At what point in pregnancy does a WOMAN'S personhood end?

At what point in pregnancy does a WOMAN'S personhood end? (Full Version)

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farglebargle -> At what point in pregnancy does a WOMAN'S personhood end? (4/5/2013 5:33:06 AM)
Great question. At what point does she become a SLAVE OF THE STATE due to the State's interest in her creation? http://www.truth-out.org/news/item/15484-at-what-point-in-pregnancy-does-a-womans-personhood-end quote: There are also cases like Laura Pemberton, a woman who had a previous cesarean, didn't want to undergo another one if she didn't need to (she wasn't opposed to them), but every hospital in her region said you cannot have a trial labor at our hospital. [They said, in effect:] "If you, as a pregnant woman, want services here, you have to agree to be cut open whether you need to or not." So she began labor at home, hoping she would deliver there without the need of [surgery]. The hospital found out and sent a sheriff to her house, took her into custody, strapped her legs together while she was in active labor, took her to the hospital, where she had no opportunity to talk to a lawyer or have any semblance of due process before they cut her open. They cut her open and forced her to have the surgery. The doctors claimed that having had the previous cesarean if she didn't [have another], she was jeopardizing the baby's life as well as her own. The end of that story is that she subsequently went on to have three more children - two twins - all vaginally, suggesting not only that the doctors are not infallible, but also that relying on them to decide what rights you have is a big mistake.

DesideriScuri -> RE: At what point in pregnancy does a WOMAN'S personhood end? (4/5/2013 8:18:24 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: farglebargle Great question. At what point does she become a SLAVE OF THE STATE due to the State's interest in her creation? http://www.truth-out.org/news/item/15484-at-what-point-in-pregnancy-does-a-womans-personhood-end quote: There are also cases like Laura Pemberton, a woman who had a previous cesarean, didn't want to undergo another one if she didn't need to (she wasn't opposed to them), but every hospital in her region said you cannot have a trial labor at our hospital. [They said, in effect:] "If you, as a pregnant woman, want services here, you have to agree to be cut open whether you need to or not." So she began labor at home, hoping she would deliver there without the need of [surgery]. The hospital found out and sent a sheriff to her house, took her into custody, strapped her legs together while she was in active labor, took her to the hospital, where she had no opportunity to talk to a lawyer or have any semblance of due process before they cut her open. They cut her open and forced her to have the surgery. The doctors claimed that having had the previous cesarean if she didn't [have another], she was jeopardizing the baby's life as well as her own. The end of that story is that she subsequently went on to have three more children - two twins - all vaginally, suggesting not only that the doctors are not infallible, but also that relying on them to decide what rights you have is a big mistake. Arguing with the Doctors now? Apparently, the fetus was past the point of viability, and the Mother was putting the fetus in danger, according to the Doctors. Is that like arguing against science? [8D] That she went on to give birth vaginally has no bearing on the decision. There was no way the Doctors could know she would go on to give birth vaginally later in her life. And, if a previous C-section is accepted as a condition to require C-section births for all ensuing pregnancies, then what are you going to do? And, a physician is legally bound to report cases where they believe child abuse is, has or may be occurring. Don't take this to mean I agree with the State coming in and forcing the woman into a C-section. I don't. It should have been her choice. I'm just attempting to shine a little light on what the thinking might have been.

tazzygirl -> RE: At what point in pregnancy does a WOMAN'S personhood end? (4/5/2013 9:06:53 AM)
There are also cases like Laura Pemberton, a woman who had a previous cesarean, didn't want to undergo another one if she didn't need to (she wasn't opposed to them), but every hospital in her region said you cannot have a trial labor at our hospital. [They said, in effect:] "If you, as a pregnant woman, want services here, you have to agree to be cut open whether you need to or not." So she began labor at home, hoping she would deliver there without the need of [surgery]. The hospital found out and sent a sheriff to her house, took her into custody, strapped her legs together while she was in active labor, took her to the hospital, where she had no opportunity to talk to a lawyer or have any semblance of due process before they cut her open. They cut her open and forced her to have the surgery. The doctors claimed that having had the previous cesarean if she didn't [have another], she was jeopardizing the baby's life as well as her own. The end of that story is that she subsequently went on to have three more children - two twins - all vaginally, suggesting not only that the doctors are not infallible, but also that relying on them to decide what rights you have is a big mistake. There are so many things wrong with this case. Its not as black and white as it appears. 1... do we even know why she had the previous c-section? I cant find a reason why doing a search. 2.... she was in labor, went to the hospital for IV fluids and expected to be allowed to be discharged back home... in labor. 3... VBAC's dont always work. Delivering at home was indeed a risk to the fetus and to the mother. 4... Did the hospitals she approached have a staff to cover an emergency c-section at a moment's notice? This requires the whole OR team to be in house. "Decision to incision" time is 30 minutes. Meaning from the time the decision is made to do a c-section, it has to start in 30 minutes. Its not a long time to get a staff in house to do the procedure. There are so many variables that are unknown to simply say the state was wrong.

