RE: Guns and Suicide

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DesFIP -> RE: Guns and Suicide (4/10/2013 7:46:39 AM)
1 in 12 teens have attempted this. It's the third highest cause of death in adolescents after accidents and homicide. And when you have had a suicide in your family, you are then at higher risk of ending your own life. Except in extremely rare cases, it's a permanent answer for a temporary problem. Even when people are dying of cancer, they don't want to suicide, they just want the pain to stop. And the highest rates happen during times of changing hormones, adolescence and middle age. Which I can personally attest to as that's when my episodes of suicidal ideation occurred.

Focus50 -> RE: Guns and Suicide (4/10/2013 12:01:00 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri How do you reconcile th1s statement: quote: For memory from someone else's links, gun shot suicides in the US were also about 2/3rds of the total - or similar ratio to the Aus stats. But the BIG difference is the actual totals. US has 15 times our population but your 20,000ish gun shot suicides is exponentially more than 15 times our 160ish total with this: quote: Up to a point, I agree that suicide by gun isn't really an issue about guns. Seems to be self-explanatory, IMO. US has a gun culture problem. As I said, if it's easier for Americans to access guns, then it's more likely your suicide-by-gun totals will be greater per capita - as they are. Thing is, in the US, that availability of guns means all manner of gun death totals are exponentially higher than other western countries. Re the 2nd quoted statement, suicide-by-gun is about suicide. Someone determines to kill themself; THAT's the issue - means is incidental. Intentionally killing yourself because you happened to have a gun handy is "cart before the horse" logic. quote: To be honest, including suicides by firearm in "gun violence" is technically true, but it's also misleading. What is being said is that suicide by gun is worse than suicide by any other means. Do gun violence stats include people shot by the police? Dunno if it's "worse" but that means tends to polarise public opinion more. And I'm more baffled as to why you'd think a police shooting is exempt from gun stats. They're compiled under "cause of death", not by who pulled the trigger. Focus.

DesideriScuri -> RE: Guns and Suicide (4/10/2013 12:38:56 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Focus50 quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri How do you reconcile th1s statement: quote: For memory from someone else's links, gun shot suicides in the US were also about 2/3rds of the total - or similar ratio to the Aus stats. But the BIG difference is the actual totals. US has 15 times our population but your 20,000ish gun shot suicides is exponentially more than 15 times our 160ish total with this: quote: Up to a point, I agree that suicide by gun isn't really an issue about guns. Seems to be self-explanatory, IMO. US has a gun culture problem. As I said, if it's easier for Americans to access guns, then it's more likely your suicide-by-gun totals will be greater per capita - as they are. Thing is, in the US, that availability of guns means all manner of gun death totals are exponentially higher than other western countries. Re the 2nd quoted statement, suicide-by-gun is about suicide. Someone determines to kill themself; THAT's the issue - means is incidental. Intentionally killing yourself because you happened to have a gun handy is "cart before the horse" logic. Those are both your quotes, Focus. You argue that suicide by gun should still be included, but then say that the means to the suicide isn't what suicide deaths are about? quote: quote: To be honest, including suicides by firearm in "gun violence" is technically true, but it's also misleading. What is being said is that suicide by gun is worse than suicide by any other means. Do gun violence stats include people shot by the police? Dunno if it's "worse" but that means tends to polarise public opinion more. And I'm more baffled as to why you'd think a police shooting is exempt from gun stats. They're compiled under "cause of death", not by who pulled the trigger.Focus. I honestly don't know if police shootings are included in gun violence stats, as they are not the same as a perp pulling the trigger. That could be what fills up the "Other" category, though.

kdsub -> RE: Guns and Suicide (4/10/2013 12:46:56 PM)
Just wondering...how do you suffocate yourself? If they are talking hanging then I find it hard to believe women prefer it. Butch

DesideriScuri -> RE: Guns and Suicide (4/10/2013 12:53:52 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub Just wondering...how do you suffocate yourself? If they are talking hanging then I find it hard to believe women prefer it. Butch Auto-erotic asphyxiation is one way.

