RE: Young Christians are leaving churches and some atheists are unhappy

RE: Young Christians are leaving churches and some atheists are unhappy (Full Version)

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Phoenixpower -> RE: Young Christians are leaving churches and some atheists are unhappy (4/12/2013 1:05:24 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Owner59 IMHO...those "leaving THE church" are in no way leaving god or their spirituality. Seems more times then not,churches are political entities,concentrations of power and money,the larger and more wealthy they become,the more harm they do and the more they can do harm without repercussion Very well said [:)]

kalikshama -> RE: Young Christians are leaving churches and some atheists are unhappy (4/12/2013 2:14:53 PM)
quote: Four Reasons I Came Back to Church One of the many things I like about Unitarian Universalism is that it's fine to be an atheist (or whatever.) I get the sense of belonging without the dogma.

GotSteel -> RE: Young Christians are leaving churches and some atheists are unhappy (4/12/2013 7:14:51 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Fightdirecto My girl and I started going back to church this past October - in part because we wanted that "sense of belonging" the article's author mentioned. And there it is. Christianity is compelling not because the supernatural claims are at all reasonable but because people want to fit in. As a species we're so bad that way that we'll actually hold clearly false positions just to belong: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TYIh4MkcfJA It doesn't actually matter to the average person that our position is the valid one, hell the average person doesn't even have the skill set to figure that out. What matters is there being a perception that enough atheists exist that it's ok to call yourself one and that it's not ok to be a bigot towards atheists. That's why people like the blogger you quoted try to motivate atheists to come out of the closet and speak up.

Kirata -> RE: Young Christians are leaving churches and some atheists are unhappy (4/12/2013 7:31:45 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GotSteel quote: ORIGINAL: Fightdirecto My girl and I started going back to church this past October - in part because we wanted that "sense of belonging" the article's author mentioned. And there it is. Christianity is compelling not because the supernatural claims are at all reasonable but because people want to fit in. And there it is. One person speaking about attendance at chuch, the other trying to score faux points for Atheism by changing the context to a belief in "supernatural claims". I wonder if these kinds of tricks might possibly explain why there are many Atheists who don't want to "fit in" with the rest. K.

Powergamz1 -> RE: Young Christians are leaving churches and some atheists are unhappy (4/12/2013 10:19:48 PM)
The 'question' is a set up because you build in the straw position that atheism is a religion that is merely competing for converts to it's dogma... There is nothing to show that faith based spiritual or corporate beliefs are any more in keeping with atheism than faith based shamanistic beliefs, etc. If you are a believer, you are a believer, changing robes doesn't make you an atheist. quote: ORIGINAL: Fightdirecto Author David Kinnaman has written a very interesting book, Six Reasons Young Christians Leave Church. Based on his research, here are the top reasons younger people are leaving Christian churches: quote: Overall, the research uncovered six significant themes why nearly three out of every five young Christians (59%) disconnect either permanently or for an extended period of time from church life after age 15.... 1. The Church is too insular - They tell you everything outside the church is bad and wrong...even though young people know that’s not the case. 2. Church isn’t important, relevant, or interesting to the younger generation. 3. Christians are too anti-science. 4. Christians are sex-negative, wrongly pushing abstinence-only education and avoiding frank discussions about sex. 5. Christianity is too “exclusive” - you’re either one of them or you’re the enemy. 6. Christians are hostile to those who doubt any part of the faith. Some atheists are unhappy with the author's findings, however: The Friendly Atheist quote: My guess is that most of you are thinking Piatt forgot the most obvious reason people leave church: They figured out God doesn’t exist. Ok, so maybe that was just my first reaction… They realized Christianity bases its entire foundation on a lie. The story the pastors are preaching just isn’t true. You can do all the community building and hand-holding and schedule changing you want — it’ll amount to jack once people realize there’s no god out there. But from the perspective of real, believing Christians who get disillusioned with their faith, that’s not the reason they walk away. As fun as it would be to pat ourselves on the back and give ourselves credit for Christians leaving the church, we don’t deserve it. While some of those reasons lean in the direction of “Christianity avoids reality,” NONE OF THEM OUTRIGHT SAY PEOPLE STOPPED BELIEVING IN A GOD OR AN ATHEIST CONVINCED THEM TO WALK AWAY FROM FAITH. If you are an atheist, does it bother you that young people are leaving the Church - but still remain spiritual, still remain religious - but still haven't "converted" to atheism? Aren't your arguments good enough?

