RE: just a mom needing advice

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DarkSteven -> RE: just a mom needing advice (4/8/2013 7:17:48 PM)
Basically, when you gave him access to your child, he was on probation. He screwed it up. Revoke probation. No contact for at least a year. Apologize to your daughter that the idiot was bad to her. I think you should require him to pay for some of the counseling before he can even talk about getting access to her again. He caused the mess, let him help fix it.

LafayetteLady -> RE: just a mom needing advice (4/8/2013 7:35:29 PM)
Like it or not, a parent doesn't have the right to put the other parent on "probation" with visitation. Of course in the OPs' case, there is no formal visitation agreement, but even if there was, courts rarely force a child to see a parent, especially in a case like this. Trying to force him to pay for counseling, when he is already far behind in child support would be opening a can of worms she really doesn't need to open. It would be detrimental to both her and her child. It's very easy to talk about what you would "force" someone to do when it isn't you, and you lack the knowledge of the realities from the legal standpoint.

Rasciallymisty -> RE: just a mom needing advice (4/8/2013 8:02:51 PM)
You have gotten some really good advice here. We have gone through this with my grandson. We have it so that if his father wants to see him its with supervised visits only. Like your daughters dad he has been in and out of jail but had also threatened that if he ever had my grandson alone he would skip state. Well he was out on probation he did leave state one of the times. So we went to court and the Judge gave him supervised visitation only. Maybe something like that would work for you as well. I wish the best of luck to you and your daughter.

MalcolmNathaniel -> RE: just a mom needing advice (4/8/2013 8:16:27 PM)
points out the elephant in the room Her reaction, especially if this isn't a one time thing, points to child abuse and/or pedophilia. I have NO evidence of that. It is just a gut feeling. Nothing I just said is admissible in a court of law. I am a geek; we are not usually known for out capability to read people. I have no training as a therapist, psycho-analyst, psychologist, psychiatrist or any other type of psycho-babbler. But, when I actually pay attention to people, my gut feelings are usually dead-on.

LafayetteLady -> RE: just a mom needing advice (4/8/2013 8:23:11 PM)
I hear what you are saying, but his reaction (not trying to bribe her) and her reaction (flat out anger) tend to go against that. Also given the relationship the OP and her daughter have, I don't doubt she would have told her.

theshytype -> RE: just a mom needing advice (4/8/2013 8:41:48 PM)
Wow, Breagha, I'm so sorry for what your daughter and you have gone through. I don't have much advice to offer. I suppose if it were me, I'd listen to my daughter and not force visitation. I would maybe seek advice or research. I don't know everything involved when it comes to a possible abandonment issue and custody disputes. I doubt he'll fight for custody, but I don't know him. Just like you're afraid of the costs, I'm sure he will be also. It sounds like you have done a wonderful job talking to her about it and, at this point, is the most important thing you can do for her IMO.

Moonlightmaddnes -> RE: just a mom needing advice (4/8/2013 9:15:22 PM)
Hell no. Call some custody lawyers if you are nervous but no way would I allow someone as toxic as that sperm donor around my child. He treated her like that due to illness, imagine how cruel he will be when she chooses her friends over him like every kid will eventually do. I know a little of what it is like. My father was a mean ass drunk that my mother finally got rid of. She almost took him back and he showed up with a DVD player when they were brand new on the market for me as well as a bunch of other gifts. I was 11 or so at this time and I remember my mom crying on the back porch telling me she couldn't do it. He had already started raising his voice to her and trying to tell her she could not see her friends. The next day she kicked him out and he took everything back that he gave me. I was mad and hurt but I got over it and I like your daughter never wanted anything to do with him again, he had shown his true colors. I never saw him again and I do not regret it at all.

VoluptuousVenus -> RE: just a mom needing advice (4/8/2013 9:59:43 PM)
I have an ex who is manipulative, charismatic, and who can conjure up "witnesses" to histories that never happened. If he thought it would benefit him, he'd find some way to make it look as though I've been a horrible and abusive monster, that all of his mistakes were a result of me being manipulative, and that my child has been brainwashed. So my advice is to follow all of the advice you've received so far, but also to go the extra mile. I'd like to urge you to start recording any and every conversation with him (whether it's you or your child). Those little recorders people use for college lectures are perfect for this. If he's calling a land line that doesn't have speaker phone, get a little microphone that will record the sound coming from the ear piece. Make sure to say the date and time of each call. Say his name when you speak to him so you have proof it really is him. If he's coming over, have a hidden camera. His every word and action should be recorded. Have the audio recorder going, too, and keep it discreetly on your body. A small microphone can be easily hidden by a belt. If, after interacting with him, your child is upset, record a conversation with her that shows how she's feeling and what she's thinking. Overly protective and paranoid? Maybe... but I'd rather have too much evidence in your favor than not enough.