OsideGirl -> RE: Guns and Suicide (4/10/2013 4:07:49 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub Just wondering...how do you suffocate yourself? If they are talking hanging then I find it hard to believe women prefer it. Butch Drugs, alcohol and a plastic bag. Known as a suicide kit.

FunCouple5280 -> RE: Guns and Suicide (4/10/2013 5:51:12 PM)
Sorry focus, but whether or not guns are available doesn't impact the rate of suicide. Numerous studies both in the US and abroad on the impact of gun laws and suicide show no significant change in the rate of suicide. If guns are available, it is the method of choice because of its speed and reliability in getting the job done. But, if they aren't available, it just doesn't change one's mind, just the method of action.

tj444 -> RE: Guns and Suicide (4/10/2013 6:20:57 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DesFIP Even when people are dying of cancer, they don't want to suicide, they just want the pain to stop. I read a study about suicide and pain.. the conclusion was that people would not consider suicide if they could control the pain meds themselves.. so if they need more that they could give themselves more.. of course that is not the way it is for those that are in pain or dying cuz its the doctors that control the pain meds and the doctors dont want to be sued by the family if the patient was given too much.. so instead patients end up in more pain..

Aylee -> RE: Guns and Suicide (4/10/2013 6:31:54 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub Just wondering...how do you suffocate yourself? If they are talking hanging then I find it hard to believe women prefer it. Butch Get drunk and pass out face down on an unmade waterbed.

LookieNoNookie -> RE: Guns and Suicide (4/10/2013 7:51:06 PM)
No.....horribly awful, maybe....still awful....never.

Powergamz1 -> RE: Guns and Suicide (4/10/2013 9:15:51 PM)
"...I honestly don't know if police shootings are included in gun violence stats" The oft cited Brady campaign 'X times more likely to be used against an acquaintance or family member' study included all cases where the person who was shot by the police had a record, as 'known to the shooter'.

SadistDave -> RE: Guns and Suicide (4/10/2013 9:33:37 PM)
I'm pro-death, so I struggle to find the down side in suicide. If a person is serious enough about not wanting to live that they try to commit suicide, it's only polite to let them. Generally speaking, prospective suicides have shitty lives, mental problems, have agonized for endless hours over social and religious concerns, etc. They really have gone through a lot of effort arriving at the decision to end it all. They deserve to succeed! If your life (not yours personally, just a generic someone...) sucks so bad that suicide is an option, highball! We should promote suicide and advertise it as the ultimate expression of personal choice. Whether it's your health, your financial situation, or maybe you are just too much of a pussy to handle someone calling you names at school; whatever your reason, if you can't contribute to the society in which you live, or you can't abide living in the society in which you live, then by all means.... you should be able to go somewhere and snuff it. PBS should be required to run instructional PSAs for suicide like "Remember kids, it's "Up the street, not across the road"" or maybe "Smoking kills in 40 years. Draino kills in 40 seconds." Emily Autumn could do the music for them... -SD-

Aylee -> RE: Guns and Suicide (4/10/2013 9:43:34 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SadistDave I'm pro-death, so I struggle to find the down side in suicide. If a person is serious enough about not wanting to live that they try to commit suicide, it's only polite to let them. Generally speaking, prospective suicides have shitty lives, mental problems, have agonized for endless hours over social and religious concerns, etc. They really have gone through a lot of effort arriving at the decision to end it all. They deserve to succeed! If your life (not yours personally, just a generic someone...) sucks so bad that suicide is an option, highball! We should promote suicide and advertise it as the ultimate expression of personal choice. Whether it's your health, your financial situation, or maybe you are just too much of a pussy to handle someone calling you names at school; whatever your reason, if you can't contribute to the society in which you live, or you can't abide living in the society in which you live, then by all means.... you should be able to go somewhere and snuff it. PBS should be required to run instructional PSAs for suicide like "Remember kids, it's "Up the street, not across the road"" or maybe "Smoking kills in 40 years. Draino kills in 40 seconds." Emily Autumn could do the music for them... -SD- Haven't you figured it out yet? Personal choice (My body, My choice) only is taken into consideration with regards to abortion. No, you may not have a larger soda. No, you may not smoke in your house/bar/car. No, you may not have trans fats. And so on and so forth.

