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Slaves vs Subs?? - 3/24/2013 12:59:58 AM   
JessicaBrooke


Posts: 4
Joined: 3/12/2013
Status: offline 		Hello there!
Thanks for taking the time to read and hopefully share some advice. Tonight, while I was chatting with a Dom I respect very much, I was told that I am not a submissive but I am a slave. That comment is really putting my panties in a twist. From where I stand- being a slave (voluntarily, mind you) is the ultimate submission, is it not?
I have been collared before, and during that time I never once felt I was a slave... I loved to please my Sir, and everything I did for him was out of love and respect. I never once felt 'enslaved' because it was my choice to serve him. Yes, I called him Master, and yes he called me pet, or slave when I was naughty, but I never felt that I was chained to him. I stayed at his side by choice and wore his collar with pride.

In my mind- there are two types of 'slaves'. The first sort of slave is simply property, a toy to be used and then dismissed. The second type of 'slave' is when a submissive is exclusively serving one Master. She (or he) follows His (or Her) every command without question... I know a lot of these relationships are 24/7, but isn't that still being submissive in nature?

I guess my question is, what do you define as the difference between a slave and a submissive? Where do you draw the line and is there really a difference other than title?

Thanks and warm wishes!
Ms JessicaBrooke
Profile   Post #: 1
RE: Slaves vs Subs?? - 3/24/2013 1:15:33 AM   
peppermint


Posts: 5169
Joined: 10/18/2005
From: Montana
Status: offline 		Everyone has their own definitions of slave and submissive.  It really doesn't matter.  Whatever you decide to call yourself or your partner decides to call you works great.  One person's slave is another's submissive. 

The difference between the two words is argued regularly in the forums.  We each have out own criteria.  As far as I am concerned, everyone is right if it works for them. 

< Message edited by peppermint -- 3/24/2013 1:16:25 AM >

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RE: Slaves vs Subs?? - 3/24/2013 1:34:35 AM   
myotherself


Posts: 7157
Joined: 3/9/2006
From: The cold bit of the UK
Status: offline 		pretty much what Peppermint said

Master and I started out as Dom/sub (by our definition), and then a year or two into our relationship we discussed our definition of Master/slave and realised that we were a closer fit to that. So as far as we're concerned, we're Master and slave.

However, at a play party recently I was told by some random dude that I was clearly 'not a slave' because I had opinions and had no problems sharing them in discussions.

His definition of slave was completely different to my and Master's definition, which is absolutely fine. Whatever floats yer boat!

_____________________________

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RE: Slaves vs Subs?? - 3/24/2013 1:56:23 AM   
JessicaBrooke


Posts: 4
Joined: 3/12/2013
Status: offline 		Thank you, very much! I appreciate the feedback and it makes me feel much better.

I think what that particular Dom said just caught me off guard.
I sometimes forget that there are no "set" definitions with these things.

Cheers!

(in reply to myotherself)
Profile   Post #: 4
RE: Slaves vs Subs?? - 3/24/2013 4:48:19 AM   
JeffBC


Posts: 5799
Joined: 2/12/2012
From: Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: JessicaBrooke
Hello there!
Thanks for taking the time to read and hopefully share some advice. Tonight, while I was chatting with a Dom I respect very much, I was told that I am not a submissive but I am a slave. That comment is really putting my panties in a twist. From where I stand- being a slave (voluntarily, mind you) is the ultimate submission, is it not?

No, it is not. It may well be the ultimate label however :)

She (or he) follows His (or Her) every command without question...
really? without question? So you're talking a mindless automaton here? I have never seen such a person and doubt the human brain is capable of operating in this way. But honestly, if your "two types of slaves" work for you then go for it.

I know a lot of these relationships are 24/7, but isn't that still being submissive in nature?
Huh? what exactly is "submissive in nature"? For that matter, what do you mean by "submissive"?

I guess my question is, what do you define as the difference between a slave and a submissive? Where do you draw the line and is there really a difference other than title?
There is a difference in my mind. The problem is that that difference isn't shared by anyone else in the entire world. That's the rub. We ALL have our definitions and they all vary. In the end I don't spend much time on it because the map is not the terrain -- a label is simply a label. But if you want to know how I use the two terms it goes something like this:

Slave, to me, implies two things. The first is something that reasonably approaches a TPE relationship. The second is an ownership dynamic (which strictly means the two people agree that the slave is 'owned' whatever that might mean to them). For my own relationship Carol is required to have 100% obedience (that is to say, the first time she disobeys is the last).


