RE: First Punishment (Full Version)

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whiteserf -> RE: First Punishment (3/17/2013 7:57:27 PM)

Mishna,

I really don't have anything of value to add....BUT one thing is certain........by all that I have read here........You are certainly one caring Domme and if the "sub" doesn't see that, then he is blind and doesn't deserve You!



LadyPact -> RE: First Punishment (3/17/2013 10:52:55 PM)

I'm late to this one, but I'm going to give a few words, anyway.

I have the power in a punishment dynamic. To be very honest, I don't like punishing, either. It's not exactly something I enjoy. I'm not jumping up and down with glee when a situation arises that necessitates it's use. I'm not happy about having to correct the behavior. I'd rather the behavior didn't exists for Me to have to correct it.

We've got a problem that just arose today that is a punishment offense. I'm using it as a learning tool as to what is and what is not acceptable as a member of this household. Am I happy about it? No. At the same time, I want a tangible realization that this kind of incident can not happen again, so in effect, I'm using the 'effort' that will be entailed in the punishment to make a greater impact upon memory.

Also, I tend to deal with punishments as an evaluation tool. If something is bad enough that a person needs to be punished for it, we have to look if we have a compatibility inconsistency. If My sub acts in such a way that it makes Me ashamed of him, that's not what I want in an authority dynamic. It is a way of showing him that I am serious about his accountability, as well as My responsibility of holding him to a certain standard. For the duration of the punishment, we can both assess if we can get to a mutual understanding of what needs to be done.

In closing, I do agree with Lance. I don't think it is an earth-shattering thing to tell a submissive to write on topic X and that I will see him again when he is finished. An hour in a different room so that he can be focused on that writing, his submission, and the infraction isn't setting somebody up for emotional scarring. If it is, that would be a state of emotional frailness that I probably couldn't hack in a submissive, anyway.



LanceHughes -> RE: First Punishment (3/17/2013 11:12:54 PM)

Thanks LP for adding "Write X words on topic y." 

I was writing as if in the heat of the moment.  Of course, NO punishment should be meted out in anger.  I was trying to give examples of "deprivation of attention."  To those that felt that impending termination, I say "not so."  The time limit is like a little kid being sent to the corner.  I think "time out" for contemplation is appropriate and such a "time out" is followed by COMMUNICATION. 

I certainly like LP's idea of writing as an aid to contemplation.




Lucifyre -> RE: First Punishment (3/18/2013 3:34:18 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LanceHughes

Thanks LP for adding "Write X words on topic y." 

I was writing as if in the heat of the moment.  Of course, NO punishment should be meted out in anger.  I was trying to give examples of "deprivation of attention."  To those that felt that impending termination, I say "not so."  The time limit is like a little kid being sent to the corner.  I think "time out" for contemplation is appropriate and such a "time out" is followed by COMMUNICATION. 

I certainly like LP's idea of writing as an aid to contemplation.




While corner time wouldn't work for me so Mr doesn't use it, that can be an effective tool in the box. But it's got to be supervised in some way. "Get out of my sight" and the like IMO is lashing out and being lazy about it. It's the equivelant iMO of telling a child to go to thier room without anything constructive to do. 5 minutes of that is one thing, anything more and you're giving (what my grandmother used to call) idle hands the Devils permission (to get into more trouble)
And since it's before 7 am I still have brain fog and I refuse to be respnsible for anything I say right now to make any sense LOL

Luci



JeffBC -> RE: First Punishment (3/18/2013 8:07:00 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mishna
JeffBC, yes, I can see that. That sounds like a good rule.

We have found it to be "good" for us. But it's also pretty high-stakes. When you say "one strike and your out" that is pretty much a commitment and it's either going to work really well or crash spectacularly poorly. But there's no room for middle grounds in such an extreme position. In truth, only part of why I opted for this path is that I dislike punishing Carol. In the end I'm down with the idea that a leader must differentiate good from bad and must, in some way, reward the good and punish the bad. That's true in any leadership context at all. I think disobedience offends my sense of TPE and makes me wonder what sort of game we are playing. I like the crystal clear simplicity of saying, "I'm in charge". Tacked on to the end of that is the implied "...until I'm not". But I can live without being in charge of my marriage much more than I can live with muddy command & control.



AthenaSurrenders -> RE: First Punishment (3/18/2013 11:39:29 AM)

Fast reply

Although it's not the main topic of the thread I'm enjoying the debate on whether or not the withdrawl of attention is an effective punishment.