Focus50 -> RE: Guns and Suicide (4/10/2013 9:56:09 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri Those are both your quotes, Focus. You argue that suicide by gun should still be included, but then say that the means to the suicide isn't what suicide deaths are about? Well duhhhh! lol If you intentionally kill yourself with a gun, the actual physical cause of death is from the gun - making you a gun stat. As to why you pulled the trigger - or jumped off a cliff, or slashed your wrists, overdosed etc - all these things are the incidental means of carrying out the act. Seems to me the first act to suicide is determining to go down that path. Figuring out how comes after, rather than back-to-front. If you choose the gun, and die from the gun - you're a gun-death stat as well as a suicide stat. Frankly, I'm somewhat puzzled as to why you think one point compromises the other...? quote: I honestly don't know if police shootings are included in gun violence stats, as they are not the same as a perp pulling the trigger. That could be what fills up the "Other" category, though. Again, why tha hell wouldn't they be? The stats are about the gun death, not who pulls the trigger. This from my first post: >> "The firearms death toll in Australia is mostly suicides, too. A link I posted in one of those other gun threads showed (for memory) that there were some 231 dun deaths in Australia in about 2010 (population 23 mill). And some 160ish were suicides - around 2/3rds of the total. Accidents and murders were about 16 apiece and the 30 odd remaining were designated "other", whatever tha hell that means...." << Three main categories - Accident, Murder, Suicide - and "Other", which had me scratching my head at the time. As you say and having thought about it since, myself, a justified police shooting (death) is none of the first 3, so "Other". As is a citizen self defense, or defense of another. Focus.

Focus50 -> RE: Guns and Suicide (4/10/2013 10:24:10 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FunCouple5280 Sorry focus, but whether or not guns are available doesn't impact the rate of suicide. Numerous studies both in the US and abroad on the impact of gun laws and suicide show no significant change in the rate of suicide. If guns are available, it is the method of choice because of its speed and reliability in getting the job done. But, if they aren't available, it just doesn't change one's mind, just the method of action. Your (US) suicide-by-gun rate is some 8 times per capita higher than in Australia. If that doesn't reflect respective gun availability then what? I say guns are the greater "method of choice" in the US BECAUSE of their greater availability. Spare me the old chestnut of "different cultures" unless you're game to acknowledge your country's rampant gun culture. I can't be bothered trawling for stats/links etc but I'd venture the actual suicide rate (all means) of both countries is probably similar per capita, just that by gun in the US is higher because, well, greater access. In other words, I mostly agree with you and the studies you're championing. And, you're welcome. Focus.

Powergamz1 -> RE: Guns and Suicide (4/10/2013 10:57:05 PM)
Because it is up to everyone else to clean up your mess, inhale your smoke, deal with your crimes, and pay for your excesses.[8\|] quote: ORIGINAL: Aylee Haven't you figured it out yet? Personal choice (My body, My choice) only is taken into consideration with regards to abortion. No, you may not have a larger soda. No, you may not smoke in your house/bar/car. No, you may not have trans fats. And so on and so forth.

