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RE: Another example how feminists can't handle democracy - 4/6/2013 10:18:51 PM   
njlauren


Posts: 1577
Joined: 10/1/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59


quote:

ORIGINAL: FelineRanger

My experience has been that feminism is much like many religions in that the the radical elements have hijacked the fundamentally sound principles. I have no problem with women having the same rights, pay, what have you, as men. I do object to laws being written that give women specific and overwhelming advantages over men. Such laws too often are the explicit goals of individuals and organizations who use "feminism" to disguise the fact that they want that overwhelming advantage.



And who are these "radicals" please?


Please name names and their offenses,if any or what make`s them radical?

I don't have any specific names off the top of my head (with some exceptions), but there are general types:

-The feminists who claim that submissive women are recreating patriarchy, and also believe that male dom/fem sub BD/SM is abuse, and that included an ADA in NYC, Linda Fairstein, who railroaded a guy into being sent to jail for sexual abuse, and basically said that e-mail and such that showed that the girl consented was meaningless. They are as dangerous as any religious right type

-The types that claim that women who choose to stay at home and have kids are sell outs, who are recreating old roles and the like

-The types who are still lost in the burn the bra era, and seem to think that women who choose their own fashion statements and the like, are 'accepting patriarchal notions of what a women is'...why? If they want to dress like bull dykes, that is their right, but it is other women's right to do as they wish. They are a classic example of so called revolutionaries, who want to replace one grinding system of authority with another.

-The anti porn feminists, like Catherine Mackinnon and the thankfully late Andrea Dworkin, whose views blended quite nicely with the religious right, they tried passing laws banning porn and shops selling adult merchandise as 'hurting women'. It didn't work in the US, but they passed laws like that in Canada (I recall they were repealed eventually, thank god), and it was a nightmare, erotica was intercepted in the mail, and ironically some radical dykes up there who supported the law found out they couldn't get fiction they wanted, or even get sex toys..see, what they forgot is their 'allies' were only waiting to get such a law passed, and then use it to enforce their morality on others.

-the ones who see male sexisma and patriarchy in everything, and any time someone tries to make valid points about some aspects of affirmative action and such, these types are jumping around claiming it is the old patriarchy coming into play.

-The academic ones with their reducing everything down to male domination of women, or with idiotic things like 'womyn's herstory' and so forth.

-The people behind the Michigan's Womyns music festival, who won't let female identified trans people attend but let male identified female trans people attend (guess that old y chromosome just makes one a rapist)

-The anti sex feminists, like the aforementioned Andrea Dworkin, who said that if a woman goes to bed with a man, it is tantamount to rape (and led to wonderful things like this checklist men were supposed to go through if they wanted to have sex with a women, literally reduced to something akin to the old 'mother may I' game....).....they turn something like sex into patriarchal brutality, which besides being insulting, also trivializes the real issue of sexual assault.

The whole idea of feminism is it is supposed to free women from rigid systems of authority and give them freedom of choice, not about laying in another big code book of 'feminist approved' behavior. It was horrible when women had limited choices in going to school, or what careers they could go into, or that if they had kids, they almost had no choice but to quit work and stay at home, but it is just as stupid and rigid to say that a stay at home mom was selling out or a waste if it was her choice. If a woman happens to like girly things, like heels and dresses and such, that has zip to do wit feminism, yet we hear that is 'selling out'. Feminism is about choice, about having options, it should be able women being allowed to work at what they wish to and to achieve, it isn't about what some dipshit professor of women's studies thinks it should be.

Part of the backlash against feminism also is reaction to something else, and it shows in some of the posts on here, when I hear about 'special rights'. What that often boils down to, ironically, is some men being bitter about the fact that they didn't have to worry about competing against women, or that in the 'good old days' a male would often get promoted by the boss,in part because 'he has a family to support', it was what they called unearned privilege. Women also have been blamed, unfairly, for the decline in manufacturing and other jobs men could almost have for the asking, which is hogwash, but there are a lot of blue collar men who tell these woeful stories how the jobs disappeared because they were being given to women and minorities (when many of them have literally disappeared.....but they don't want to admit that).

(in reply to Owner59)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: Another example how feminists can't handle democracy - 4/6/2013 10:22:49 PM   
Level


Posts: 25145
Joined: 3/3/2006
Status: offline 		Gloria Allred. I remember her arguing for making the physical tests easier, for women trying to join a fire dept, somewhere in California.

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Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

~~ Stone Temple Pilots

(in reply to njlauren)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: Another example how feminists can't handle democracy - 4/6/2013 11:33:17 PM   
tweakabelle


Posts: 7522
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
Status: offline 		Has any one else noticed that discussion about a movement that has brought about impressive improvements in the quality of life of hundreds of millions of women, enabled innumerable positive social changes, helped free women from sexual and social inferiority (to list just some of feminism's achievements) has been reduced to empty chat about a few of the more extreme statements or positions some feminists have advanced over several decades ?

