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18+ versus 21+ - 6/22/2006 11:25:48 AM   
fullofgrace


Posts: 395
Joined: 3/24/2006
From: fl, usa
Status: offline 		i am in the process of obtaining info about a local bdsm group - the only one, as far as i know, in the city where i live (all the others i can find info on seem to now be defunct). however, i think the group i am checking into is 21+ only. in light of this, i am considering starting my own discussion group for those 18+.

my question is...is there a particular reason (legal or otherwise - besides the ability to have alcohol at meetings) why the group (or any group, really) restricts itself to 21+? as far as i know, florida doesn't have any particular restrictive laws as far as those 18-21 viewing pornography or anything of that nature (at least, it's legal to buy pornography here at the age of 18). i am mostly asking because i want to make sure there are no legal reasons, as i don't want to run into trouble if i end up starting a discussion group.


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RE: 18+ versus 21+ - 6/22/2006 11:31:25 AM   
MrDiscipline44


Posts: 1776
Joined: 1/5/2005
Status: offline 		I've never heard of any real legal reason for people to make there groups 21 or over. Considering that most if not all of the porn site are 18 and over, I believe it's done so that there can be no purposed legal violation. I could be wrong.

Some groups I've seen have higher age limits. But that is more because of the narrow-mindedness of the administrators then anything legally.

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RE: 18+ versus 21+ - 6/22/2006 11:35:36 AM   
OsideGirl


Posts: 14441
Joined: 7/1/2005
From: United States
Status: offline 		 
I know at the Lair, they allow members to bring their own alcoholic beverages, so no one under 21 is allowed in. Other clubs in the area allow 18 and up and do not serve or allow alcohol. So, I would guess that's why.

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RE: 18+ versus 21+ - 6/22/2006 11:41:08 AM   
fullofgrace


Posts: 395
Joined: 3/24/2006
From: fl, usa
Status: offline 		apparently this group doesn't allow alcohol at munches or play parties, but i can understand restricting the age because of alcohol (for other groups).

thanks so much for both of your responses :)


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RE: 18+ versus 21+ - 6/22/2006 11:42:04 AM   
thetammyjo


Posts: 6322
Joined: 9/8/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MrDiscipline44

I've never heard of any real legal reason for people to make there groups 21 or over. Considering that most if not all of the porn site are 18 and over, I believe it's done so that there can be no purposed legal violation. I could be wrong.

Some groups I've seen have higher age limits. But that is more because of the narrow-mindedness of the administrators then anything legally.


I agree with you, MrDiscipline44.

Someone might say "We meet in a bar and you have to be 21 to come in". Unless you are in a very very tiny town where the only place to meet is a bar or someone's home, then you make a choice to limit by age when you choose the bar.

I know because I've hosted two munches that finding a location can be tricky because you have to balance several factors but age versus alcohol is easy -- most restaurants do serve alcohol afterall.

Price, food choices, wheelchair accessible, seeing eye dog friendly, good atmosphere to talk in, privacy or semi-privacy, ability to be seen by newcomers but not out in the mundanes faces, and other things are much more complicated to work out.



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RE: 18+ versus 21+ - 6/22/2006 11:52:29 AM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: fullofgrace
my question is...is there a particular reason (legal or otherwise - besides the ability to have alcohol at meetings) why the group (or any group, really) restricts itself to 21+? as far as i know, florida doesn't have any particular restrictive laws as far as those 18-21 viewing pornography or anything of that nature (at least, it's legal to buy pornography here at the age of 18). i am mostly asking because i want to make sure there are no legal reasons, as i don't want to run into trouble if i end up starting a discussion group.

Nope, just a measure of "extra protection and comfort for the members"

When BESS was deciding its cutoff, there was a LOT of debate about this.  Sadly, it was decided that 21 was the age of cutoff for BESS specific contributor events.

People under 21 are still allowed at BESS social events such as our special interest groups where non-contributors may attend, or if they have socials at the Crucible where BESS is simply a sponsor of the event.  But they aren't allowed at business meetings, or have any other contributor benefits.

There's no real issue around it other than what the contributorship of the group feels most comfortable with- just like the issue BR has over whether to allow full intercourse at events in DC.  There's nothing legally stopping it.



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RE: 18+ versus 21+ - 6/22/2006 12:04:34 PM   
MrDiscipline44


Posts: 1776
Joined: 1/5/2005
Status: offline 		I guess the type of group should be defined to give a better opinion. I can see play-parties and clubs because of legal reasons. In Colorado, you have to have a special liecense to open a legal BDSM club and you have to go to court to apply for this licence. It takes a few years to aquire and any little thing can tank a person getting it. This is why they're 21 and up here.

I can't see making a munch 21 and up. Thats just silly but thats my opinion.

Other events, I would say, depends on the place they're held. A club may still have to hold to the age rule. A private home I can see not allowing under 21.

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Have you slapped your slave today?