I know it's something that would be damaging in our relationship. If things have gone wrong to the point that there's going to be punishment, I'm probably already feeling pretty vulnerable, emotional, guilty at disappointing him. To be ignored or sent away would feel like a personal rejection of me. Frankly it would break my heart - not in a useful, 'learn the lesson' sort of way, but in a very distressing, make me feel uncertain of his feelings towards me way. To be sent to fulfill a task (like writing on a subject as LadyPact said) wouldn't feel that way, but just being ignored or sent away really would.

But then as I've said, punishment for us is about reaffirmation of our dynamic and our investment in each other, and comes after the 'what went wrong?' talk. I do agree with Lance's assertion that the sub might need the punishment to let him know she cares and is serious about him, but for me personally, to show that by sending me away for three days would undermine the point.



LadyPact -> RE: First Punishment (3/18/2013 12:23:02 PM)

I think it's helpful to look at both sides of what is happening from incident, to reaction, to punishment, and finally closure.

For Me, I don't punish in public, even if the incident happens in public. I will express My disapproval. Even if that means drawing away from those who can overhear and let it be known what would be happening if we were *not* in public. This isn't some long, drawn out thing. Most likely, it's to make sure we are both on the same page about what happened and that it will be handled in private.

If we are at home, I'll just put it like this. I'm not some paragon of virtue. If you (ok, My submissive 'you' but you get the idea) have managed to actually piss Me off, rather than just make Me unhappy, you're going away for fifteen minutes. "Pissed off" is not the right state of mind for Me to be making decisions. I want a clear head and My thoughts organized so that I know I'm handling the situation to the best of My ability. I know Myself and rational beats knee-jerk reactions every time.

I know some submissives don't deal well with being sent away to "wait". (Because, let's face it, that's really what you are doing those fifteen minutes.) That's why I say I'm not compatible with those who start interpreting those fifteen minutes as having more weight than the years that the dynamic has been in place.

It may sound cold to some, but the punishment process isn't necessarily about absolving distress. That might be at the end, but it's not the main theme from incident to closure. There is a "during" that happens and that's not something that I want the s-type to be ambivalent about. Yes, I know it's upsetting to hear that behavior X makes Me unhappy or that it's not the kind of thing that is acceptable. Yes, I know that it distresses you when I say behavior X is not something I'm willing to tolerate. Disappointing Me and making you know that has to be a part of the communication process. You don't skip that just because it upsets the submissive.



EligibleOwner -> RE: First Punishment (3/18/2013 12:54:40 PM)

This is a really interesting discussion.

I don't think any sort of emotional withdrawal or breaking contact would be a good idea. I think that sort of thing is just likely to undermine the relationship.

If you're really, seriously uncomfortable about punishing him at all, then of course you need to rethink this aspect of what you two want to do. But I think that'd be a pity, and that this sort of situation is a chance to solidify the relationship, and to let him know he can rely on you.

I'm always disappointed when I need to give a punishment. I'd rather not have to. But I also think punishment is a normal part of the sort of relationship I want to be in, so it must be done. I also think the sort of woman I want to be with needs to know I'll punish her when I think it's appropriate.

I'm not a football-obsessed man, but can I use a football analogy? It'd be great if a match could finish without there being a single foul or free kick. But the referee blowing the whistle, and the free kicks, penalties or whatever, are also a normal part of football. It's not like a riot, or players leaving the field. Football fans praise a referee if you hardly notice him - if he intervenes only when necessary. But of course you would notice if the players started to think they could get away with anything.

So I think of it as a sort of second level within "normal". Unless you want to rethink the whole punishment thing, I think the best thing is this situation is to overcome your own disappointment and reluctance to punish, and to follow through with consequences for what he's done, explaining why you're doing it. You may feel sorry for him, but I'd advise you to overcome that and make sure you do your duty to him and to yourself. You'll certainly feel psychologically alone: this is a moment in which you're both depending on your self-control and your capacity to generate and use authority.

You can comfort and reassure him afterwards - and you may well find he is truly grateful to you, and that something important has happened.



JeffBC -> RE: First Punishment (3/18/2013 1:38:25 PM)

quote:

LadyPact said:
If we are at home, I'll just put it like this. I'm not some paragon of virtue. If you (ok, My submissive 'you' but you get the idea) have managed to actually piss Me off, rather than just make Me unhappy, you're going away for fifteen minutes. "Pissed off" is not the right state of mind for Me to be making decisions. I want a clear head and My thoughts organized so that I know I'm handling the situation to the best of My ability. I know Myself and rational beats knee-jerk reactions every time.