LafayetteLady -> RE: just a mom needing advice (4/9/2013 12:05:17 AM)
I already told her about recording her conversations with him. Recording conversations between him and the child are a violation of wire tap laws. While she would like get a slap on the wrist and told to stop, it wouldn't help her case. Recording conversations she has with the child after the girl speaks with her father, would be viewed as manipulative. So both things are really bad advice. Given that this man ignored the child for the first 3 years of her life, and then was incarcerated or prohibited by law from seeing her for 3 of the next 5 years, the odds of him proving she is a bad parent and he is a good parent are pretty close to nil. Credibility goes far, and someone with a history of violence, drugs and incarcerations simply has no credibility. Wire tap laws vary from state to state. While I certainly don't know the wire tap laws for all states, NY and NJ allow a conversation to be recorded as long as ONE party is aware of the conversation. In PA, both parties must be made aware. At no time is it considered appropriate for either parent to record conversations the other parent has with the common child. Also, in the circumstances where the party must be made aware, if they "refuse" to consent but continue talking, they will have been considered to consent.

Muttling -> RE: just a mom needing advice (4/9/2013 3:50:37 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady Recording conversations between him and the child are a violation of wire tap laws. That is incorrect. Last year, a South Carolina Supreme Court ruling upheld a parent's right to consent to conversations being recorded on behalf of their child without the child knowing it given the parent acts in good faith. While this ruling doesn't automatically extend to the other 36 states which allow recording when only 1 party consents, it's quite likely that they would have a similar finding. Here's a link to a report on the ruling.... http://www.gregoryforman.com/blog/2012/07/supreme-court-approves-parents-taping-of-childs-telephone-conversation/

DarkSteven -> RE: just a mom needing advice (4/9/2013 4:26:58 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady Like it or not, a parent doesn't have the right to put the other parent on "probation" with visitation. Of course in the OPs' case, there is no formal visitation agreement, but even if there was, courts rarely force a child to see a parent, especially in a case like this. Trying to force him to pay for counseling, when he is already far behind in child support would be opening a can of worms she really doesn't need to open. It would be detrimental to both her and her child. It's very easy to talk about what you would "force" someone to do when it isn't you, and you lack the knowledge of the realities from the legal standpoint. She doesn't even have to allow any visitation whatsoever. She can and needs to let him know that he loses the privilege to see his daughter if he hurts her, which he's done. I'm not referring to any court-ordered legal situation, but rather the situation in which Breagha has full control of whether her daughter sees him. If he can't afford to fix the problems he made, then no seeing his daughter. Breagha's not wealthy, and he caused a financial hardship to her. If he can't pay, that's it - no visitation. Actually, upon rereading, I'd recommend that Breagha simply cut off all contact whatsoever. The guy's bad news, and her daughter doesn't like him. She feels no need to stay in touch, and he forfeited his right to see her by staying out of her life for years.

LafayetteLady -> RE: just a mom needing advice (4/9/2013 4:37:21 AM)
Because that case was based on sexual abuse, I don't think the other states will apply it outside of those circumstances. Family court is a huge mess of "he said/she said," and they don't really like any recorded conversations, since they foolishly expect the parents to always act in the best interest of the child and be civil to each other (although if they could, they wouldn't be in court to begin with). There are circumstances, however, where recorded conversations between the parents become vital to prove who really did say what. I know of a case where one parent filed ex parte claiming that the other parent absconded to parts unknown with the 4 year old child. The reality was that the child was taken on a vacation, and the non-custodial parent was made aware of that fact, including when they were leaving, and when they would be returning. That conversation was recorded, and the recording was used to prove the non-custodial was intentionally fabricating information to the court. In the OP's case, her daughter does not wish to speak with the father, and the father admitted to the mother he said the hateful things. None of which was recorded. Future recordings would serve as no more than "insurance" that if the father tried to manipulate the situation and claim he was doing A, B, and C when he was actually doing X, Y and Z. In most circumstances, they are not necessary. At the age of 8, an in camera testimony from the child would not be difficult to achieve.

