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Iraq Senate Vote - 6/22/2006 11:25:47 AM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline 		It will be difficult for some I know to remove the subject from the point I'm attempting to make here, but please bear with me. This just popped up on my office's news ticker:
quote:

Senate Rejects Calls on Iraq Troop Pullout
WASHINGTON - The GOP-controlled Senate on Thursday rejected Democratic calls to start withdrawing U.S. troops from Iraq by years' end, as the two parties sought to define their election-year positions on a war that has grown increasingly unpopular. "Withdrawal is not an option. Surrender is not a solution," declared Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist of Tennessee, who characterized Democrats as defeatists wanting to abandon Iraq before the mission is complete.


Okay here's where you have to leave the subject out of the equation. The US Senate current as of February 17, 2006:




Affiliation
Members
Note


Republican Party
55



Democratic Party
44



Independent
1
Caucuses with the Democrats

Total
100


Based upon the article what is your guess as to the vote?  My guess was that it was close to the make of of the Senate. If not, the "GOP-controlled" modifier wasn't germane to the story. At least that's what they taught me in writing classes. If you were reporting facts/details only write about specifics influencing the results. But that's no longer the case. The vote in the Senate was 86-13. Even a less stringent proposal was defeated 60-39.

My point is when it comes to issues ignore any political party affiliation. Realize that the information you are getting is skewered. This hold whether it comes from the Communist News Network (CNN) or Foolish Opinionated Xenophobics (FOX)

My apologies to anyone who feels this isn't important. To me, the skewered coverage of news and events in the world is a major problem. It goes beyond Political Correctness, it's a matter of being "correct". They are illegal aliens NOT immigrants. They are Muslim religion inspired terrorists not repressed indigenous people.

Here is the link to the entire article: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060622/ap_on_go_co/us_iraq_36;_ylt=AlpTYpFxVZFwGsbvvhUUcP5X6GMA;_ylu=X3oDMTBiMW04NW9mBHNlYwMlJVRPUCUl
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RE: Iraq Senate Vote - 6/22/2006 2:00:37 PM   
lisa1978


Posts: 224
Joined: 5/19/2006
From: Kansas City
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

My point is when it comes to issues ignore any political party affiliation. Realize that the information you are getting is skewered. This hold whether it comes from the Communist News Network (CNN) or Foolish Opinionated Xenophobics (FOX)

My apologies to anyone who feels this isn't important. To me, the skewered coverage of news and events in the world is a major problem. It goes beyond Political Correctness, it's a matter of being "correct". They are illegal aliens NOT immigrants. They are Muslim religion inspired terrorists not repressed indigenous people.

Here is the link to the entire article: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060622/ap_on_go_co/us_iraq_36;_ylt=AlpTYpFxVZFwGsbvvhUUcP5X6GMA;_ylu=X3oDMTBiMW04NW9mBHNlYwMlJVRPUCUl


I agree totally and loved your comments on Fox and CNN.

I do not know when it changed or if it ever changed, but news organizations are all about ratings now a days and not about reporting the facts. Reporting that the resolutions were not totally partisan or why the resolutions were so flawed and the motivations behind them, we get look at a few Dems and Rep fighting and putting each party down in sound bite form.

Conflict and bickering is more entertaining apparently than reporting facts. Must play to our base goes for networks as much as politicians.







_____________________________

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RE: Iraq Senate Vote - 6/22/2006 2:14:46 PM   
pahunkboy


Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		Well- today I choose not to get upset over ANYTHING Iraqish.

Thank god the bush did not get his Social Security reform passed thru.

[tho] The US treasury is running on fumes. 

(in reply to lisa1978)
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RE: Iraq Senate Vote - 6/22/2006 10:14:13 PM   
Termyn8or


Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline 		This partisanship must stop, not so much in the halls of the Whitehouse,
but in our minds. I have to try to tell my Father this from time to time. He
calls then repubicans, as a sign of really sincere disrespect. Carter and
Clinton were democraps I guess.

They all have the same mindset if any, then there are the stooopid ones.

A whopping thirteen of them voted against it eh ? Just get rid of the other 86.

T

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RE: Iraq Senate Vote - 6/23/2006 4:09:57 AM   
irishbynature


Posts: 551
Joined: 5/11/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth
My apologies to anyone who feels this isn't important. To me, the skewered coverage of news and events in the world is a major problem. It goes beyond Political Correctness, it's a matter of being "correct".