As is true frequently I'm beginning to sense some crossed wires here. Neither Carol or I would consider this "emotional withdrawal". Neither of us would even consider it punishment. We would both think of this as "loving your partner enough to give them some time to sort their head out".

Your description is not the image I had in my head. that was more like, "You've pissed me off so my punitive reaction is to become cold & distant because I know that hurts you."



JeffBC -> RE: First Punishment (3/18/2013 1:58:55 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mishna
For whatever reason, he made the decision to forget/ignore a couple of the rules he agreed to. Per our contract there is punishment involved.

OK, I was rereading this post because Carol and I were talking about it. I think it's worth pointing out that for me there is a WORLD OF DIFFERENCE between "forget" and "ignore". I would not be able to just lump them into the same category and proceed forward with my formulaic response.

For us, if it was "forget" then it goes right into the "shit happens, welcome to reality" bucket. Carol does not routinely forget things. So this would be a one-off situation. There would be no punishment because there'd be no point to the punishment. There's no behavioral correction required. It was an honest mistake made by a fallible human.

For us, if it was "ignore" that is an entirely different kettle of fish. There is no price tag on disobedience for her. She can't pay for it with some sort of punishment. Disobedience is simply not allowed. There is no "obey or...." It's just "obey". She can't write an essay or get 20 lashes in order to make it all go away because things have inescapably changed. We are no longer in a TPE relationship. So I'd release her simply as an acknowledgment of reality. Then we'd have to figure out what sort of relationship we wanted going forward. I'm sure it would come down to some more moderate form of D/s.

If I wasn't clear on which one it was I'd simply ask her. If I couldn't trust her to answer the question honestly then that's a whole other problem.



AthenaSurrenders -> RE: First Punishment (3/18/2013 2:04:29 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

quote:

LadyPact said:
If we are at home, I'll just put it like this. I'm not some paragon of virtue. If you (ok, My submissive 'you' but you get the idea) have managed to actually piss Me off, rather than just make Me unhappy, you're going away for fifteen minutes. "Pissed off" is not the right state of mind for Me to be making decisions. I want a clear head and My thoughts organized so that I know I'm handling the situation to the best of My ability. I know Myself and rational beats knee-jerk reactions every time.

As is true frequently I'm beginning to sense some crossed wires here. Neither Carol or I would consider this "emotional withdrawal". Neither of us would even consider it punishment. We would both think of this as "loving your partner enough to give them some time to sort their head out".

Your description is not the image I had in my head. that was more like, "You've pissed me off so my punitive reaction is to become cold & distant because I know that hurts you."


Thank you for this post, this was my reaction too but I couldn't find the way to express it.



SomethingCatchy -> RE: First Punishment (3/18/2013 11:35:11 PM)

This thread is incredibly interesting for a variety of reasons.

quote:

So I'd release her simply as an acknowledgment of reality.


I feel panic just thinking about being in a relationship where disobedience would mean automatic end of the dynamic. I am a super sensitive, needy person when I'm on the sub side of switch and the fear of screwing up would cause a lot of pain and misery. Hell, the fear of the unknown in my current 'exploratory' dynamic is causing some pretty hefty mental anguish and confusion. I think I can chalk up those strong emotions to lack of trust and respect.

I say this last part for no particular reason other than to voice my own feelings on that sentence for anyone else to read.



AthenaSurrenders -> RE: First Punishment (3/18/2013 11:49:26 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: SomethingCatchy

This thread is incredibly interesting for a variety of reasons.

quote:

So I'd release her simply as an acknowledgment of reality.


I feel panic just thinking about being in a relationship where disobedience would mean automatic end of the dynamic. I am a super sensitive, needy person when I'm on the sub side of switch and the fear of screwing up would cause a lot of pain and misery. Hell, the fear of the unknown in my current 'exploratory' dynamic is causing some pretty hefty mental anguish and confusion. I think I can chalk up those strong emotions to lack of trust and respect.

I say this last part for no particular reason other than to voice my own feelings on that sentence for anyone else to read.


Me too. But don't forget all of the other elements of Jeff and Carol's relationship, like 'love each other to pieces', 'intend to be together forever regardless of whether or not they're always D/s' and 'puts an awful lot of thought into making rules and orders that will strengthen their relationship'. They really do have the trust and respect in place and a very long thorough history to support it.