OsideGirl -> RE: just a mom needing advice (4/9/2013 8:23:03 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady I hear what you are saying, but his reaction (not trying to bribe her) and her reaction (flat out anger) tend to go against that. Also given the relationship the OP and her daughter have, I don't doubt she would have told her. I agree with this assessment. I would say that it probably, in part, has to do with his volatility. If he just randomly behaves the way he did on the phone, even if not directed at her, it would have an impact. It could be a number of things, but I do agree that it doesn't have bribery/guilt pattern that is usually evident during abuse.

Darkfeather -> RE: just a mom needing advice (4/9/2013 12:30:10 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: breagha hi all! i am looking for a little bit of advice... or maybe some if i were you i would ____ my daughter's father has kind of fucked up ( again ) in a big way. Brief back story is : we were dating, broke up, found out i was pregnant after the fact. i told him i didn't want anything from him and he told me he didn't want to be involved. Fast forward 3 years later he decided he wanted to meet my daughter. After discussing this with my parents and sister, i agreed to them meeting. My child will be 8 in june. between the ages of 3 and 8 he's spent 2 years in prison ( two separate occasions ) and a year away from her because it was a violation of parole to contact me. Last April we instated an every other weekend visitation schedule. 3 weeks later was his most recent start of jail time. November he was released and we started visits again in December. Fast forward to Easter morning - Daughter was supposed to spend the night with him Easter night because her brother was visiting at that time as well. She decided she didn't want to ( to the point that she was sick to her stomach and couldn't sleep over it ) so she told him so. When she did he said " fine goodbye" and hung up. Called back and told her that she could stay away from him and his family forever. This obviously upset her. Three nights ago he called me ( i didn't answer ) and stated he wanted to speak to HIS daughter. She refuses to call him or acknowledge him because she is angry and sad that he treated her the way he did. my question to everyone is... should i attempt to help her mend the rift between them? or should i just leave it alone? we don't have any legal custody in place, she has always lived with me. i am afraid that if i don't push her to contact him that there will be a huge court battle that i can't afford to fight and win. I had a father who was "an asshole". Trust me, we kids are not stupid when it comes to recognizing this fact. He too left when I was around 6, and even on his deathbed, we never resolved. Why, because I knew he was an asshole. Have confidence in your daughter, tell her the truth, be honest with her about your feelings on the matter. You are a good mother, and raised her right, correct? She will make the right decisions. As for custody, if she honestly doesn't want to go with him, no court will force her.

mnottertail -> RE: just a mom needing advice (4/9/2013 12:32:29 PM)
And don't forget the dad was hurt, even if an asshole. I am not saying it should count for anything over 1% of the scope of the issue, but ...........

hlen5 -> RE: just a mom needing advice (4/9/2013 12:41:01 PM)
I would only tell him he can't see her anymore if he initiates contact. Contraband looks a lot more attractive. Giving the emotional maturity he has displayed so far, I'm sure he was hurt by her refusal. Hopefully that will take care of him wanting to see her until she is mature enough to see him as he really is. In the best of all worlds, maybe not seeing her will give him the impetus to grow up and get responsible.

LafayetteLady -> RE: just a mom needing advice (4/9/2013 4:39:53 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DarkSteven quote: ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady Like it or not, a parent doesn't have the right to put the other parent on "probation" with visitation. Of course in the OPs' case, there is no formal visitation agreement, but even if there was, courts rarely force a child to see a parent, especially in a case like this. Trying to force him to pay for counseling, when he is already far behind in child support would be opening a can of worms she really doesn't need to open. It would be detrimental to both her and her child. It's very easy to talk about what you would "force" someone to do when it isn't you, and you lack the knowledge of the realities from the legal standpoint. She doesn't even have to allow any visitation whatsoever. She can and needs to let him know that he loses the privilege to see his daughter if he hurts her, which he's done. I'm not referring to any court-ordered legal situation, but rather the situation in which Breagha has full control of whether her daughter sees him. If he can't afford to fix the problems he made, then no seeing his daughter. Breagha's not wealthy, and he caused a financial hardship to her. If he can't pay, that's it - no visitation. Actually, upon rereading, I'd recommend that Breagha simply cut off all contact whatsoever. The guy's bad news, and her daughter doesn't like him. She feels no need to stay in touch, and he forfeited his right to see her by staying out of her life for years. Wonderful idea. Then he decides to take it to court, and how do you think that goes? Do you think the court says breagha has all this legal right? Here's a clue, she doesn't. In fact, courts very much frown on a custodial parent denying visitation based on non-payment of anything. Visitation and support are NOT connected. It isn't that everyone wouldn't think that it is a wonderful idea, it is more that the courts don't view it the same way. So, please, if you are going to attempt to give advice, know what the legal viewpoint is, so you don't advise her to do something that could get her in trouble. It's very irresponsible. ETA: We don't "own" our children, we are simply guardians of them. Even when they only have one guardian, they typically have two parents. Negating the other parent, regardless of their actions is very rarely a good idea, and the OP's situation is no different. She doesn't need to force her daughter to talk to her father, nor should she. But every time he calls, yes, she should let her daughter know and if she doesn't want to talk, she won't, if she does, she will. The concept that eliminating a parent from a child's life is in "their best interest" serves one purpose, and that purpose has little to do with the child. Regardless of what he has done, breagha (a very smart young lady) doesn't need to bad mouth him, and she doesn't make excuses for him either. She doesn't lead her daughter one way or the other, and THAT is the right decision. She needs to make sure she has some documentation should litigation occur, but that litigation is unlikely. If she, as suggested, eliminates father from child's life, child may not be all that happy about it later. If child makes decision (which is happening), then the child will not later blame the parent, which DOES happen, all the time.