Kirata -> RE: Young Christians are leaving churches and some atheists are unhappy (4/13/2013 12:51:35 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Powergamz1 If you are a believer, you are a believer, changing robes doesn't make you an atheist. I have interacted with Atheists most of my life, academically, professionally, and socially. While they all rejected the God described by our Western Monotheisms, most either entertained the idea of something greater, variously defined or undefined, or were not averse to the possibility. Some Atheists, however, are Atheists only contingently. They are first and foremost Materialists (in the formal, not pejorative, sense) of one stripe or another, which is to say that they believe reality to consist solely of mass-energy and its interactions, and that any notion of anything else (not limited just to a God or gods) is purely "supernatural woo." Now, one definition of religion is "a set of beliefs about the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe," and this type of so-called "Atheism" qualifies. Its believers, as a rule, are as hidebound as priests, and their favorite ploy, when attempting to explain why reasonable people shouldn't regard them as religious nuts, is to insist that they are "open-minded," by which they mean that they are willing to accept the existence of a non-physical reality just as soon as someone shows them physical proof of one. I hope you can see the irony in that. Apparently they can't. So in fact, some so-called "Atheists" are indeed just a bunch of evangelicals competing for converts among the unwashed. There are more than a few of them right here in P&R, and doubtless they'll be along soon to deny it. K.

crazyml -> RE: Young Christians are leaving churches and some atheists are unhappy (4/13/2013 2:13:52 AM)
I'm an atheist. In common with some of the atheists you refer to - I'm not averse to the notion that there's something supernatural out there - You know... something must have started "it all" etc. My Atheism is a total rejection of the idea of "God" as defined by pretty much any belief system. I'm also a materialist by you definition, although I think it's possible to hold a materialist standpoint while also respecting that "spirituality" is a very natural (and real) thing. I reject your carefully selected definition of religion - I would argue that definitions of religion that seek to remove "God" from the definition are sophistry. I'd go further and say that those definitions usually have some agenda. But sure... if the definition of religion you've chosen to apply is the one we have to run with then sure... I have a set of religious beliefs that assume the absence of a god figure..... I'm not sure that's particularly ironic. To the OP.. Nah... it doesn't bother me at all. My personal journey to atheism began with my leaving my church for very similar reasons to those listed. So, I'm willing to bet that a good number of the young people that depart will eventually become atheists. It's very interesting that the growing crisis in religion should be combined with some silliness on an atheist website in an attempt to create some "Believer vs Atheist" controversy. I have to say, Fightdirecto, that I am detecting a little hostility towards atheists in your posts. If you really care about god, you ought to be addressing those 6 reasons.... I suppose this could be a defensive response on my part, but you know - I'm very happy that my believing friends have their faith. Indeed, I'm prepared to admit to being a little envious of them at times. But, there's a vague sense that you're trying to put all atheists into the same pot - You know the arrogant Dawkins-eque "I'm an atheist because I'm ever so clever and if you believe in god it's because you're not as smart as me" bullshit. Well I'm not in that group - I know a lot of people a lot smarter than me who are theists. I would encourage you to read Alain de Botton's book "Religion for Atheists". It's a thoughtful book (even though de Botton is pretty irritating at other times) that will help you to understand atheism a little better, and while I doubt it will persuade you to become an atheist (that is not the books intention), I do expect that the book will help some doubters accept their atheism. [ED to add missing bracket]

Kirata -> RE: Young Christians are leaving churches and some atheists are unhappy (4/13/2013 2:19:14 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: crazyml I would argue that definitions of religion that seek to remove "God" from the definition are sophistry. Gautama the Sophist, then? Those tricky Buddhists! K.

crazyml -> RE: Young Christians are leaving churches and some atheists are unhappy (4/13/2013 6:02:01 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Kirata quote: ORIGINAL: crazyml I would argue that definitions of religion that seek to remove "God" from the definition are sophistry. Gautama the Sophist, then? Those tricky Buddhists! K. Quite.

FrostedFlake -> RE: Young Christians are leaving churches and some atheists are unhappy (4/13/2013 11:47:48 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Kirata quote: ORIGINAL: FrostedFlake Genesis was written by Moses When you have to fall back on ignorant fundamentalist arguments, it's time to either give up or get a TV show. quote: ORIGINAL: FrostedFlake In that you did not contradict me I contradicted you twice, actually, and this makes the third time. K. Okay. I give up.

PeonForHer -> RE: Young Christians are leaving churches and some atheists are unhappy (4/13/2013 12:15:41 PM)
FD, maybe you should do a poll on this. I could be wrong, but I have a feeling that more atheists would tick the 'don't care' box than you might expect.