Excellent post Merchbeth. This is a huge concern of mine as well. The worst part is that many Americans actually believe these things to be fact, without checking the source.

Entertainment News --CNN, FOX , .is "entertainment", esp. the Talking Heads (Liberal vs. Conservative). All designed to keep people and ideas at odds....

When it comes to the this war, it's propaganda: (noun) 1.information or publicity put out by an organization or government to spread and promote a policy, idea, doctrine, or cause; 2.Deceptive or distorted information that is systematically spread.

What also bothers me is that it was the Nazis who perfected the use of the media to sway public opinion and educate to their liking and many Germans fell prey to this. Problem is: Why are many Americans doing the same? Weapons of Mass Destruction? Lions Tigers and Bears, Oh My!!! (Oh, that's right, they moved them to Syria. Eye roll.)

Finally, when corporations own the Media, they decide what goes in and what stays out of the news. When corporations have the politicans, then, votes are decided upon their needs and not "We the People." I was taught it was Fascism.
Warmly,
Irish


_____________________________


What seems nasty, painful, or evil, can become a source of beauty, joy, and strength, for those who have the vision to recognize it as such. Henry Miller


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RE: Iraq Senate Vote - 6/23/2006 4:15:16 AM   
Lordandmaster


Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline 		Except for the fact that you mean "skewed," not "skewered" ("skewered" is what happens to US when we listen to news that's skewed), that was an informative post.  To me, though, it highlights something a little different from what you pointed out: not so much that the mainstream news sources are skewed (though of course they are), but that most Democrats have been pussies about the war since Day 1.

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RE: Iraq Senate Vote - 6/23/2006 4:26:38 AM   
pahunkboy


Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline

quote:


 

Entertainment News --CNN, FOX , .is "entertainment", esp. the Talking Heads (Liberal vs. Conservative). All designed to keep people and ideas at odds....

When it comes to the this war, it's propaganda: (noun) 1.information or publicity put out by an organization or government to spread and promote a policy, idea, doctrine, or cause; 2.Deceptive or distorted information that is systematically spread.

What also bothers me is that it was the Nazis who perfected the use of the media to sway public opinion and educate to their liking and many Germans fell prey to this. Problem is: Why are many Americans doing the same? Weapons of Mass Destruction? Lions Tigers and Bears, Oh My!!! (Oh, that's right, they moved them to Syria. Eye roll.)

Finally, when corporations own the Media, they decide what goes in and what stays out of the news. When corporations have the politicans, then, votes are decided upon their needs and not "We the People." I was taught it was Fascism.
Warmly,
Irish




Kick azz post!!!   I agree with you.  :-)  you ROCK!

(in reply to irishbynature)
Profile   Post #: 7
RE: Iraq Senate Vote - 6/23/2006 6:09:23 AM   
irishbynature


Posts: 551
Joined: 5/11/2006
Status: offline 		Thank ya pahunk

_____________________________


What seems nasty, painful, or evil, can become a source of beauty, joy, and strength, for those who have the vision to recognize it as such. Henry Miller


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RE: Iraq Senate Vote - 6/23/2006 6:32:31 AM   
pahunkboy


Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		I have felt the same way- per your post.

I love your colorful and elequent wording. It makes the point.

Thanks! :-)

(in reply to irishbynature)
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Getting out RE: Iraq Senate Vote - 6/23/2006 7:35:04 AM   
JohnWarren


Posts: 3807
Joined: 3/18/2005
From: Delray Beach, FL
Status: offline 		I wish the democrats would stop focusing on dates.  This is just playing in the hands of the chicken hawks.   Anyone knows that a specific date does give hope to the bad guys and are subject to change when another "big bad event" occurs.

What we need is to demand that the president declare the objective standards by which he will decide to withdraw troops.  For example, he keep bragging that the Iraq army is getting bigger, stronger and more competent.  Let him announce that when 500,000 Iraq troops have completed advanced combat training and have taken part either on point or in support of one combat operation we will leave.

This puts him in the position of either having to admit that we really aren't doing all that well in producing an Iraq army (Did you know they have the right to resign any time, even in the middle of combat?) or keep up the happy lies and finally have to let go because what he announces as "troop strength" matches with objective criteria.