This is the the type of trivialisation that Peon alerted us to a few posts ago. No one here is claiming that feminism is flawless. But compared to feminism's achievements, these isolated statements and positions are insignificant. They are seized upon by some individuals with agendas that have nothing to do with furthering the interests of women. Often, their specific intentions are belittling womens' progress and feminism - the idiotic OP is one example of this.

Those of us who appreciate the improvements that feminism has brought about should focus more on these achievements and ensure they are at the centre of the discussion any time feminism is being discussed or attacked. These achievements are the correct context for discussion of feminism and its role. Is there any one here who claims that women, and society in general is not the better for all the changes initiated by the women's movement over the years? Is there any one here who claims that overall, feminism has not been a force for the good?


< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 4/6/2013 11:42:46 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 43
RE: Another example how feminists can't handle democracy - 4/7/2013 12:23:00 AM   
herworshipper


Posts: 22
Joined: 1/26/2010
Status: offline 		Personally, I find that there a lot of Feminist radicals around.

Some years ago, they opened up the Vagina Monologues in to men. I knew one of the organizers and she asked me to participate. Some guys I knew said that it was a Lesbian's gig and I should stay away from it. I thought they were just judging the thing harshly and since I was friends with one of the organizers, I decided to participate. Most of the guys involved disappeared quickly, but two other guys and I stuck it out. We worked hard on our parts and came up with a good piece. It was even published in a gender magazine. The local paper wrote us up as well. Several of the women were offended that we were even allowed to participate and the attention we got just enflamed them. I don't know what happed to the other guys, but I got kicked out of the V group after they had a "trial" that I was not allowed to participate in accept to receive their verdict. I heard from several of the women that they were offended at the way that I was treated, but they obviously were not in control.

Now, I am very wary of "feminist groups". And frankly, I am not sure why they are needed other than to give a voice to radicals. You do not need to be a feminist to believe that rape and sexual abuse are wrong, that double standards for pay are wrong or that a woman should have the last say about whether she bares children. Almost everyone I know would support all but the last principle. And those who do not support the last one base their position on religious grounds.

I was raised in a fundamentalist Christian background myself and I was never told by my parents or in Sunday school that rape is acceptable for any reason whatever. I remember debates about whether women should be permitted to do certain jobs, but I never heard that a woman should be paid less than her male co-worker who does the same job. My mother worked until I was about 13, when she took early retirement due to health reasons. I never heard my father say that she was paid too much. In fact when my parents argued about whether women could do the jobs that the men were doing at his work, he was the one who took the position that they could do it. My mother was the one who thought women were unable to do the kind of physical work he did.

Well, that's about all I have to say.

(in reply to tweakabelle)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: Another example how feminists can't handle democracy - 4/7/2013 3:50:33 AM   
Level


Posts: 25145
Joined: 3/3/2006
Status: offline 		Fr

Would she make me a sandwich?

Yes = good feminist

No = bad feminist

_____________________________

Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

~~ Stone Temple Pilots

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Profile   Post #: 45
RE: Another example how feminists can't handle democracy - 4/8/2013 3:28:22 PM   
egern


Posts: 537
Joined: 1/11/2013
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead


quote:

ORIGINAL: TricklessMagic
I've met many feminists while hanging out with gay friends. They tend to be dried up worthless, lonely, childless, annoying bitches.

You shouldn't talk about your gay friends like that.


Oh you made my day!

(in reply to Moonhead)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: Another example how feminists can't handle democracy - 4/8/2013 3:38:55 PM   
egern


Posts: 537
Joined: 1/11/2013
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: FelineRanger

My experience has been that feminism is much like many religions in that the the radical elements have hijacked the fundamentally sound principles. I have no problem with women having the same rights, pay, what have you, as men. I do object to laws being written that give women specific and overwhelming advantages over men. Such laws too often are the explicit goals of individuals and organizations who use "feminism" to disguise the fact that they want that overwhelming advantage.


What laws are you thinking of? I suspect they are very different from country to country, so could you specify a bit?

Another thing that is often overlooked is that feminism is really most needed in non Western countries, where as a woman you cannot inherit, own land, get killed if the family do not pay the dowry, get stoned if you (may) have had an affair, get shot if you are a girl wanting to learn to read and write to acid thrown in your face, are not allowed to drive a car without permission, get your clitoris cut off and so on and so on.

There is a lot to do still in those countries, and the women who try are goddam heroes doing it with their lives at stake.