That said, I don't think I would be a good fit for Jeff's harem. I'll never be getting the sub-of-the-year award for perfect obedience and I'd probably feel insecure if I knew that was the absolute expectation. It works for me to know that when I inevitably fuck up, we have a way of dealing with it, and it works for them to plan for no fucking up.



Lucifyre -> RE: First Punishment (3/19/2013 5:20:41 AM)

I *think* (and am probably wrong) that Jeffs version of "just fucking obey" has a lot to do with intent. As in...if carol intended to fuck up, the D/s part of their relationship ends, but the marraige doesn't. If she doesn't intend to fuck up and makes an honest mistake, they discuss why the mistake happened and work through it. That's my best guess anyway.
For the most part, Mr won't punish me for mistakes. Occassionally He will allow me to continue to make a mistake over and over, reminding me to correct it until He does feel it's time to punish, but that doesn't happen often. I either get it together or He and I figure out why I contiinue to make the repeated mistake and we find a solution. When He does punish for things like that, it's usually just a mild reminder to get me back on track. Don't mistake what my meaning is here though...punishment is NOT funishment for us. It's not a pleasant occassion and I do not enjoy myself when it happens, there is no orgasm at the end of the rainbow.
The thing is though, that given the relationship He and I have, He doesn't punish me for some of the things that most D/s types would expect. One example being, I'm a mouthy bitch and really enjoy a good banter, He expects and has fun with a bit of sass from me...I wouldn't be who I am without it and He likes me that way.
Similar to but not exactly like Jeff and carol though, if something happens that is serious enough for me to ouright say "NOPE, not happening" either the D/s ends for us and we just continue to be a married couple (because whatever it is is NOT worth throwing the entire relationship away over) OR we take a hiatus and work through whatever it is that caused the "NOPE" as a vanilla couple until it's completely resolved and we then renegotiate the entire D/s aspect of our relationship. (BTW, for the record, He also gets that NOPE veto and has used it in the past)
Personslly, most times I would rather not fuck up in the first place. But I am human (gee, whoda thunk it?) and life has a tendancy to happen. Because the D/s is as important to us as it is, punishment is an important part of our dynamic. And now that I'm thinking about it a little more deeply...the more accurate word would be *consequences*

Ok...I'm feeling a little rambly again ;)

Luci



JeffBC -> RE: First Punishment (3/19/2013 9:09:57 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: AthenaSurrenders
Me too. But don't forget all of the other elements of Jeff and Carol's relationship, like 'love each other to pieces', 'intend to be together forever regardless of whether or not they're always D/s' and 'puts an awful lot of thought into making rules and orders that will strengthen their relationship'. They really do have the trust and respect in place and a very long thorough history to support it.

thanks Athena. Carol's place in my life is secure. Me updating terminology and labels changes nothing except for the fact that she knows I groove on the absolutism of it so I'd be disappointed if we lost that. But in the grand scheme of things we're talking "drop in the bucket" stuff here. If I took the collar back we'd still be happily married marching down the path of life together. It's just the path would have changed slightly. Even the change itself would be subtle since it's not like she wants to disobey with or without some label or agreement or whatnot.

And Lucifyre is correct... intent means everything here. This isn't some sort of minefield that Carol is dancing in where a single unknowing misstep ends the whole thing. She has to make a conscious choice that whatever else she wants was more important than "being mine".

quote:

That said, I don't think I would be a good fit for Jeff's harem. I'll never be getting the sub-of-the-year award for perfect obedience and I'd probably feel insecure if I knew that was the absolute expectation. It works for me to know that when I inevitably fuck up, we have a way of dealing with it, and it works for them to plan for no fucking up.

*nods* As always "good fit" is the key. What works for one couple isn't what works for another. I don't want to sound like I'm down on those with punishment dynamics. There's several on these boards that I respect a great deal. It's just that the OP was wrestling with punishment and I have at least one way out of the punishment problem. Other people have mentioned the "we simply talk about the problem" option.



DesFIP -> RE: First Punishment (3/19/2013 5:34:47 PM)

I'm assuming you mean a corporal punishment. That's not the only kind.

How about just expressing your disappointment with him and saying because he couldn't be bothered to keep his word, you need some time to think about whatever nice thing you folks were going to do on your next meet. If you were going to go to a movie, tell him you need to decide if you even want to go with him. If there was going to be a fun spanking session, you aren't up to it after what he did.

However, I'm assuming he explained why he didn't follow the rule. I know for myself, when we began I couldn't handle more than one rule every two weeks. More than that and I screwed up. I need a fairly extensive learning curve. Did you overload him with rules? Was it something that he normally does without even thinking about and that's why he did it, out of habit? Because if so, it takes a long time to learn new habits.