GotSteel -> RE: Young Christians are leaving churches and some atheists are unhappy (4/13/2013 8:31:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/supernatural : of or relating to an order of existence beyond the visible observable universe; especially : of or relating to God or a god, demigod, spirit, or devil 2 a : departing from what is usual or normal especially so as to appear to transcend the laws of nature b : attributed to an invisible agent (as a ghost or spirit) quote: ORIGINAL: crazyml I'm an atheist. In common with some of the atheists you refer to - I'm not averse to the notion that there's something supernatural out there - You know... something must have started "it all" etc. Looking at the definition you could sort of say that the other dimensions in string theory would count as supernatural if they turn out to exist. But I don't think that's how they're going to get labelled. I expect that our understanding of the natural world would expand to encompass them, like we did with quantum physics. The label supernatural has become a dumping ground for conspiracy theories involving magical thinking. I'm quite comfortable saying that there's nothing supernatural out there not because I think there isn't anything the label could be applied to but because our civilization doesn't use that label for real things. quote: ORIGINAL: crazyml My Atheism is a total rejection of the idea of "God" as defined by pretty much any belief system. I'm also a materialist by you definition, although I think it's possible to hold a materialist standpoint while also respecting that "spirituality" is a very natural (and real) thing. My atheism is more about considering certain definitions of faith to be synonyms for gullibility. Spirituality on the other hand is such a vague word that it can mean just about anything. Under some definitions plain old introspection and contemplation would count. Depending on how one looks at that word the average atheist can be considered to be way more spiritual than the average person.

JeffBC -> RE: Young Christians are leaving churches and some atheists are unhappy (4/13/2013 9:57:43 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GotSteel Sounds like your an apatheist. I've been there. For many the transition from apatheist to "evangelical atheist" is the result of meeting too many religious asshats. Actually not really. My reasoning goes like this. Whether or not god exists and there's a soul and an afterlife and all that is going to be totally inscrutable in THIS life. There will not be a definitive answer provided. However, with just a bit of patience I'm going to die one of these day. And when I do I'll either be worm food or not. If the answer is "or not", then I'll be perfectly content to answer for my life as it stands. ergo.. god and jesus both are irrelevant right now. I'm living my life as a "good man" anyway. It's not that I'm apathetic. It's that I truly don't see it as relevant or useful.

thezeppo -> RE: Young Christians are leaving churches and some atheists are unhappy (4/14/2013 1:26:10 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: JeffBC quote: ORIGINAL: GotSteel Sounds like your an apatheist. I've been there. For many the transition from apatheist to "evangelical atheist" is the result of meeting too many religious asshats. Actually not really. My reasoning goes like this. Whether or not god exists and there's a soul and an afterlife and all that is going to be totally inscrutable in THIS life. There will not be a definitive answer provided. However, with just a bit of patience I'm going to die one of these day. And when I do I'll either be worm food or not. If the answer is "or not", then I'll be perfectly content to answer for my life as it stands. ergo.. god and jesus both are irrelevant right now. I'm living my life as a "good man" anyway. It's not that I'm apathetic. It's that I truly don't see it as relevant or useful. I was speaking to a Catholic priest recently and I said this exact thing to him regarding myself, and he told me that I would be going to hell. Apparently its not enough to do good things, you have to do it with the fear of God in your heart or it doesn't count. Of course, a priest would say that.

crazyml -> RE: Young Christians are leaving churches and some atheists are unhappy (4/14/2013 1:38:07 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: thezeppo quote: ORIGINAL: JeffBC quote: ORIGINAL: GotSteel Sounds like your an apatheist. I've been there. For many the transition from apatheist to "evangelical atheist" is the result of meeting too many religious asshats. Actually not really. My reasoning goes like this. Whether or not god exists and there's a soul and an afterlife and all that is going to be totally inscrutable in THIS life. There will not be a definitive answer provided. However, with just a bit of patience I'm going to die one of these day. And when I do I'll either be worm food or not. If the answer is "or not", then I'll be perfectly content to answer for my life as it stands. ergo.. god and jesus both are irrelevant right now. I'm living my life as a "good man" anyway. It's not that I'm apathetic. It's that I truly don't see it as relevant or useful. I was speaking to a Catholic priest recently and I said this exact thing to him regarding myself, and he told me that I would be going to hell. Apparently its not enough to do good things, you have to do it with the fear of God in your heart or it doesn't count. Of course, a priest would say that. I'm guessing that you didn't let the opinion of a chap who is a member of an organisation that protects child rapists spoil your day though, right?