FunCouple5280 -> RE: At what point in pregnancy does a WOMAN'S personhood end? (4/5/2013 9:51:50 AM)
Fargle, I really just want to know were you stand on some things. I am not making an argument with this post. However, your recent string of posts regarding abortion seem to be focused on incredible radical elements of the debate. I already assume you believe in the legality of abortion. However, you feel it sould also be completely covered by the state? Do you believe there is a cut off point at which an abortion should cease to be legal? Once that point is crossed, do women have any obligation to the child/fetus inside? Does a child/fetus have any rights prior to its expulsion from the uterous? At what point in the continuum of human life does one attain all his/her rights in your mind? I feel, if I knew where you stood exactly, I could engage more in the conversations you start.

farglebargle -> RE: At what point in pregnancy does a WOMAN'S personhood end? (4/5/2013 11:27:26 AM)
" Do you believe there is a cut off point at which an abortion should cease to be legal? " Well, I'll go with the US Supreme Court and say "Viability". Other than that? ON DEMAND AND WITHOUT RESTRICTION. And given the incredible attempts to enslave women to some crazy religious ideology, I don't think pushing the other direction is unwarranted. I have a copy of instructions for a DIY D&C which any competent med-tech can handle. Would you like one for your own reference?

Kirata -> RE: At what point in pregnancy does a WOMAN'S personhood end? (4/5/2013 12:00:08 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: farglebargle Great question. At what point does she become a SLAVE OF THE STATE due to the State's interest in her creation? Pushing insane claims and playing the "slavery" card is about as cheap as it gets. No one, anywhere, has ever said that a woman's personhood ends at any point in a pregnancy. The issue is, at what point should the state recognize the situation as one in which there are two persons. And every contribution you have ever made to the subject has consisted of trying to shove your religious nuttery down people's throats about the "soul" entering the body at quickening. Get yourself a fucking TV show. K.

tazzygirl -> RE: At what point in pregnancy does a WOMAN'S personhood end? (4/5/2013 12:24:57 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: farglebargle " Do you believe there is a cut off point at which an abortion should cease to be legal? " Well, I'll go with the US Supreme Court and say "Viability". Other than that? ON DEMAND AND WITHOUT RESTRICTION. And given the incredible attempts to enslave women to some crazy religious ideology, I don't think pushing the other direction is unwarranted. I have a copy of instructions for a DIY D&C which any competent med-tech can handle. Would you like one for your own reference? Ya know, I want to see that. Mail it to me here please. Beyond that, this case wasnt about viability. It was about the state recognizing the danger of delivering at home, unattended, with a VBAC.

LafayetteLady -> RE: At what point in pregnancy does a WOMAN'S personhood end? (4/5/2013 12:46:52 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl There are also cases like Laura Pemberton, a woman who had a previous cesarean, didn't want to undergo another one if she didn't need to (she wasn't opposed to them), but every hospital in her region said you cannot have a trial labor at our hospital. [They said, in effect:] "If you, as a pregnant woman, want services here, you have to agree to be cut open whether you need to or not." So she began labor at home, hoping she would deliver there without the need of [surgery]. The hospital found out and sent a sheriff to her house, took her into custody, strapped her legs together while she was in active labor, took her to the hospital, where she had no opportunity to talk to a lawyer or have any semblance of due process before they cut her open. They cut her open and forced her to have the surgery. The doctors claimed that having had the previous cesarean if she didn't [have another], she was jeopardizing the baby's life as well as her own. The end of that story is that she subsequently went on to have three more children - two twins - all vaginally, suggesting not only that the doctors are not infallible, but also that relying on them to decide what rights you have is a big mistake. There are so many things wrong with this case. Its not as black and white as it appears. 1... do we even know why she had the previous c-section? I cant find a reason why doing a search. 2.... she was in labor, went to the hospital for IV fluids and expected to be allowed to be discharged back home... in labor. 3... VBAC's dont always work. Delivering at home was indeed a risk to the fetus and to the mother. 4... Did the hospitals she approached have a staff to cover an emergency c-section at a moment's notice? This requires the whole OR team to be in house. "Decision to incision" time is 30 minutes. Meaning from the time the decision is made to do a c-section, it has to start in 30 minutes. Its not a long time to get a staff in house to do the procedure. There are so many variables that are unknown to simply say the state was wrong. Of course you can't find any of that information. It wouldn't fall in line with their agenda.