Mishna -> RE: First Punishment (3/19/2013 7:28:55 PM)

Things did work out all right. He misinterpreted something, we discussed it and we worked out a reminder system for it. All in all, he doesn't have many rules at the moment, although there will be more added with time.

I've really been learning a lot from the conversation on this thread and hope it continues as people chime in. Thanks, all, for the input and various perspectives.



MaamJay -> RE: First Punishment (3/28/2013 11:29:57 PM)

I regard the need to punish as a sign that I haven't led appropriately as much as it is about the sub doing the wrong thing UNLESS it's completely willful and knowing disobedience. In that case, I am slightly more generous than Jeff, it's 3 strikes and you're out!

Consequently, punishment time is as much a soul-seeking time for Me as it is for the sub, and sometimes we both need a few minutes of clear space to do that thinking, so a time out (for both of Us to write down thoughts and feelings) is a common strategy. Then its time to discuss what happened, and put strategies in place to prevent it happening again. Then, and only then, do we discuss the NEED for some kind of punishment. There are subs who do really need something to happen or they cannot absolve themselves. Others do not have that need. If they are the former then an appropriate punishment is given but NEVER something physical that also constitutes play in another mindset. Instead it may be extra chores (especially the less than pleasant ones), or loss of privileges. For subs that get off on feeling that they have pleased Me, I will also indicate that the act of punishing is upsetting to Me, or I may select something in which I am punished along with the sub (e.g. OK so now neither of Us will go to the play party). That is usually incredibly effective! A very important part of this whole process is the sub being genuinely sorry and remorseful about having done the wrong thing. That's not just saying a quick "Sorry", it's easy to say, but about showing genuine remorse and willingness to do the right thing in future.

I do find it interesting that the OP's sub would muck up so soon after having entered into a contract. I do think there might have been a bit of testing going on, even if he was unconscious of it. However it's good that they talked about it and clarified it, and also good Mishna, that You have confronted Your own feelings about punishment. A good opportunity to rethink how You want the dynamic to work and what forms of punishment might work for You and what won't.

I do agree with the one who wrote that Your sub is lucky to have You!
Maam Jay aka violet[A]



MissImmortalPain -> RE: First Punishment (3/30/2013 6:18:25 AM)

I am a little late to this but I would like to put in my two cents (for what they are worth)

You called yourself a mother, a sadist, and a lover. I too would describe myself this way. I am a mommydomme and feel that the mental control a mother has over her "children" is the most powerful form of dominance. When it comes to corporal punishment, and a boy forgetting the rules, I don't believe I would want to ignore him, I would want to remind him. So....first you have to get a couple of things. Two buckets. They can be as heavy, or not, as you want. And a few (depends on your number of rules) big rocks. Take your boy and stand him naked in the middle of a room. With some sort of marker write each of your rules on the rocks. As he stands there and you write show him the rocks. Ask him what each rule means to him. After he has said what the rule means to him drop it in one of the buckets. Make it clear to him that he is not to move or put the buckets down. After some time his arms will get tired, he will want to sit, and you will run out of rocks. Don't let him put the buckets down, don't let him sit. Take the marker and rewrite the rules on his body. Again, as you do this, ask him what each rule means to him. Also ask him if he will remember the rules in the future.

I know you worked out your issues but if, in the future, you fear punishing your boy you might want to try something like what I have typed above. Do to the nature of it I find it is a small first step that can easy one into the idea of punishment. Good luck.



BlkTallFullfig -> RE: First Punishment (3/30/2013 1:48:10 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mishna
My question is not really about the contract so much as what I'm feeling about the punishment
Who's idea was it to make ?physical punishment part of the contract? Why would ?he, on the very first go around out of town, infringe on the rules, and maybe force your hand, and see if you have what it takes. I'm not necessarily thinking he did it on purpose, but whether he did or not, I feel you should respond per the contract, and punish him, than sit down and discuss the why he went there, and how you feel about punishing him.

quote:

This is the first contract either of us has been involved with, too, so we are both learning as we go. It's included because we discussed it and both felt it should be there. I didn't think I would have to act on it so soon, or even at all, given our past interactions.
Well, it sounds like you are learning that you want obedience/adherence to the rules for it's own sake, not so much when it forces you to react in a certain/specified way. I don't mind doling out punishment, but I do mind it if someone is yanking my chain to get my reaction. M



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