Collarspace Discussion Forums


Home  Login  Search 

RE: Is there a "Right to Education"?


View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
 
All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Dungeon of Political and Religious Discussion >> RE: Is there a "Right to Education"? Page: <<   < prev  6 7 8 9 [10]
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
RE: Is there a "Right to Education"? - 4/12/2013 12:01:00 PM   
vincentML


Posts: 9980
Joined: 10/31/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
quote:

You are missing what I'm saying. I'm saying that government doesn't provide us with our rights. Government is there to protect/secure our rights, or, better yet, enforce our rights. Without Government, we still have what I call human rights. Those are rights that we have simply by being humans.

Your humanity confers no special "rights." Human Rights are a social/cultural invention.


As much as I usually appreciate your insights, I think I'll side with the Framers on this one.


Do you mean the Declaration of Independence? A document drawn up by slave holders and merchants in the slave trade?

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 181
RE: Is there a "Right to Education"? - 4/12/2013 12:04:01 PM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
quote:

You are missing what I'm saying. I'm saying that government doesn't provide us with our rights. Government is there to protect/secure our rights, or, better yet, enforce our rights. Without Government, we still have what I call human rights. Those are rights that we have simply by being humans.

Your humanity confers no special "rights." Human Rights are a social/cultural invention.

As much as I usually appreciate your insights, I think I'll side with the Framers on this one.

Do you mean the Declaration of Independence? A document drawn up by slave holders and merchants in the slave trade?


How does that have any relevance? Bah, never mind. It's not worth the discussion.


_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to vincentML)
Profile   Post #: 182
RE: Is there a "Right to Education"? - 4/12/2013 12:27:42 PM   
vincentML


Posts: 9980
Joined: 10/31/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
quote:

You are missing what I'm saying. I'm saying that government doesn't provide us with our rights. Government is there to protect/secure our rights, or, better yet, enforce our rights. Without Government, we still have what I call human rights. Those are rights that we have simply by being humans.

Your humanity confers no special "rights." Human Rights are a social/cultural invention.

As much as I usually appreciate your insights, I think I'll side with the Framers on this one.

Do you mean the Declaration of Independence? A document drawn up by slave holders and merchants in the slave trade?


How does that have any relevance? Bah, never mind. It's not worth the discussion.


I thought you were relying upon the D of I as the basis for your concept of unalienable human rights. Sorry if I misread your posts.

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 183
RE: Is there a "Right to Education"? - 4/12/2013 1:37:13 PM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
Do you mean the Declaration of Independence? A document drawn up by slave holders and merchants in the slave trade?

How does that have any relevance? Bah, never mind. It's not worth the discussion.

I thought you were relying upon the D of I as the basis for your concept of unalienable human rights. Sorry if I misread your posts.


There is no relevance to their slave holdings or slave tradings. If Man has no rights except for Government, then how is holding slaves wrong, if Government allows it? It isn't wrong, unless it's tied solely to their being humans. That's it. Right there. If Government is the only way we can have any rights whatsoever, then we actually have zero rights. All we have are privileges, and we have absolutely no real say (outside of our votes) in whatever Government decides. God forbid Government decides to take the right to vote away from us. Then, we'd have no say at all.


_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to vincentML)
Profile   Post #: 184
RE: Is there a "Right to Education"? - 4/12/2013 2:53:02 PM   
vincentML


Posts: 9980
Joined: 10/31/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
Do you mean the Declaration of Independence? A document drawn up by slave holders and merchants in the slave trade?

How does that have any relevance? Bah, never mind. It's not worth the discussion.

I thought you were relying upon the D of I as the basis for your concept of unalienable human rights. Sorry if I misread your posts.


There is no relevance to their slave holdings or slave tradings. If Man has no rights except for Government, then how is holding slaves wrong, if Government allows it? It isn't wrong, unless it's tied solely to their being humans. That's it. Right there. If Government is the only way we can have any rights whatsoever, then we actually have zero rights. All we have are privileges, and we have absolutely no real say (outside of our votes) in whatever Government decides. God forbid Government decides to take the right to vote away from us. Then, we'd have no say at all.