< Message edited by egern -- 4/8/2013 3:49:43 PM >

(in reply to FelineRanger)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: Another example how feminists can't handle democracy - 4/8/2013 3:47:17 PM   
egern


Posts: 537
Joined: 1/11/2013
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: njlauren


quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59


quote:

ORIGINAL: FelineRanger

My experience has been that feminism is much like many religions in that the the radical elements have hijacked the fundamentally sound principles. I have no problem with women having the same rights, pay, what have you, as men. I do object to laws being written that give women specific and overwhelming advantages over men. Such laws too often are the explicit goals of individuals and organizations who use "feminism" to disguise the fact that they want that overwhelming advantage.



And who are these "radicals" please?


Please name names and their offenses,if any or what make`s them radical?

I don't have any specific names off the top of my head (with some exceptions), but there are general types:

-The feminists who claim that submissive women are recreating patriarchy, and also believe that male dom/fem sub BD/SM is abuse, and that included an ADA in NYC, Linda Fairstein, who railroaded a guy into being sent to jail for sexual abuse, and basically said that e-mail and such that showed that the girl consented was meaningless. They are as dangerous as any religious right type

-The types that claim that women who choose to stay at home and have kids are sell outs, who are recreating old roles and the like

-The types who are still lost in the burn the bra era, and seem to think that women who choose their own fashion statements and the like, are 'accepting patriarchal notions of what a women is'...why? If they want to dress like bull dykes, that is their right, but it is other women's right to do as they wish. They are a classic example of so called revolutionaries, who want to replace one grinding system of authority with another.

-The anti porn feminists, like Catherine Mackinnon and the thankfully late Andrea Dworkin, whose views blended quite nicely with the religious right, they tried passing laws banning porn and shops selling adult merchandise as 'hurting women'. It didn't work in the US, but they passed laws like that in Canada (I recall they were repealed eventually, thank god), and it was a nightmare, erotica was intercepted in the mail, and ironically some radical dykes up there who supported the law found out they couldn't get fiction they wanted, or even get sex toys..see, what they forgot is their 'allies' were only waiting to get such a law passed, and then use it to enforce their morality on others.

-the ones who see male sexisma and patriarchy in everything, and any time someone tries to make valid points about some aspects of affirmative action and such, these types are jumping around claiming it is the old patriarchy coming into play.

-The academic ones with their reducing everything down to male domination of women, or with idiotic things like 'womyn's herstory' and so forth.

-The people behind the Michigan's Womyns music festival, who won't let female identified trans people attend but let male identified female trans people attend (guess that old y chromosome just makes one a rapist)

-The anti sex feminists, like the aforementioned Andrea Dworkin, who said that if a woman goes to bed with a man, it is tantamount to rape (and led to wonderful things like this checklist men were supposed to go through if they wanted to have sex with a women, literally reduced to something akin to the old 'mother may I' game....).....they turn something like sex into patriarchal brutality, which besides being insulting, also trivializes the real issue of sexual assault.

The whole idea of feminism is it is supposed to free women from rigid systems of authority and give them freedom of choice, not about laying in another big code book of 'feminist approved' behavior. It was horrible when women had limited choices in going to school, or what careers they could go into, or that if they had kids, they almost had no choice but to quit work and stay at home, but it is just as stupid and rigid to say that a stay at home mom was selling out or a waste if it was her choice. If a woman happens to like girly things, like heels and dresses and such, that has zip to do wit feminism, yet we hear that is 'selling out'. Feminism is about choice, about having options, it should be able women being allowed to work at what they wish to and to achieve, it isn't about what some dipshit professor of women's studies thinks it should be.

Part of the backlash against feminism also is reaction to something else, and it shows in some of the posts on here, when I hear about 'special rights'. What that often boils down to, ironically, is some men being bitter about the fact that they didn't have to worry about competing against women, or that in the 'good old days' a male would often get promoted by the boss,in part because 'he has a family to support', it was what they called unearned privilege. Women also have been blamed, unfairly, for the decline in manufacturing and other jobs men could almost have for the asking, which is hogwash, but there are a lot of blue collar men who tell these woeful stories how the jobs disappeared because they were being given to women and minorities (when many of them have literally disappeared.....but they don't want to admit that).



Very well said njalauren! Those radical types are a problem for everyone, and they would love to dictate what women should think as well.

One exception though: about history, it is perfectly true that women and children fall out of history do not exist there!

(in reply to njlauren)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: Another example how feminists can't handle democracy - 4/8/2013 3:52:46 PM   
JeffBC


Posts: 5799
Joined: 2/12/2012
From: Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: graceadieu
What always amazes me is when people will say "yeah, I believe that women should have the same rights as men and I like being able to _____ and _____, but I'm not a feminist!". Say what? That's what feminism IS.