_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

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RE: Slaves vs Subs?? - 3/24/2013 5:03:18 AM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32566
Status: offline 		Fast reply......

The 'use and throw away' thing has nothing applicable to My concept of slavery.

Ownership, on the other hand, a LIFE of servitude to the one who Masters you, giving that person the authority over your will, is a much different matter.

I also am starting to think that the concept of internal enslavement plays a part in this.

Random dude on the net tells you that you are a slave, take that with the same grain of salt that any other person with a new account sees on the internet.


_____________________________

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Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

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RE: Slaves vs Subs?? - 3/24/2013 5:09:38 AM   
JeffBC


Posts: 5799
Joined: 2/12/2012
From: Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact
I also am starting to think that the concept of internal enslavement plays a part in this.

Heh... if I can't even define external enslavement then I surely can't even begin to approach "internal enslavement".

Yet I agree with you. It sort of ties in with "both parties agree there is ownership present". By "agree" I meant "deep in their heart" not "because it's cool to say I'm owned".

Random dude on the net tells you that you are a slave
Heh... at best what it means is that you're a 'slave' by his definition... whatever that is. In my mind the statement also implies that whoever said it has little real life experience and none with anything I might think of as "slavery".

< Message edited by JeffBC -- 3/24/2013 5:10:08 AM >

_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

(in reply to LadyPact)
Profile   Post #: 7
RE: Slaves vs Subs?? - 3/24/2013 5:37:27 AM   
muhly22222


Posts: 463
Joined: 3/25/2010
Status: offline
quote:

Tonight, while I was chatting with a Dom I respect very much, I was told that I am not a submissive but I am a slave.


When I hear about a Dom telling a girl that she's a slave (when she's listed as a sub), or that she has a "slave heart," I assume that he's just trying to butter her up to get her to submit to him faster. Well, that, or that his definition of slave is "any girl who will go on cam for me." Then again, you say you respect him, which means you've probably been talking for a while, and I'll defer to your greater knowledge of him.

I've found it much easier to not worry about the specific labels and concentrate on the person in front of me.



_____________________________

I have always been among those who believed that the greatest freedom of speech was the greatest safety, because if a man is a fool, the best thing to do is to encourage him to advertise the fact by speaking.
-Woodrow Wilson

(in reply to JessicaBrooke)
Profile   Post #: 8
RE: Slaves vs Subs?? - 3/24/2013 6:20:59 AM   
Kana


Posts: 6676
Joined: 10/24/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: JessicaBrooke

Hello there!
Thanks for taking the time to read and hopefully share some advice. Tonight, while I was chatting with a Dom I respect very much, I was told that I am not a submissive but I am a slave. That comment is really putting my panties in a twist. From where I stand- being a slave (voluntarily, mind you) is the ultimate submission, is it not?
I have been collared before, and during that time I never once felt I was a slave... I loved to please my Sir, and everything I did for him was out of love and respect. I never once felt 'enslaved' because it was my choice to serve him. Yes, I called him Master, and yes he called me pet, or slave when I was naughty, but I never felt that I was chained to him. I stayed at his side by choice and wore his collar with pride.

In my mind- there are two types of 'slaves'. The first sort of slave is simply property, a toy to be used and then dismissed. The second type of 'slave' is when a submissive is exclusively serving one Master. She (or he) follows His (or Her) every command without question... I know a lot of these relationships are 24/7, but isn't that still being submissive in nature?

I guess my question is, what do you define as the difference between a slave and a submissive? Where do you draw the line and is there really a difference other than title?