DesFIP -> RE: just a mom needing advice (4/9/2013 7:46:42 PM)
I wouldn't rule out some sexual improprieties. And he could well have threatened the child if she told anything to her mother. Which is why I specifically suggested a therapist who uses play. Sometimes kids will feel more comfortable using dolls to illustrate what happened instead of talking about it. And yes, make sure the therapist is willing to testify in court if necessary. However I doubt this guy will go to the effort of hiring a lawyer to get custody and visitations. But in NY children under 12 don't get much credence from the judge as to what they want to do.

LookieNoNookie -> RE: just a mom needing advice (4/9/2013 7:48:17 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: breagha hi all! i am looking for a little bit of advice... or maybe some if i were you i would ____ my daughter's father has kind of fucked up ( again ) in a big way. Brief back story is : we were dating, broke up, found out i was pregnant after the fact. i told him i didn't want anything from him and he told me he didn't want to be involved. Fast forward 3 years later he decided he wanted to meet my daughter. After discussing this with my parents and sister, i agreed to them meeting. My child will be 8 in june. between the ages of 3 and 8 he's spent 2 years in prison ( two separate occasions ) and a year away from her because it was a violation of parole to contact me. Last April we instated an every other weekend visitation schedule. 3 weeks later was his most recent start of jail time. November he was released and we started visits again in December. Fast forward to Easter morning - Daughter was supposed to spend the night with him Easter night because her brother was visiting at that time as well. She decided she didn't want to ( to the point that she was sick to her stomach and couldn't sleep over it ) so she told him so. When she did he said " fine goodbye" and hung up. Called back and told her that she could stay away from him and his family forever. This obviously upset her. Three nights ago he called me ( i didn't answer ) and stated he wanted to speak to HIS daughter. She refuses to call him or acknowledge him because she is angry and sad that he treated her the way he did. my question to everyone is... should i attempt to help her mend the rift between them? or should i just leave it alone? we don't have any legal custody in place, she has always lived with me. i am afraid that if i don't push her to contact him that there will be a huge court battle that i can't afford to fight and win. First off, you didn't state what he was convicted for....secondly, I'm not even qualified as a parent (since I met my son when he was 31) but I would say this....if you're in this guys life (via your daughter) because you were stoooopit, accept that and keep him away because...birds of a feather and all that. Secondly, you can displace DNA by being a great Mom. His DNA has already proven itself. Be a great Mom. Anything that affects that as the prime directive....asked and answered.

LafayetteLady -> RE: just a mom needing advice (4/9/2013 11:51:48 PM)
Honestly, I would rule it out. Completely. His behavior simply doesn't fit any of the behaviors of a pedophile. So taking the child to a therapist of the kind that you suggest is likely going to be more harmful. The guy acted like an immature asshole when his daughter said she didn't want to go see him. So now the little girl is angry and won't talk to him. Natural consequences. Something most of us learn at breagha's daughter's age, but apparently this father hasn't figured out yet. So breagha's best course of action is to be honest, but not judgmental (as in no badmouthing) about the father to the daughter, keep the already very open lines of communication between mother and child that way, and if father calls, let the child know, but don't force the issue. The idea here is to make life easier for the child. Letting the child take the lead (as in deciding whether to speak to him or see him) is the best way to handle this.

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