How can you not see the relevance? The Founders proclaimed that Liberty was an unalienable right and then failed in the Constitution to insure that right to slaves, indentured servants, and women [who did not have the vote]

At first glance you make a very good point when you say slavery cannot be wrong unless it is tied to their humanity. However, the Declaration is not a declaration of humanity but a declaration of equality. And it is the hypocracy of that statement that is revealed by its having been written by slave holders and slave merchants. History underscores that hypocracy through eighty years of struggle against expansion of the Slave Power, through a Civil War in which 600,000 were slaughtered, and followed by 100 years of Jim Crow laws. It was Government who gave Liberty to the slaves through the 13th Amendment and it was Government who gave the franchise to women by the 19th Amendment. You confuse civil liberties with so called human rights.

The Government did not give slaves and women any privileges. What after all is a privilege? It is a right or advantage given to a restricted group beyond the advantage of most. A right is a privilege only when the holders of the right are restricted. Expanding Liberty is not at all a privilege. It is civil justice. The Government gives it and it just happens the government is made of humans and for humans. So, it is an easy error to equate civil liberty with alleged human rights. Before democratic government liberty was a privilege held only by the powerful. It was never a human right. Without government there are no human rights (civil liberties)


(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 185
RE: Is there a "Right to Education"? - 4/12/2013 3:04:27 PM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		Or Native Americans, which is even more to the point. Because they had Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness long before the Aristocratic Plantation Slavers that penned that cloyingly vacuous shit up came sashaying into Pennsylvania, and lost their We, the People by a little arguing and simple scribbling.

< Message edited by mnottertail -- 4/12/2013 3:06:43 PM >

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


(in reply to vincentML)
Profile   Post #: 186
RE: Is there a "Right to Education"? - 4/12/2013 8:16:39 PM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
Do you mean the Declaration of Independence? A document drawn up by slave holders and merchants in the slave trade? 8|]

How does that have any relevance? Bah, never mind. It's not worth the discussion.

I thought you were relying upon the D of I as the basis for your concept of unalienable human rights. Sorry if I misread your posts.

There is no relevance to their slave holdings or slave tradings. If Man has no rights except for Government, then how is holding slaves wrong, if Government allows it? It isn't wrong, unless it's tied solely to their being humans. That's it. Right there. If Government is the only way we can have any rights whatsoever, then we actually have zero rights. All we have are privileges, and we have absolutely no real say (outside of our votes) in whatever Government decides. God forbid Government decides to take the right to vote away from us. Then, we'd have no say at all.

How can you not see the relevance? The Founders proclaimed that Liberty was an unalienable right and then failed in the Constitution to insure that right to slaves, indentured servants, and women [who did not have the vote]
At first glance you make a very good point when you say slavery cannot be wrong unless it is tied to their humanity. However, the Declaration is not a declaration of humanity but a declaration of equality. And it is the hypocracy of that statement that is revealed by its having been written by slave holders and slave merchants. History underscores that hypocracy through eighty years of struggle against expansion of the Slave Power, through a Civil War in which 600,000 were slaughtered, and followed by 100 years of Jim Crow laws. It was Government who gave Liberty to the slaves through the 13th Amendment and it was Government who gave the franchise to women by the 19th Amendment. You confuse civil liberties with so called human rights.


The only reason the Constitution didn't ban slavery or the slave trade was so the Southern states would sign on. Without the compromise, there wouldn't have been a USA at that time. The Articles of Confederation may have been altered some, but government couldn't truly run efficiently, nor could it keep a Union of the states together.

The Government did not give slaves and women any privileges. What after all is a privilege? It is a right or advantage given to a restricted group beyond the advantage of most. A right is a privilege only when the holders of the right are restricted. Expanding Liberty is not at all a privilege. It is civil justice. The Government gives it and it just happens the government is made of humans and for humans. So, it is an easy error to equate civil liberty with alleged human rights. Before democratic government liberty was a privilege held only by the powerful. It was never a human right. Without government there are no human rights (civil liberties)

I completely disagree. Do Canadians have the right to vote in our elections? No, they do not. Only US Citizens have that privilege. Does a Canadian have the right to Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness? According to the Declaration of Independence, they do. The Declaration of Independence stated that it wasn't Government that gave Man rights, but the Rights were inherent to the individual. Government is instituted among men to protect the inalienable rights of man. If the rights aren't within the individual, what are they inalienable from?