I finally decided a year or so ago, this didn't have a chance of working when I read a short article that said that half of all the Army recruits left the Army immediately after basic training.  The fuzzbrain writing the article suggested that the training was too harsh.  If that were true, since they can leave any time, they'd be leaving during basic.  What I saw was an intelligent and dedicated group of young men who were taking advantage of a well run "how to kill the other guy" school but weren't planning on using that training in an Iraqi uniform.  And peopel are wondering why the local and regional sectarian militias are getting so good?

< Message edited by JohnWarren -- 6/23/2006 7:36:22 AM >

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RE: Getting out RE: Iraq Senate Vote - 6/23/2006 9:42:54 AM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline
quote:

I read a short article that said that half of all the Army recruits left the Army immediately after basic training.  The fuzzbrain writing the article suggested that the training was too harsh.  If that were true, since they can leave any time, they'd be leaving during basic.  What I saw was an intelligent and dedicated group of young men who were taking advantage of a well run "how to kill the other guy" school but weren't planning on using that training in an Iraqi uniform.  And people are wondering why the local and regional sectarian militias are getting so good?


John,
What a great way to train your troops without having a centralized training center subject to attack! I've always respected the intelligence and thought process of the Muslim terrorists. I will use the situation you bring to my attention as an example of how they should not be underestimated for their forward thinking. If you still have it, I'd love to read the entire article.

Do you think the writer actually believed the words in the article he wrote or was he just hoping that the majority of readers wouldn't be astute enough to read it correctly as you did? My guess is that he was relying on the lack of his readers insight. The problem with the issue the post brings up is the fear that the article's author, along with the majority of establishment news sources is accurately assessing the reasoning skills of the majority of their audience.

I think we want the same result, total withdraw from the region, but for different reasons. I say so what? I think more and more US citizens feel the same way, but can't get behind the names we call each other to agree to work together to achieve that common result.

I see no negative consequence of abandoning these people. I find it amazing that President Bush argues and gives speeches about bringing "freedom" to a region where the people do not want freedom. No Muslim country permits even the basic right of free expression. As immigrants they export intolerance as the example of the a comic representation of Mohammad initiated riots and the murders in Amsterdam. Not one drop of US military blood should be shed on their behalf. But because you are a 'left wing liberal' hoping to bring the downfall of the US, and I'm a cold hearted 'right wing wacko' looking to set up a right wing fascist state; our common goal will be hard to achieve.

The press, as I tried to point out here, appears to fuel the fire.

(in reply to JohnWarren)
Profile   Post #: 11
RE: Iraq Senate Vote - 6/23/2006 9:57:07 AM   
caitlyn


Posts: 3473
Joined: 12/22/2004
Status: offline 		It seems to me that the reporting is accurate, right up until you get to Senator Frist's comments.
 
Broken down:
  • Republicans do control the Senate. This is factual.
  • Democrats did sponsor the bill. Not all Democrats, but the report didn't say all Democrats. This is also factual.
  • Polls do show that the war is becoming increasingly unpopular. This also seems factual.

Now, when you get to Senator Frist's comments, the matter becomes cloudy. "Withdrawl is not an option", is his opinion and may or may not represent fact. "Surrender is not a solution" is hardly a statement that dignifies Senator Frist. I didn't see the word "surrender" used by anyone but him. When he characterizes someone else as defeatist, he is again only stating his opinion.
 
He might be better served articulating to the voter exactly what the mission is, and why it is important to accomplish it. There are many voters willing to understand with an open mind, if viable reasons are given. The problem arises when the reasons change as the wind blows.
 
In my opinion, this is an instance where the media is taking a hit, for simply stating what a United States Senator actually said. Then again, I don't feel as jaded towards the media as most people. It is not their fault that so many people can't make decision for themselves, but instead look to someone tasked with selling papers, airtime, or radio programs, to make those decisions for them.
 
Then again, blaming the media is more acceptable then admitting that we have stupid voters that vote based on whom the "like" rather than who is the best person to lead.