crazyml -> RE: Young Christians are leaving churches and some atheists are unhappy (4/14/2013 1:46:21 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GotSteel quote: ORIGINAL: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/supernatural : of or relating to an order of existence beyond the visible observable universe; especially : of or relating to God or a god, demigod, spirit, or devil 2 a : departing from what is usual or normal especially so as to appear to transcend the laws of nature b : attributed to an invisible agent (as a ghost or spirit) quote: ORIGINAL: crazyml I'm an atheist. In common with some of the atheists you refer to - I'm not averse to the notion that there's something supernatural out there - You know... something must have started "it all" etc. Looking at the definition you could sort of say that the other dimensions in string theory would count as supernatural if they turn out to exist. But I don't think that's how they're going to get labelled. I expect that our understanding of the natural world would expand to encompass them, like we did with quantum physics. Oh I'm quite certain that all of these things will be explainable, but I'm not averse to the notion that there may be something supernatural. That'll be my open mind at work perhaps? quote: The label supernatural has become a dumping ground for conspiracy theories involving magical thinking. I'm quite comfortable saying that there's nothing supernatural out there not because I think there isn't anything the label could be applied to but because our civilization doesn't use that label for real things. Can you see how that position might be seen as somewhat "dogmatic"? quote: quote: ORIGINAL: crazyml My Atheism is a total rejection of the idea of "God" as defined by pretty much any belief system. I'm also a materialist by you definition, although I think it's possible to hold a materialist standpoint while also respecting that "spirituality" is a very natural (and real) thing. My atheism is more about considering certain definitions of faith to be synonyms for gullibility. Then don't complain when theists argue that certain definitions of atheism are synonyms for arrogance and hubris! quote: Spirituality on the other hand is such a vague word that it can mean just about anything. Under some definitions plain old introspection and contemplation would count. Depending on how one looks at that word the average atheist can be considered to be way more spiritual than the average person. Sure. sure. So I get the impression you're of Dawkins school when it comes to your atheism. That's ok. As long as you acknowledge that he comes across as a bit of a wanker...

egern -> RE: Young Christians are leaving churches and some atheists are unhappy (4/14/2013 1:58:35 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Phoenixpower Over here a fair amount of people leave church to avoid having to pay church tax... Now...I am carrying the desire with me to leave catholic church and to join the protestant church (as I am not against the church taxes themselves) but as in my current field the majority of employers demand being part of the catholic church (at least in southern Germany) it would right now put me at risk to do me more harm than good... So for now I am leaving that aim to leave it and hope to do so in a few years time, but at least I will make sure that if I have kids one day, that they will not be part of the catholic church....but the protestant church instead...as there are just too many things in the catholic church which I am very much against. In Germany???? I am so surprised! Is it even legal??

thezeppo -> RE: Young Christians are leaving churches and some atheists are unhappy (4/14/2013 2:01:29 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: crazyml quote: ORIGINAL: thezeppo quote: ORIGINAL: JeffBC quote: ORIGINAL: GotSteel Sounds like your an apatheist. I've been there. For many the transition from apatheist to "evangelical atheist" is the result of meeting too many religious asshats. Actually not really. My reasoning goes like this. Whether or not god exists and there's a soul and an afterlife and all that is going to be totally inscrutable in THIS life. There will not be a definitive answer provided. However, with just a bit of patience I'm going to die one of these day. And when I do I'll either be worm food or not. If the answer is "or not", then I'll be perfectly content to answer for my life as it stands. ergo.. god and jesus both are irrelevant right now. I'm living my life as a "good man" anyway. It's not that I'm apathetic. It's that I truly don't see it as relevant or useful. I was speaking to a Catholic priest recently and I said this exact thing to him regarding myself, and he told me that I would be going to hell. Apparently its not enough to do good things, you have to do it with the fear of God in your heart or it doesn't count. Of course, a priest would say that. I'm guessing that you didn't let the opinion of a chap who is a member of an organisation that protects child rapists spoil your day though, right? Nope, I walked away like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F3qH61MnKxA I was raised a Catholic, but if I were ever to rejoin a church that would be the last one I would go for.

egern -> RE: Young Christians are leaving churches and some atheists are unhappy (4/14/2013 2:03:54 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle quote: ORIGINAL: Phoenixpower Over here a fair amount of people leave church to avoid having to pay church tax... Now...I am carrying the desire with me to leave catholic church and to join the protestant church (as I am not against the church taxes themselves) but as in my current field the majority of employers demand being part of the catholic church (at least in southern Germany) it would right now put me at risk to do me more harm than good... So for now I am leaving that aim to leave it and hope to do so in a few years time, but at least I will make sure that if I have kids one day, that they will not be part of the catholic church....but the protestant church instead...as there are just too many things in the catholic church which I am very much against. Does that add up to a mild form of theocracy? No, that adds up to a damn harsh form of theorcracy.

egern -> RE: Young Christians are leaving churches and some atheists are unhappy (4/14/2013 2:05:38 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Phoenixpower quote: ORIGINAL: thezeppo Do the children get a choice in that situation? If not it could be further reason why so many stop going to church when they are able. In case you are asking in regards to my example, once they are 14 they do not have to take part on the church stuff there cause once you are 14 you can chose yourself at school as well, if you take part on religious education or not (which I dropped out back then due to a horrid bullying religious teacher who kept demanding oh so much knowledge from me which I seriously did not care about....) so they can spend time by themselves (though outside of bed and outside of the group house whilst the rest is at church) until the church visit is over. But the real indoctrination happens before that. Sad. Unfair. Not a criticism of you or your choices, of course, but of the policies of the church.

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