_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to vincentML)
Profile   Post #: 187
RE: Is there a "Right to Education"? - 4/13/2013 2:29:28 PM   
vincentML


Posts: 9980
Joined: 10/31/2009
Status: offline
quote:

I completely disagree. Do Canadians have the right to vote in our elections? No, they do not. Only US Citizens have that privilege. Does a Canadian have the right to Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness? According to the Declaration of Independence, they do. The Declaration of Independence stated that it wasn't Government that gave Man rights, but the Rights were inherent to the individual. Government is instituted among men to protect the inalienable rights of man. If the rights aren't within the individual, what are they inalienable from?

Good. I'm glad you disagree. It gives us an opportunity to parse some concepts and memes 'we' hold as received wisdom.

To the issue: is voting a privilege or a right? Texts of the 15th and 19th Amendments unequivocally bar interference with the RIGHT to vote of citizens based on race, servitude, and sex. Clearly, the people of the US recognize voting as a civil right. Nowhere in our law is voting held to be a privilege.

As to the Declaration . . . I would wish to challenge the text on the two essential points in the cogent assertion: "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness."

Firstly, are all men really created equal? Aren’t some born smarter and stronger and more attractive? Some are born with the talent of Mozart while others barely have the facility to sing on key. Some are born to wealth and many to poverty. So, where is it a self-evident truth that men are created equal? Seems self-evident that they are not.

Secondly, is it self-evident that they are endowed with unalienable rights: life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness? I will accept for the moment the dubious idea that those rights come from a creator. However, I ask you how are these HUMAN rights? I am not questioning the word Rights vs privileges. I am wondering why these are RIGHTS granted only to humans. Does not a horse have the RIGHT to life and liberty? If it does not, then humans are special. So, life and liberty are privileges. If the horse shares the right to life and liberty than those rights are not human rights. If from a creator why not a horse having these rights as well as man?

I am not trying to be niggly here and I appreciate your patience in helping me sort this out. I am trying to lay out a case that human rights are not inherent but a convenient fiction constructed to provide a basis for orderly civil society and decent behavior across borders. In other words, they are civil rights writ large, internationally.


< Message edited by vincentML -- 4/13/2013 2:31:45 PM >

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 188
RE: Is there a "Right to Education"? - 4/13/2013 7:08:54 PM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
quote:

I completely disagree. Do Canadians have the right to vote in our elections? No, they do not. Only US Citizens have that privilege. Does a Canadian have the right to Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness? According to the Declaration of Independence, they do. The Declaration of Independence stated that it wasn't Government that gave Man rights, but the Rights were inherent to the individual. Government is instituted among men to protect the inalienable rights of man. If the rights aren't within the individual, what are they inalienable from?

Good. I'm glad you disagree. It gives us an opportunity to parse some concepts and memes 'we' hold as received wisdom.
To the issue: is voting a privilege or a right? Texts of the 15th and 19th Amendments unequivocally bar interference with the RIGHT to vote of citizens based on race, servitude, and sex. Clearly, the people of the US recognize voting as a civil right. Nowhere in our law is voting held to be a privilege.


In the absence of Government, there is nothing to vote on, thus, no Human right to vote. That would be an example of a civil right.

quote:

As to the Declaration . . . I would wish to challenge the text on the two essential points in the cogent assertion: "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness."
Firstly, are all men really created equal? Aren’t some born smarter and stronger and more attractive? Some are born with the talent of Mozart while others barely have the facility to sing on key. Some are born to wealth and many to poverty. So, where is it a self-evident truth that men are created equal? Seems self-evident that they are not.


In the eyes of the law, all men are created equal. There should be no discrimination based on age, weight, height, skin color, body odor, hair color, etc. Bill Gates is supposed to be treated the same way as a homeless person for the same crime. I am to be treated the same way as DYB or Tazzy is to be treated for the same crime. I know it sure as fuck doesn't work that way, but that's not the fault of the D0I. All Men have the same rights as any other Man.

quote:

Secondly, is it self-evident that they are endowed with unalienable rights: life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness? I will accept for the moment the dubious idea that those rights come from a creator. However, I ask you how are these HUMAN rights? I am not questioning the word Rights vs privileges. I am wondering why these are RIGHTS granted only to humans. Does not a horse have the RIGHT to life and liberty? If it does not, then humans are special. So, life and liberty are privileges. If the horse shares the right to life and liberty than those rights are not human rights. If from a creator why not a horse having these rights as well as man?