< Message edited by caitlyn -- 6/23/2006 9:59:24 AM >

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RE: Getting out RE: Iraq Senate Vote - 6/23/2006 10:03:39 AM   
JohnWarren


Posts: 3807
Joined: 3/18/2005
From: Delray Beach, FL
Status: offline 		ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth
quote:


quote:

I read a short article that said that half of all the Army recruits left the Army immediately after basic training.  The fuzzbrain writing the article suggested that the training was too harsh.  If that were true, since they can leave any time, they'd be leaving during basic.  What I saw was an intelligent and dedicated group of young men who were taking advantage of a well run "how to kill the other guy" school but weren't planning on using that training in an Iraqi uniform.  And people are wondering why the local and regional sectarian militias are getting so good?


John,
What a great way to train your troops without having a centralized training center subject to attack! I've always respected the intelligence and thought process of the Muslim terrorists. I will use the situation you bring to my attention as an example of how they should not be underestimated for their forward thinking. If you still have it, I'd love to read the entire article.
It was a newspaper article and I can't even remember what paper it was in.  I can kinda visualize myself reading it in a hotel room so I may have come from a Chicago or Oklahoma City paper, those are the locations the last two lectures I've done
quote:



Do you think the writer actually believed the words in the article he wrote or was he just hoping that the majority of readers wouldn't be astute enough to read it correctly as you did? My guess is that he was relying on the lack of his readers insight. The problem with the issue the post brings up is the fear that the article's author, along with the majority of establishment news sources is accurately assessing the reasoning skills of the majority of their audience.

After my time in the foreign press, I don't hold up much trust in the analytical skills of a lot of them, particularly the US Ivy League crew.  As with this article, I sort of mine for factual information from which I can construct my own hypotheses.
quote:



I think we want the same result, total withdraw from the region, but for different reasons. I say so what? I think more and more US citizens feel the same way, but can't get behind the names we call each other to agree to work together to achieve that common result.
I see no negative consequence of abandoning these people. I find it amazing that President Bush argues and gives speeches about bringing "freedom" to a region where the people do not want freedom. No Muslim country permits even the basic right of free expression. As immigrants they export intolerance as the example of the a comic representation of Mohammad initiated riots and the murders in Amsterdam. Not one drop of US military blood should be shed on their behalf. But because you are a 'left wing liberal' hoping to bring the downfall of the US, and I'm a cold hearted 'right wing wacko' looking to set up a right wing fascist state; our common goal will be hard to achieve.

The press, as I tried to point out here, appears to fuel the fire.


I do think we have the same goal: make the US safer from attack.  As in so much, the devil is in the details.  For example, I was overjoyed when Turkey refused to support us because I saw it as an opportunity to give the Kurds a homeland.  If Turkey objected, we could just say "you didn't want to help liberate; now you don't get a vote."  This way the Kurds would love us (for as long as gratitude lasts in international politics, Syria and Iran would have major internal problems and we'd look so damned noble.  Same same for Shai and Sunni "homelands."  Sure they'd fight.  Little banana/grease wars that would keep them weak and inward looking. 

Bush blew our chance to do this and be heroes and now they are going to do it on their own and they hate us for making them work for it.

Finally, I wish Bush would shut up about "bringing democracy to the Middle East."  While most there don't really want democracy so much as they want "my gang on top" he's making the present leaders very nervous.  Why should they make any effort to help with gas prices in the US when, in effect, we have a president calling for their ouster..... and "ouster" in that part of the world usually means blood on a whitewashed wall outside the palace.

< Message edited by JohnWarren -- 6/23/2006 10:06:56 AM >

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RE: Getting out RE: Iraq Senate Vote - 6/23/2006 12:40:46 PM   
irishbynature


Posts: 551
Joined: 5/11/2006
Status: offline 		Hum. Alot to chew on about the Iraqi situation. However, I think the main point gets lost.

1. Bush lied. (then blamed the CIA, INTEL) Check out the Aug. 8, 2001 memo given to him at the Ranch in Crawford. The memo was questioned a great deal in the 911 Commission Hearings. (Google--you will find it)
2. Radical Muslims came INTO Iraq with wide open borders just waiting for the war to begin.
3. The person(s) responsible for the attacks in Europe and America were not from Iraq. They were from Saudi. Saudi harbors these people. (Oh forgot, they have oil already refined...oops!) *Snicker*
4. Iraq not only has Muslims; it has Christians (one million christians), Jews....Persians.
5. Our troops have inferior body armor and protection. How many military generals just spoke out and said the war was going very poorly? (Lack of supplies, troops....) How can we allow this to go on and our troops be treated this way?
6. Haliburton, Harken, Unical. (Check into these corporations then ask me about who's benefitting from this war and why.)
7. The Iraqi people who have lived peaceful lives, intending no harm to anyone--now face being in the crossfire of our troops vs. the Radicals who crossed into their country to fight our troops.
8. Civil War results - Sunni (the 25 percent ruling party) vs. the 75 percent repressed Shia in Iraq  majority ...who were harmed the worst under Saddam.
9. Anyone found any WMDS?
10. 17,000 missing and wounded....2500 + dead.