Edwynn -> RE: Guns and Suicide (4/11/2013 12:43:35 AM)
~FR~ Sorry, but after reading through the first several comments and seeing the incessant repetition of "not being of sound mind" bandied about in such cavalier fashion, I feel the need for contextual clarification regarding the objects of such designation, for purpose of elucidation to those prone to such facile use of that designation. The simplest investigation of history tell's the thinking person, i.e., those of (actually) sound mind, that there has yet to be a ruling class, an empire, a democracy, a republic, a despotism, a tyranny, you name it, whose leaders/rulers/elected officials, etc., have demonstrated on any consistent basis that they are of sound mind. The Boxer Invasions/Rebellions, the completely imbecilic and inane diplomatic drunken/opiatic alley-stumbling of Britain and France preceding WWI, Hitler's campaign and those from all over Europe and the US who intellectually and materially supported him in his endeavor, two Iraqi invasions, preceded by arming them to the teeth by the invading country, the domestic genocide of Stalin and Mao, the attempt at domestic economic/financial genocide in the US via opening the gates to the Wall Street Huns, etc. I'm not saying that suicide is a 'proper' response to any of this, not at all. Just take note that throughout history there were a number of people possessed of exceptional mind that observed the world around them sufficiently enough to notice that they were in a society run by people clearly not of sound mind and after recognizing that they were of no use in such situation decided to escape this world. (Nietsche strikes me as one who just "took that ball (insanity of the world) and ran with it," but after giving up the battle he was in an asylum. That's how the majority of those understanding the reality of the world too well wind up, but some percentage wish to spare themselves and the rest of the world the trouble.) Some people do not possess such "great minds" as to be able to recognize the matter consciously, but they feel it intuitively, or they suffer from it directly, through domestic violence, criminal violence, police violence, (lately, "neighborhood watch" violence), invasion violence, inane presentation of the "news," reading anything about the US congress, etc., the latter two being a great and incessant violence upon both mind and psyche of anyone of truly "sound mind." If people just threw out the TV, and and "talk radio" were forced off the air, the pharma companies and their pushers the psychiatrists and psychologists and other "mental health" practitioners would suffer financially, no question, but both homicides and suicides would be noticeably reduced.

FunCouple5280 -> RE: Guns and Suicide (4/11/2013 6:24:17 AM)
Again Focus you have to read. As I said in my post the availability of guns in the US make them the tool of choice. There is no argument there. However, eliminating them will not lower the suicide rate, just won't. When you come to that conclusion it is so personal and deep, you are going to do whatever is necessary to make it work. I don't know why you obsess over this notion that the existence makes a person want to kill themselves. It is utter nonsense.

Edwynn -> RE: Guns and Suicide (4/11/2013 7:31:15 AM)
I'm not sure what the gist of the argument is thus far regarding guns and suicide, but though it's true that those truly bent on ending their own life will find a way, there are those suicides that are 'opportunistic' in nature. There are far more people who contemplate suicide than those who actually accomplish it. Often times in these various contemplations, the palitability and/or ease or facility of the various methods come into play for those merely 'on the edge.' It's impossible to gather proper statistics on the number of attempted suicides (think about it), but if we consider that some suicides are just as much a 'crime of passion' as some murders are, and that ease of accomplishment comes into play in both situations, at the heighth of emotion the ease or greater facility of satisfying that 'passion' can be a difference maker. Jumping off a building, committing harikiri, diving off a high bridge into a deep, cold, and wide river, pulling an Anna Karenina, self-immolation by way of either sati or political protest, drinking antifreeze, etc., are methods only for the truly committed. Guns are for the more squeamish of the lot. No chance for "Oh crap! I take that back!", or "Oh CHRIST that hurts! Why didn't I just put a gun to my head!" More traditional methods of suicide have historically been a deterrent for the less committed. Were I in that mode (which I haven't been thus far), overdosing on heroin would be my first choice, by a wide margin. A gun would be the second choice, but then a gun is about 1,000 times easier to get than heroin. You can definitely put me in with the "more squeamish" lot, safe to say.

cordeliasub -> RE: Guns and Suicide (4/11/2013 7:44:33 AM)
There is a saying that suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem. It is trite....but there is truth to it. As someone who was hospitalized due to a suicide attempt in 2010....I can tell you that it is...selfish. Period. My suffering might have ended, but it would have BEGUN life long suffering for those I claimed to love. I missed my daughter's birthday because I was in a hospital where everything was locked up, all the drawstrings were removed from my pants, and they counted the plastic silverwear before throwing it away. Two years later I was at the store when they got home from school and forgot to leave a note....and they were wigging out and crying when I got home, thinking I had tried again. I had been through and was in a hellish set of life circumstances. My medication was screwed up. I had been having suicidal ideation for months. I planned it on the Monday of their spring break so the funeral wouldn't interfere with their school. It is 3 years later now.....and all that hell I thought would never end......did. And I am soooo damn thankful I am still here. So no......I am glad no one thought me leaving my children, parents, brother, spouse, friends, etc. to pick up the pieces was a good idea.

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