Thanks and warm wishes!
Ms JessicaBrooke

1-Slavery can be considered the ultimate submission...by some. Bet a whole lotta subs will disagree though.
2-Why can't it be slavery if one chooses to serve? Pretty much all the slaves I've had started as submissives and then became slaves in the end because they couldn't imagine serving me in any other way.
3-What makes you think slaves are simply used and dismissed? It takes lots of time and effort to build that level of trust/surrender. Why would one put forth all that effort only to toss it casually away?
4-Isn't your second definition of slavery pretty much what you say your prior relationship was like, all directions are followed all the time?
5-My line is where my line is. It ain't your line and it ain't at the same place you line is. So whatever I think/feel, here is pretty irrelevant. The key thing is where your line is.
6-If a random stranger on the net says. "Drop everything, come blow him, immediately." do you?
7-From a quick perusal of your profile, I gotta say, you do sound as if you tend towards slavery. JMHO, that's all....

< Message edited by Kana -- 3/24/2013 6:21:20 AM >

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(in reply to JessicaBrooke)
Profile   Post #: 9
RE: Slaves vs Subs?? - 3/24/2013 7:55:41 AM   
slaveboihere


Posts: 26
Joined: 3/14/2013
Status: offline 		Reading your journal entries, you seem to be a very sensible young woman; much more so that I am sometimes, even now! As others have said, everyone's definition of what is sub and what is slave differs. The trick imo is to find a potential Master or Dom whose definition agrees pretty much with yours. And then just go with the flow and enjoy yourselves.

I agree with some of the comments you make in your journal as well; about people putting you down, telling you you're just going to be a fuck toy; slab of meat they use to me sometimes. All of that can be a turn on within a scene; but it isn't really appropriate in a first message! But we all differ. Also, yes; no one has the right to tell you that they own you before you actually know them well enough to make the decision to offer them your submission; and nor do they have the right for you to call them Master before you decide that is the state that exists between you.

You seem to have your head well screwed on. God, you are going to have some fun!

And welcome.

(in reply to Kana)
Profile   Post #: 10
RE: Slaves vs Subs?? - 3/24/2013 10:24:02 AM   
OsideGirl


Posts: 14441
Joined: 7/1/2005
From: United States
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: muhly22222

quote:

Tonight, while I was chatting with a Dom I respect very much, I was told that I am not a submissive but I am a slave.


When I hear about a Dom telling a girl that she's a slave (when she's listed as a sub), or that she has a "slave heart," I assume that he's just trying to butter her up to get her to submit to him faster. Well, that, or that his definition of slave is "any girl who will go on cam for me."


I have found it's because they're hoping "If I tell her she's a submissive, she'll feel inferior, decide that I can make her a slave and she'll come suck my dick".

OP, labels don't matter. Just find something that makes you happy and do it.


_____________________________

Give a girl the right shoes and she will conquer the world. ~ Marilyn Monroe

The Accelerated Velocity of Terminological Inexactitude

(in reply to muhly22222)
Profile   Post #: 11
RE: Slaves vs Subs?? - 3/24/2013 2:25:09 PM   
JessicaBrooke


Posts: 4
Joined: 3/12/2013
Status: offline
quote:

Random dude on the net tells you that you are a slave, take that with the same grain of salt that any other person with a new account sees on the internet.

First of all, he isn't a random person from the internet. We know each other in person and have been chatting for quite a while. I realize that a large number of the "Doms" on this site aren't worth their salt.

quote:

really? without question? So you're talking a mindless automaton here?

Second, I suppose 'without question' was poor choice in words. What I meant by that was simply that the submissive follows commands with complete trust in his/her Dom with minimal resistance. Obviously, trust is one of the most important things in any relationship.

quote:

What makes you think slaves are simply used and dismissed?

I personally, do not think slaves are or should be simply used and dismissed. Again, poor choice in wording in my original post. Being a slave is a large commitment and not something I take lightly. The 'definitions' I used in my first post were extreme generalizations.
Being property or a slave is something special, it's a deep level of being owned by the one I chose to give my heart, mind and will to. I do know a couple subs who call themselves "Slaves" who are only used for sexual acts and are then dismissed. Although I disagree with this, they define themselves as 'sex slaves' and nothing more.

(in reply to OsideGirl)
Profile   Post #: 12
RE: Slaves vs Subs?? - 3/24/2013 3:39:48 PM   
xssve


Posts: 3589
Joined: 10/10/2009
Status: offline 		I don't know about anybody else, but a submissive, to me, is is one who does my bidding, according to her nature and training, to the bset of her abilities - a slave, to me by contrast, is one bound by honor to serve me to the best of her ability.

Or it could be the other way around.