The list builds...what do we do?
Irish


< Message edited by irishbynature -- 6/23/2006 12:41:41 PM >

_____________________________


What seems nasty, painful, or evil, can become a source of beauty, joy, and strength, for those who have the vision to recognize it as such. Henry Miller


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RE: Getting out RE: Iraq Senate Vote - 6/23/2006 2:39:45 PM   
Lordandmaster


Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline 		Yes, and don't forget Blackwater.  Their purpose is to avoid a draft.

quote:

ORIGINAL: irishbynature

6. Haliburton, Harken, Unical. (Check into these corporations then ask me about who's benefitting from this war and why.)


< Message edited by Lordandmaster -- 6/23/2006 2:40:09 PM >

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RE: Getting out RE: Iraq Senate Vote - 6/23/2006 2:56:41 PM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline 		The only country that benefits from the war in Iraq is Isreal which is staking a claim to yet more Palastinian land while no one is in the position to object. As for companies, well that is just capitalism, jackels feeding on carion.

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RE: Getting out RE: Iraq Senate Vote - 6/23/2006 3:09:18 PM   
Lordandmaster


Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline 		You have to read more about how this war has been waged, and who has been involved in promoting it, before you can make statements like that.  It's not capitalism when other companies don't have fair access to the bidding process.  Was any other corporation in a position to challenge Halliburton?  No--even though many have claimed that they could provide the same services for less money.  Their problem is simple: They happen not to have a former executive as the current Vice President of the United States.

It's not capitalism.  It's crony capitalism, and it stinks.  I know all you Israel-haters try to find Israel at the root of every single problem in the world today, but we have plenty of villains in our own government too.

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

The only country that benefits from the war in Iraq is Isreal which is staking a claim to yet more Palastinian land while no one is in the position to object. As for companies, well that is just capitalism, jackels feeding on carion.


< Message edited by Lordandmaster -- 6/23/2006 3:11:27 PM >

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RE: Getting out RE: Iraq Senate Vote - 6/23/2006 5:05:35 PM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

It's not capitalism.  It's crony capitalism, and it stinks.  I know all you Israel-haters try to find Israel at the root of every single problem in the world today, but we have plenty of villains in our own government too.



I don't hate Isreal, I think it has a right to exist but it certainly needs to be controled and it would have been better concentrating on a solution for that conflict before starting others. After yet more attempts at extra-judicial executions in the last couple of weeks it has left 26 innocent civilians dead, mainly women and children and a couple pregnant women at that. There is little difference between what Isreal does and the terrorists we are supposed to be at war with. The west's uneven handedness in that conflict is one of the reasons the Islamic world thinsk the west is hypocritical when it talks about rights.

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RE: Getting out RE: Iraq Senate Vote - 6/23/2006 8:19:25 PM   
Lordandmaster


Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline 		This thread was about the war in Iraq, not Israel.  Israel isn't fighting a war in Iraq.  If you want to start a thread about Israel, I'm sure a lot of people would contribute to it, myself included.  But I think it's a big mistake to believe that Israel has much to do with the war we are fighting in Iraq right now.  The reasons lie much closer to home and have to do with dollars and cents, not ideology.

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Profile   Post #: 19
RE: Iraq Senate Vote - 6/23/2006 9:22:10 PM   
UtopianRanger


Posts: 3251
Status: offline 		 

''Ye all bow down to Big Brother.''  HAR!!


 - R


PS - Gerbils, Schmitt and the Nazi's took their cue from the ''father'' of propaganda, an American - Edward Bernays.

< Message edited by UtopianRanger -- 6/23/2006 9:24:34 PM >

_____________________________

"If you are going to win any battle, you have to do one thing. You have to make the mind run the body. Never let the body tell the mind what to do... the body is never tired if the mind is not tired."

-General George S. Patton


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