FunCouple5280 -> RE: At what point in pregnancy does a WOMAN'S personhood end? (4/5/2013 12:51:17 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: farglebargle " Do you believe there is a cut off point at which an abortion should cease to be legal? " Well, I'll go with the US Supreme Court and say "Viability". Other than that? ON DEMAND AND WITHOUT RESTRICTION. And given the incredible attempts to enslave women to some crazy religious ideology, I don't think pushing the other direction is unwarranted. I have a copy of instructions for a DIY D&C which any competent med-tech can handle. Would you like one for your own reference? Great, viability. But you are defering to SCOTUS. I asked your opinion as if you were world czar and could make any rule that suites your fancy. Yet: you have not answered: quote: Once that point is crossed, do women have any obligation to the child/fetus inside? Does a child/fetus have any rights prior to its expulsion from the uterous? At what point in the continuum of human life does one attain all his/her rights in your mind? You can talk about enslavement all you want. But once the child/fetus begins to attains rights, parents naturally forfeit the right to act on their absolute fancy once they are a guardian of that life, until that guardianship has expired or been transfered. I want to know when you think a person attains the right to life??? It is sounding like you might even feel that infanticide is fair practice, as an infant is a burden to a parent, and therefor enslaves them in its care. Is that where your opinion ultimately lies?

muhly22222 -> RE: At what point in pregnancy does a WOMAN'S personhood end? (4/5/2013 1:46:44 PM)
quote: ON DEMAND AND WITHOUT RESTRICTION Completely without restriction? I mean, I would support a restriction that the procedure be performed by a licensed doctor. And that it be done in a place that is hygienically appropriate for surgical operations. And that the woman be given information on any risks that are associated with the procedure in her case. And that any attendants be licensed/certified in whatever role they are engaging in. Of course, those are standard restrictions on any medical procedure. I'm only asking to clarify.

farglebargle -> RE: At what point in pregnancy does a WOMAN'S personhood end? (4/5/2013 1:54:13 PM)
http://web.archive.org/web/20060226214705/http://mollysavestheday.blogspot.com/2006/02/for-women-of-south-dakota-abortion.html

farglebargle -> RE: At what point in pregnancy does a WOMAN'S personhood end? (4/5/2013 1:56:27 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: muhly22222 quote: ON DEMAND AND WITHOUT RESTRICTION Completely without restriction? I mean, I would support a restriction that the procedure be performed by a licensed doctor. And that it be done in a place that is hygienically appropriate for surgical operations. And that the woman be given information on any risks that are associated with the procedure in her case. And that any attendants be licensed/certified in whatever role they are engaging in. Of course, those are standard restrictions on any medical procedure. I'm only asking to clarify. As long as they're pushing for restrictions, I'm pushing the other direction. All this 'concern for the mother' is bullshit anyway, since early-term abortion is SAFER than bring babies to term, if it was about the mother's health, there wouldn't be any argument.

tazzygirl -> RE: At what point in pregnancy does a WOMAN'S personhood end? (4/5/2013 2:35:36 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: farglebargle http://web.archive.org/web/20060226214705/http://mollysavestheday.blogspot.com/2006/02/for-women-of-south-dakota-abortion.html I read that. I am competent in a woman's anatomy. I am comfortable with all those instruments. I would never attempt to perform an abotion under those conditions. This is from someone who has NO medical training at all. She observed an abortion, interviewed providers and decided to write up the "advice" http://articles.latimes.com/2006/mar/15/entertainment/et-blog15 You realize she was only 21 when she wrote that? At her "Molly Saves the Day" Web log, the 21-year-old Florida resident uses the pseudonym Molly Blythe. Given the volatility of the abortion debate, she requested that her real name and city of residence not be used in this story. In an interview, the blogger said South Dakota's ban on abortion — even in cases of rape and incest — prompted her post, "For the Women of South Dakota: An Abortion Manual." The blogger, who has no medical background, said she has been compiling instructions for several years. http://seattletimes.com/html/nationworld/2002863579_abortion14.html The article interviews a woman who used to perform "illegal" abortions before Roe. Another group was the Jane movement of the Chicago Women's Liberation Union. From 1969-73, about 125 members counseled and educated women on abortion, learned to perform the procedure and ran clandestine surgical clinics in apartments. Workers went by the name Jane. One was Laura Kaplan, who wrote the 1996 book "The Story of Jane: The Legendary Underground Feminist Abortion Service." "In the pre-Roe era there was massive, massive, massive civil disobedience," Kaplan said. "Breaking this law was something people did regularly, all the time." However, Kaplan cautioned, "I don't think you can learn to do abortions in a correspondence course. Our process in Jane was a very long and careful apprenticeship. It's a fairly straightforward procedure, but there are all kinds of caveats." And to pass this around as a careless attempt to scare people into your point of view is dangerous. Its not a procedure that can be read and performed. And the cost... wow... the "One set of uterine curettes" is 80 bucks on ebay alone.