_____________________________

Walking nightmare...

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Profile   Post #: 13
RE: Slaves vs Subs?? - 3/24/2013 7:01:56 PM   
littlewonder


Posts: 15659
Status: offline 		I'm just gonna keep posting this until people stop asking or we get a sticky.

For me and me alone; you decide what's right for you:

sub: consents each and every time to every action. Uses a safeword. Usually their partner is a dom/me

slave: consents once and one only. Does not use a safeword. Usually their partner is a Master/Mistress

bottom: is the receiver of play for sensation purposes and not for power purposes. Partner usually called a Top.

switch: usually is both a top/bottom or sub/dom/me. The two switch depending on their moods.

masochist: Gets off on receiving pain.

sadist: Gets off on giving pain. Some enjoy playing with a masochist who enjoys the pain. Others enjoy playing with someone who submits to the pain but does not necessarily enjoys the pain but they enjoy pleasing the sadist usually because he's also a MasterMistress or Dom/me.

babygirl/boy: enjoys ageplay with a Daddy/Mommy or enjoys being taken care of like a child by a daddy/mommy.

princess: enjoys being pampered

brat: enjoys playing games so they can be "punished" aka funishment

funishment: roleplaying and pretending one is being punished but it's all for fun and not for discipline purposes.

hhmm...I think I've covered the big ones everyone usually asks here.






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RE: Slaves vs Subs?? - 3/25/2013 5:57:33 AM   
LillyBoPeep


Posts: 6873
Joined: 12/29/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: JessicaBrooke

Hello there!
Thanks for taking the time to read and hopefully share some advice. Tonight, while I was chatting with a Dom I respect very much, I was told that I am not a submissive but I am a slave.


I'm always curious, what's the relationship here? Is this person a good friend? Or someone angling to be more than friends? Motivation often plays a factor when people make statements like this towards someone else. (I should add, there are some good friends - a couple of them from CM - who have made statements like this to me, and I trust their opinions because I know they weren't angling for something when they said it. =p)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JessicaBrooke
That comment is really putting my panties in a twist. From where I stand- being a slave (voluntarily, mind you) is the ultimate submission, is it not?


Not necessarily - but in a way. But not necessarily. =p
To me, being a slave is about a concept of ownership. That's pretty much as far as I go with it. Ownership looks differently to everyone, and of course, we voluntarily go into situations of ownership, unlike cars, trucks, or real slaves who are bought and sold illegally. =p

One person owns a house that is falling apart in two years, and someone else owns a 300 year old home that looks like the day it was built. Some people don't mow their lawns but once a month, and others meticulously feed, water, and landscape. Some people have dogs who are incredibly well trained, understand all sorts of commands, and run agility courses. and others have dogs who tear up slippers and books and earn medals when they just don't pee on ALL the furniture in one day. =p
People own differently. Someone without an ownership dynamic may be far more submissive in nature than someone who is in one. Not all slaves are into being submissive, they just feel bound by the ownership concept.

So someone may be owned by a person with a very lenient sense of ownership, who really doesn't care what she does, as long as, at the end of the day, she does whatever one or two things he does expressly ask for. Meanwhile, someone else may be in a Dom/sub relationship that is super strict with very few boundaries, but they don't include an ownership concept in the relationship at all. There's a difference between owner/property and leader/follower - they can totally intersect and exist in the same place at the same time, or they can be different things.

quote:

ORIGINAL: JessicaBrooke
I have been collared before, and during that time I never once felt I was a slave... I loved to please my Sir, and everything I did for him was out of love and respect. I never once felt 'enslaved' because it was my choice to serve him. Yes, I called him Master, and yes he called me pet, or slave when I was naughty, but I never felt that I was chained to him. I stayed at his side by choice and wore his collar with pride.


The last time I was collared, it was like this too, but also within this larger sort of feeling that he DID own me. But I was happy to feel that way. So there was pride in the feeling of being owned by someone I loved and respected. If that makes sense. It seems like the connotation of being "chained" to someone should be negative, but I don't feel it that way at all. When I was owned by that person, I was chained to him, to what he needed or wanted, and compelled to act in accordance, even when I sometimes didn't want to, and that made me genuinely happy.
We didn't use M/s terms, though, because he didn't like them. So we were D/s in name, but because of the ownership idea, we were M/s in action, at least by the way I define things. =p

quote:

ORIGINAL: JessicaBrooke
In my mind- there are two types of 'slaves'. The first sort of slave is simply property, a toy to be used and then dismissed. The second type of 'slave' is when a submissive is exclusively serving one Master. She (or he) follows His (or Her) every command without question... I know a lot of these relationships are 24/7, but isn't that still being submissive in nature?