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RE: 18+ versus 21+ - 6/22/2006 1:10:47 PM   
Alumbrado


Posts: 5560
Status: offline 		Let's just say that 18 has been the age of majority long enough for people to know better...but they don't seem to want to in some instances.

Then again,  what can you expect in Tallapatch?


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RE: 18+ versus 21+ - 6/22/2006 1:27:31 PM   
Wildfleurs


Posts: 1650
Joined: 9/24/2004
From: Connecticut
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: fullofgrace

i am in the process of obtaining info about a local bdsm group - the only one, as far as i know, in the city where i live (all the others i can find info on seem to now be defunct). however, i think the group i am checking into is 21+ only. in light of this, i am considering starting my own discussion group for those 18+.

my question is...is there a particular reason (legal or otherwise - besides the ability to have alcohol at meetings) why the group (or any group, really) restricts itself to 21+? as far as i know, florida doesn't have any particular restrictive laws as far as those 18-21 viewing pornography or anything of that nature (at least, it's legal to buy pornography here at the age of 18). i am mostly asking because i want to make sure there are no legal reasons, as i don't want to run into trouble if i end up starting a discussion group.



First off, let me say that its great that you are doing this!  Its actually the precise reason I started my munch.  I was 19 and the closest group was 21+ (even now, two out of the three groups are 21+).  So once I started my own munch all the people that were part of the groups (including people who thought it should be 21+) came to my munch.

I don't think there is any legal reason for a group that doesn't involve alcohol to be 21+ except thats what people who are older prefer.  And most groups are for the most part populated by people 35+.  So majority rules.

C~


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RE: 18+ versus 21+ - 6/22/2006 2:37:52 PM   
Archer


Posts: 3207
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline 		The best explination I've come accrosss for having a group be 21+ is two fold, it's harder for a 17 year old to lie and pass for 21 than it is to pass for 18. And second and making the most sense is that the media if a story breaks isn't able to lead with the headline "LOCAL TEENS involved in sex slave group". The media make no difference between 19 and 15 when it comes to sensationalizing a story, and they can and will use the TEEN word to instill fear and frenzy in local populations without reguard to the facts.

I've seen headlines where they say things like 8 teens were among those arrested in a bust for being underage in a sex club. and only when you read line 100 of the story do you find that only one 16 year old was underage the other 7 teens were 18+ but were arrested with the rest of the adults. The bad publicity is something most club owners and leaders simply want to avoid.

In Leather

Archer

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RE: 18+ versus 21+ - 6/22/2006 2:45:32 PM   
iliv2servher


Posts: 228
Joined: 5/17/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: fullofgrace

i am in the process of obtaining info about a local bdsm group - the only one, as far as i know, in the city where i live (all the others i can find info on seem to now be defunct). however, i think the group i am checking into is 21+ only. in light of this, i am considering starting my own discussion group for those 18+.

my question is...is there a particular reason (legal or otherwise - besides the ability to have alcohol at meetings) why the group (or any group, really) restricts itself to 21+? as far as i know, florida doesn't have any particular restrictive laws as far as those 18-21 viewing pornography or anything of that nature (at least, it's legal to buy pornography here at the age of 18). i am mostly asking because i want to make sure there are no legal reasons, as i don't want to run into trouble if i end up starting a discussion group.



The age of consent laws vary from state to state, and it is within the juristictional authority of each state to mandate those laws.

http://www.actwin.com/eatonohio/gay/consent.htm

It could be that this group is concerned about the legal drinking age, or perhaps because it is easier to determine the age of a person who is 21 or older, as opposed to someone who is 18-21.  In the state of Florida, the legal age of consent is 18.

I would ask the group why they have this rule.

-iliv2

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RE: 18+ versus 21+ - 6/22/2006 4:45:08 PM   
MichMasochist


Posts: 234
Joined: 12/23/2005
Status: offline 		That is exactly how it was explained to me when I attended a munch for the first time.  Just to take most of the guess work out of is she, or he, legal.  I hafta agree with the reasoning.  Had I entered the establishment and saw anyone who looked as possibly being too young, I'd have turned around walked out. Might have even called the cops on the slightest chance that there actually were children there.

We all know that the main stream news media is far more concerned with sensationalism than trueth and substance.

< Message edited by MichMasochist -- 6/22/2006 4:50:34 PM >

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RE: 18+ versus 21+ - 6/22/2006 5:49:39 PM   
CrappyDom


Posts: 1883
Joined: 4/11/2006
From: Sacramento
Status: offline 		I think it is to provide a buffer for maturity as much as anything.  Although if you started an 18 and over group, watch how many men show up at your first meeting.