fucktoyprincess -> RE: At what point in pregnancy does a WOMAN'S personhood end? (4/5/2013 3:54:29 PM)
According to conservatives BEFORE she even conceives [&:]

FunCouple5280 -> RE: At what point in pregnancy does a WOMAN'S personhood end? (4/5/2013 3:56:34 PM)
I think you missed the point of his ranting

fucktoyprincess -> RE: At what point in pregnancy does a WOMAN'S personhood end? (4/5/2013 4:19:41 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FunCouple5280 I think you missed the point of his ranting My response was intended as partly tongue-in-cheek. The point being that the restrictions on birth control that conservatives advocate would imply that conservatives don't even think women have the right to personhood BEFORE they conceive. So the idea that conservatives would try to add embryos and fetuses to the definition of personhood is not at all that surprising. But while it is not surprising it is equally as ridiculous in my mind, as saying a woman shouldn't have control over her eggs. Hope that clarifies.

FunCouple5280 -> RE: At what point in pregnancy does a WOMAN'S personhood end? (4/5/2013 4:58:20 PM)
No I get that, it just distracts from his rant that the doctors did something medically incorrect

tweakabelle -> RE: At what point in pregnancy does a WOMAN'S personhood end? (4/5/2013 11:24:00 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FunCouple5280 No I get that, it just distracts from his rant that the doctors did something medically incorrect That's hardly anything new or revolutionary. Doctors do medically incorrect things all the time. My view on abortions is that the decision to abort or to carry, in the final analysis, can only be taken by the person who has to live with the consequences ie the woman herself. Anything else in this debate is only advice, guidelines, beliefs etc. There should be no legal or social impediments to any option that woman chooses.

Aylee -> RE: At what point in pregnancy does a WOMAN'S personhood end? (4/6/2013 5:58:38 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl There are so many things wrong with this case. Its not as black and white as it appears. 1... do we even know why she had the previous c-section? I cant find a reason why doing a search. 2.... she was in labor, went to the hospital for IV fluids and expected to be allowed to be discharged back home... in labor. 3... VBAC's dont always work. Delivering at home was indeed a risk to the fetus and to the mother. 4... Did the hospitals she approached have a staff to cover an emergency c-section at a moment's notice? This requires the whole OR team to be in house. "Decision to incision" time is 30 minutes. Meaning from the time the decision is made to do a c-section, it has to start in 30 minutes. Its not a long time to get a staff in house to do the procedure. There are so many variables that are unknown to simply say the state was wrong. This that I have bolded is why many hospitals do NOT do VBACs. And yeah. . . I know. . . as a pregnant woman you talk to your OBGYN and make out your "labor and delivery plan." That is supposed to be how things happen. Frankly, it just does not always work out that way. I know for my last kiddo, I was not happy about ANY of it. That was NOT the way I wanted it to go. Shit happens. Something else to think about. . . if the Sheriff came by and you were suturing up a gash on your leg they would more than likely tie you up and get you to an ER as well. By and large, we just do not do self-medical procedures anymore in the US.

thishereboi -> RE: At what point in pregnancy does a WOMAN'S personhood end? (4/6/2013 6:03:45 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess According to conservatives BEFORE she even conceives [&:] And which conservatives would that be princess? All of them? Some of them? And did they send you a notice telling you how they think or did you read their minds? (if it's the latter, can you come up with winning lottery numbers also cause that could be helpful) Inquiring minds want to know. I would point out that there are a whole shit load of liberals who are against abortion, but I am not sure you could handle that, so maybe I shouldn't.

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