To me, there are two types - real slaves who are illegally traded around the world, and consensual slaves in M/s relationships, who have consented to an ownership dynamic with someone of their choosing. The rest of it is in the details between the two people involved.

quote:

ORIGINAL: JessicaBrooke
I guess my question is, what do you define as the difference between a slave and a submissive? Where do you draw the line and is there really a difference other than title?



The difference for me is ownership.

< Message edited by LillyBoPeep -- 3/25/2013 5:59:06 AM >

_____________________________

Midwestern Girl

"Obey your Master." Metallica


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Profile   Post #: 15
RE: Slaves vs Subs?? - 3/25/2013 7:49:26 AM   
theshytype


Posts: 1600
Status: offline 		IMO, no one should be putting a label on you other than you yourself. Or, if you're in a relationship then maybe it's a mutually agreed upon label.
By some others' definitions I could be labeled as a slave. Sometimes I feel like a slave. But, I just don't find it to be an appropriate title for myself. I won't call myself a slave and I won't let anyone outside my relationship tell me otherwise.
Regardless of what your friend's opinion is, you don't seem to relate to the title therefore it is my opinion that you shouldn't.

(in reply to LillyBoPeep)
Profile   Post #: 16
RE: Slaves vs Subs?? - 3/26/2013 12:58:43 PM   
subsfaith


Posts: 297
Joined: 11/21/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: JessicaBrooke


I guess my question is, what do you define as the difference between a slave and a submissive? Where do you draw the line and is there really a difference other than title?



Sub and slave labels are used to help us categorise people quickly. In life, labels can be about anything.... e.g. football fan, biker, single mom, stay at home dad.... all labels have stereotypical connotations, based on some example somewhere, sometime... However, because they are a generalisation the commonalities are invariably untrue in lots of cases, e.g. not all European football fans are thugs into organised violence, not all singles moms get pregnant at 15, not all bikers are hairy, and not all slaves are submissive.

So for me the labels sub and slave are just there to help me put the people in the right play park, or close to it. And I really don't care enough to spend any amount of time trying to quantify the definitions or the differences.




(in reply to JessicaBrooke)
Profile   Post #: 17
RE: Slaves vs Subs?? - 3/26/2013 6:16:19 PM   
DesFIP


Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline 		Being a cynic, my line between the two is the following. A slave is someone who will do what I won't. A sub is someone who won't do what I will. Because this is how you see people mainly using the labels, as a way to put down someone else.

Forget about it. Just find someone you can trust with whom you are compatible. Because you don't get any awards for being with someone who likes to do stuff that makes you miserable.

_____________________________

Slave to laundry

Cynical and proud of it!


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Profile   Post #: 18
RE: Slaves vs Subs?? - 3/27/2013 3:36:34 PM   
Renoir


Posts: 6
Joined: 4/3/2008
Status: offline 		Just another unoriginal opinion: In the end it's just a label you pick for yourself unless you belong to a group (BDSM "House", "Club", "Family", etc) that takes labels and definitions seriously. You are what you feel you are so don't worry about it. I would draw the line at someone else trying to define me.

(in reply to DesFIP)
Profile   Post #: 19
RE: Slaves vs Subs?? - 3/31/2013 4:46:17 AM   
SWiron


Posts: 3
Joined: 3/27/2013
Status: offline 		the difference between slavery and submission is primarily in the mind of the sub.

Its all about how much free will and control over her life the sub has. The only practical, day to day difference the words have is in how much fuss a sub gives a dom about non sexual decisions. Slaves give almost total control of their vanilla life to their dominant and submissives are essentially a girl/boyfriend with most of the kink in the bedroom. They may defer to their dominant as a default but are perfectly willing to make their own decisions about life.

(in reply to JessicaBrooke)
Profile   Post #: 20
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