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RE: 18+ versus 21+ - 6/22/2006 6:10:08 PM   
ArchangelMichael


Posts: 243
Joined: 8/21/2004
From: New Orleans, LA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: fullofgrace

i am in the process of obtaining info about a local bdsm group - the only one, as far as i know, in the city where i live (all the others i can find info on seem to now be defunct). however, i think the group i am checking into is 21+ only. in light of this, i am considering starting my own discussion group for those 18+.

my question is...is there a particular reason (legal or otherwise - besides the ability to have alcohol at meetings) why the group (or any group, really) restricts itself to 21+? as far as i know, florida doesn't have any particular restrictive laws as far as those 18-21 viewing pornography or anything of that nature (at least, it's legal to buy pornography here at the age of 18). i am mostly asking because i want to make sure there are no legal reasons, as i don't want to run into trouble if i end up starting a discussion group.



I encourage you to find a local TNG (The Next Generation) group. They are generally for ages 18 - 35. This is good because there is a focus on the younger crowd and the younger folks who are creeped out by hanging with people their parents' age will be more comfortable. If one doesn't exist, I do suggest starting one. I did in New Orleans and it's still going.


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RE: 18+ versus 21+ - 6/22/2006 6:23:07 PM   
FlaviusCarves


Posts: 16
Joined: 2/6/2005
Status: offline 		Perhaps, only perhaps, many view under 21 as not knowing yet what trhey fully want in life and dont wish to be bothered. a 21 is definately more mature than an 18 year old, 99% of the time anyway.

FC

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RE: 18+ versus 21+ - 6/22/2006 6:33:00 PM   
littlesarbonn


Posts: 1710
Joined: 12/3/2005
From: Stockton, California
Status: offline 		I know this sounds really bad, but I'd personally feel a lot "safer" if I was attending meetings of this nature that advertised for 21+ rather than 18+. There is too much bad stuff going on these days that the more careful a venue is, the better someone is going to feel.

When it comes to relationships, I don't even look for anyone that's under 25, and usually focus on 30 and above. But that's more of a maturity and common frame of reference thing than anything else.

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RE: 18+ versus 21+ - 6/22/2006 9:55:01 PM   
slaveofdarkhold


Posts: 124
Joined: 3/15/2006
Status: offline 		I'm going to agree that it's probably an extra level of security and peace of mind for the owners.
Here it's legal to buy and drink alcohol at 18, but a lot of regular nightclubs wont accept under 21s for exactly this reason- 16 and 17 year olds can often pass as 18, but rarely as 21. I'd guess it's the same way. In the same sense, a lot of 18 year olds might not be mature enough to deal with this or understand that this is more complex than an orgy. Some 18 year olds can, but it only takes a couple to spoil it for everyone else.So I'd guess allowance is being made for this too, on the grounds that if they're still interested 3 years later when they turn 21, they can still join and are likely to  have a better understanding of the lifestyle after those three years.

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RE: 18+ versus 21+ - 6/22/2006 11:36:24 PM   
fullofgrace


Posts: 395
Joined: 3/24/2006
From: fl, usa
Status: offline 		thanks all for your opinions/views/insight. everything here makes a lot of sense and it's helped my confusion/the concerns i had.

as far as the maturity issue...i live in a city with two universities and a community college, and one of those universities is the number three party school in america...so i am used to being in the middle of immaturity at all ages, particularly those between 18-25, and the difference between 18 and 21 (or 18 and 23 for that matter) isn't as big maturity-wise here. i had thought about it but i never realized it was that much of an issue for that many people.

one of the things i've thought about to deal with the passing-as-being-of-age issue is to require two forms of id, at least, but that's the only thing that might help that i can think of.

i haven't heard back from the group, so i'm assuming they ARE 21+ (there was some ambiguity there, as it only mentioned it in one section of the bylaws). as for the type of group it is...they say play party/munch/seminar, however, they are new and it seems as though they don't have a regular space and haven't yet held a play party so probably haven't gone through all the legal stuff to get a license yet. the type of group i would start would be strictly munch/possibly seminar. i'm more interested in groups for discussion, learning, and friendship than for play.

< Message edited by fullofgrace -- 6/22/2006 11:39:07 PM >

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RE: 18+ versus 21+ - 6/23/2006 3:04:59 AM   
Chaingang


Posts: 1727
Joined: 10/24/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MichMasochist
Had I entered the establishment and saw anyone who looked as possibly being too young, I'd have turned around walked out. Might have even called the cops on the slightest chance that there actually were children there.


Great! Another self-righteous pyscho...

I can understand you leaving, but why would you call the cops? It's not possible that other people were duped while you were not? Your purpose is to get probably innocent people in hot water with the legal system just on your idle suspicions? WTF?



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RE: 18+ versus 21+ - 6/23/2006 3:10:48 AM   
GADomCpl


Posts: 62
Joined: 8/7/2005
Status: offline 		I know here in GA it has to do with the obscenity (spelling?) laws.  Being that this is the buckle of the bible belt they are very restrictive here, and Liz (who happens to be 20) can't even get into a lot of resturants at night on the weekends.  We luckily found a group across the boarder in SC that has been very accepting of us.

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