Ah yes... the one true way in non-BDSM terms. It's kind of like coming home *laughs*

While you're busy telling me what feminism "is" I think I'll just continue reading the actual shit being done under that banner. I'm big on the whole "actual reality" gig.

_____________________________

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"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

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Profile   Post #: 49
RE: Another example how feminists can't handle democracy - 4/9/2013 4:49:58 AM   
Moonhead


Posts: 16520
Joined: 9/21/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC
While you're busy telling me what feminism "is" I think I'll just continue reading the actual shit being done under that banner. I'm big on the whole "actual reality" gig.

That's actually a problem: feminism tends to get defined as "as anything somebody the media claims is a feminist has ever said", which a lot of the time is more or less the same as "anything any mouthy sort with a cunt says to the media that I don't like".
Really, if Julie Burchill, Camile Paglia and Lady Gaga are all claimed as feminists, then as a description it isn't just redundant, it's effectively meaningless.

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RE: Another example how feminists can't handle democracy - 4/9/2013 5:32:52 AM   
Lucylastic


Posts: 40310
Status: offline 		lets face it, here, and in reality especially, a feminazi, let alone a feminist bitch is any woman that disagrees with an all" knowing" male.

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<) )╯SUCH
/ \

\(•_•)
( (> A NASTY
/ \

(•_•)
<) )> WOMAN
/ \

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RE: Another example how feminists can't handle democracy - 4/9/2013 5:37:56 AM   
Moonhead


Posts: 16520
Joined: 9/21/2009
Status: offline 		Which is sort of my point: small wonder people that stupid can't spot any difference between Valerie Solanos and Germaine Greer...

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I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
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Profile   Post #: 52
RE: Another example how feminists can't handle democracy - 4/9/2013 4:44:38 PM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

lets face it, here, and in reality especially, a feminazi, let alone a feminist bitch is any woman that disagrees with an all" knowing" male.


Put the kettle on babe.



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Profile   Post #: 53
RE: Another example how feminists can't handle democracy - 4/9/2013 6:12:15 PM   
Lucylastic


Posts: 40310
Status: offline 		It makes my ass look fat;)

_____________________________

(•_•)
<) )╯SUCH
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\(•_•)
( (> A NASTY
/ \

(•_•)
<) )> WOMAN
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RE: Another example how feminists can't handle democracy - 4/10/2013 4:14:13 AM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline 		LOL...It took me a minute to get what you meant.

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Profile   Post #: 55
RE: Another example how feminists can't handle democracy - 4/10/2013 4:23:34 AM   
Lucylastic


Posts: 40310
Status: offline 		Lol....its an old standard in our house, along with a chafing element and or something stuck in the spout....my hubby loves his tea. I make a mean tea, he makes a mean coffee....marital harmony;)

_____________________________

(•_•)
<) )╯SUCH
/ \

\(•_•)
( (> A NASTY
/ \

(•_•)
<) )> WOMAN
/ \

Duchess Of Dissent
Dont Hate Love

(in reply to Politesub53)
Profile   Post #: 56
RE: Another example how feminists can't handle democracy - 4/10/2013 5:39:47 AM   
Zonie63


Posts: 2826
Joined: 4/25/2011
From: The Old Pueblo
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: egern

quote:

ORIGINAL: FelineRanger

My experience has been that feminism is much like many religions in that the the radical elements have hijacked the fundamentally sound principles. I have no problem with women having the same rights, pay, what have you, as men. I do object to laws being written that give women specific and overwhelming advantages over men. Such laws too often are the explicit goals of individuals and organizations who use "feminism" to disguise the fact that they want that overwhelming advantage.


What laws are you thinking of? I suspect they are very different from country to country, so could you specify a bit?

Another thing that is often overlooked is that feminism is really most needed in non Western countries, where as a woman you cannot inherit, own land, get killed if the family do not pay the dowry, get stoned if you (may) have had an affair, get shot if you are a girl wanting to learn to read and write to acid thrown in your face, are not allowed to drive a car without permission, get your clitoris cut off and so on and so on.

There is a lot to do still in those countries, and the women who try are goddam heroes doing it with their lives at stake.


I knew a woman who immigrated from Afghanistan, and she had been previously arrested by the Taliban for setting up a school for girls, which was against the law there at the time. I would tend to agree with you that feminism is most needed in non-Western countries, but why would this aspect be often overlooked, as you say?

I sometimes wonder how this will play out in the long run, especially as the world becomes more integrated and people from different cultures are more mobile and freely moving to different areas of the world. The demographics of Western nations are changing. Will feminism be politically strong enough to maintain the idea of gender equality in society? Or will men (and even women) immigrating from male-dominated societies give a lot of new blood to the anti-feminist movement and cause the eventual fall of feminism?


(in reply to egern)
Profile   Post #: 57
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