to fund alternative fuel re... - 3/18/2013 7:41:17 AM   
JeffBC


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead
Well, that was sort of my point in reply to the OP, wasn't it?
It isn't so much that there aren't viable avenues to start on, more that free enterprise is ignoring them. Which, whatever those with a libertarian bias believe, is when The Man needs to step in, because nothing is going to happen otherwise.

Not exactly. The thread was about funding research. I don't think we need research. What we need is policy and regulation. We might need a credible state run fuel company in order to make the oil & auto lobbies actually believe the threat.


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I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

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RE: Obama to announce plans to fund alternative fuel re... - 3/18/2013 8:24:42 AM   
Moonhead


Posts: 16520
Joined: 9/21/2009
Status: offline 		They'll certainly continue to ignore the possibility until such a company is set up, yes.

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I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

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RE: Obama to announce plans to fund alternative fuel re... - 3/18/2013 8:45:40 AM   
FunCouple5280


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Joined: 10/30/2012
Status: offline 		Considering I work in a small niche of the alternative energy market, I would have to say I want the government to get out in some regards and get more active in others. Right now the vast majority of the grant money and subsidies are being soaked up by three classes of worthless: Political donors and cronies, big corps pushing existing tech with little care of improvement, and lazy academics whose job is to apply for grants and if the produce something in 20 yrs great if not oh well. We are already spending billions and not getting much for it.

The best example is the E-85 nightmare. Government went all in for awhile subsidizing it. Made big agriculture rich and they were never able to produce ethanol that could produce a net energy balance. Had you used all the energy that went into making the ethanol for your car, you would have had more energy.

Now, I do agree that the government should be involved. But, it has to change its tactics. Right now it does a horrible job of picking horses to back. It seems for every $10 it doles out maybe $1 goes towards meaningful development.

I support taking all the current monies (totaling in the B-B-B-Billions) and putting towards sort of an x-prize type deal. You set the paremeters and say go. This approach ensures that the money will absolutely go to viable technology, and ensure that the winning tech has necessary funds to become commercially viable. Also, this keeps the politics out of it and inspires everyone from the Wright bothers types to the GEs.

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RE: Obama to announce plans to fund alternative fuel re... - 3/18/2013 8:55:17 AM   
Owner59


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Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline 		"Free enterprise" ignored the electric light until a proper grid was in place.


By and far,the tax payer subsidizes if not out right pays for most electrification and grid projects.


If there was better and more charging stations,including at motels and places of work,for trickle charging...electric cars would become more utilized.


If there were zero diesel fill stations(for argument`s sake)just how many people would drive diesel engine cars/trucks?


I support any effort that would make atl fuel easier and cheaper to use and applaud the President`s leadership.




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RE: Obama to announce plans to fund alternative fuel re... - 3/18/2013 9:48:11 AM   
Moonhead


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59
"Free enterprise" ignored the electric light until a proper grid was in place.


By and far,the tax payer subsidizes if not out right pays for most electrification and grid projects.

Yes, but most of the people who argue against government intervention into free enterprise are incapable of grasping that. Hell, these are the sort of idiots who grew up reading Robert Heinlein and resent the fact that it took massive federal spending on the PR wing of the arms race to put a few Americans on the Moon around the turn of the '70s.
(Though the same people, strangely, never seem to have a money with the amount of federal spending that was pissed away to no good effect on SDI. Maybe it was because Heinlein was in on that one, or perhaps just because it proved even less productive than the free enterprise SSTO orbit prize that no budding Richard Seaton has ever been able to claim?)

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I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

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RE: Obama to announce plans to fund alternative fuel re... - 3/18/2013 9:59:10 AM   
JeffBC


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59
I support any effort that would make atl fuel easier and cheaper to use

Me too... which is exactly why I decry the president's leadership.

Do you have any specific research you think needs to be done here? I just don't understand what exactly he plans on paying for with my money. Had he rolled out a program with did the following I'd be completely in support of it:

A) Finalize safety standards for fuel cells
B) Mandate hydrogen charging stations in a graduated series as a part of keeping a license to sell gasoline.
C) Offered incentives to independent operators to help pay for the upgrades.
D) Mandate percentages of fuel cell powered vehicles in a graduated series as a part of keeping a license to sell automobiles.
E) Created a small but viable state run hydrogen fueling company
F) Created a small but viable state run fuel cell automotive company

Then I'd applaud his leadership. That would actually accomplish the goal. Note I hate (E) and (F) but given California's experience with such mandates the oil & auto lobbies will simply ignore mandates unless you prevent the "too big to fail" problem.

Now, if we already had that sort of infrastructure I could MAYBE see funding some research into better fuel cells and/or more energy efficient ways to produce hydrogen.

_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

(in reply to Owner59)
Profile   Post #: 29
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