Being the dominant species, the rights of all other species don't really matter in comparison. When it comes down to it, you will have a much harder time deciding which person to off (if one *had* to be taken out) compared to offing a person or a horse (if one had to be taken out).

quote:

I am not trying to be niggly here and I appreciate your patience in helping me sort this out. I am trying to lay out a case that human rights are not inherent but a convenient fiction constructed to provide a basis for orderly civil society and decent behavior across borders. In other words, they are civil rights writ large, internationally.


Civil rights are constructed to provide the basis. Human rights are not constructed.


_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to vincentML)
Profile   Post #: 189
RE: Is there a "Right to Education"? - 4/14/2013 2:08:25 AM   
UllrsIshtar


Posts: 3693
Joined: 7/28/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

When it comes down to it, you will have a much harder time deciding which person to off (if one *had* to be taken out) compared to offing a person or a horse (if one had to be taken out).



That depends solely on the context.

There are situations where it'd be much easier to kill the human than the horse.

_____________________________

I can be your whore
I am the dirt you created
I am your sinner
And your whore
But let me tell you something baby
You love me for everything you hate me for

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 190
RE: Is there a "Right to Education"? - 4/14/2013 1:30:12 PM   
vincentML


Posts: 9980
Joined: 10/31/2009
Status: offline
quote:

In the eyes of the law, all men are created equal. There should be no discrimination based on age, weight, height, skin color, body odor, hair color, etc. Bill Gates is supposed to be treated the same way as a homeless person for the same crime. I am to be treated the same way as DYB or Tazzy is to be treated for the same crime. I know it sure as fuck doesn't work that way, but that's not the fault of the D0I. All Men have the same rights as any other Man.

They did not in 1776. Nor do they now. Equality is a monstrous illusion.

quote:

Being the dominant species, the rights of all other species don't really matter in comparison. When it comes down to it, you will have a much harder time deciding which person to off (if one *had* to be taken out) compared to offing a person or a horse (if one had to be taken out).

It is true that we have infested almost every nook and cranny of the earth but so have bacteria, roaches, and rats. We are susceptible to horrific pathogen induced diseases. So, by what criteria do you suppose we are the dominate species? Is that not only a conceit held by western men who live in relative comfort? Are Kenyans the dominant species in the wilds that surround their villages? Why is human life more precious than the life of a horse? I put it to you that the right to life and the fragility of life is shared equally by all manner of creatures. Humans are special only because they think they are special.

And saying it would be easier to kill a horse than a person is a decision colored by who is making it. Certainly not if the horse were making the decision.

quote:

Civil rights are constructed to provide the basis. Human rights are not constructed.

Well, we disagree on this and I imagine our disagreement will not be bridged. If human rights are not constructed from whence do they come? If only from our humanity than they are privileges by definition.

Thanks again, DS

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 191
RE: Is there a "Right to Education"? - 4/14/2013 2:03:01 PM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
Well, we disagree on this and I imagine our disagreement will not be bridged. If human rights are not constructed from whence do they come? If only from our humanity than they are privileges by definition.
Thanks again, DS


We completely agree, Vince. Our disagreement won't be bridged.

Privileges and rights are not the same. Privileges don't simply exist. They are given, or granted. Human rights emanate from our humanity, so they are not given or granted, nor is their existence dependent upon a political construct.

Thanks for the discussion. Unfortunately, it seems that is a rarity on these boards anymore.


_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to vincentML)
Profile   Post #: 192
Page:   <<   < prev  6 7 8 9 [10]
All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Dungeon of Political and Religious Discussion >> RE: Is there a "Right to Education"? Page: <<   < prev  6 7 8 9 [10]
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts




Collarchat.com © 2025
Terms of Service Privacy Policy Spam Policy

0.094