RE: structure issues

RE: structure issues (Full Version)

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SeekingTrinity -> RE: structure issues (4/16/2013 9:32:33 AM)
~FRing it~ I've never been one to have an issue whatsoever with a submissive talking with me openly and honestly about what was going on in their head. I personally maintain an open door policy as far as communication with my submissive is concerned. I don't see it as topping from the bottom. I see it as both of us building the dynamic we both want and that will make us both happy. I'd rather be given the chance to take into consideration what was being asked for. But that's just the way I like being. My advice is to speak from the heart with your dominant about your feelings. Not all of us see it as topping from the bottom or being disrespectful. In my eyes, it's disrespectful to not say something when you have something on your mind. *edit for typo..stupid iPad [:)]

JeffBC -> RE: structure issues (4/16/2013 10:11:04 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SeekingTrinity I see it as both of us building the dynamic we both want and that will make us both happy. Exactly... and for me at least, a significant part of the equation is that my happines = Carol's happiness & vice versa. Those two things are very tightly intertwined. It's also worth mentioning that when Carol does bring such things to my attention she is not demanding that I do anything in particular. She is alerting me to a pothole in the road and I may "drive around it" in a variety of ways. For something like this it's almost certainly true that I would modify Carol, myself, and our dynamic in different ways to reach better compatibility. She would accept whatever determination I made and immediately start getting busy on whatever changes I dictated in her. Watching her do that would result in me thinking warm and happy thoughts about how "mine" she is -- the exact opposite of "topping from the bottom".

subsfaith -> RE: structure issues (4/16/2013 10:58:42 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady Your comments would be appropriate if she were going to tell him he sucks at being her daddydom, but that isn't what she wants to do. OP, simply sit down with him and explain that you would really like more rules and structure. That is what adults do. I agree to sitting and talking to him, saying what she wants, it is common sense.... but her post isn't saying that, she is saying she needs it. If she doesn't get it, what is she going to do? And forgive me for being jaded, but I've never managed to have this conversation without the man feeling disrespected... until I started telling him what I wanted and leaving him to work it out. Maybe that is just my experience. Perhaps some of the male contributors could tell us how they would react to being told their woman is feeling disappointed and dissatisfied?

subsfaith -> RE: structure issues (4/16/2013 11:07:33 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Aswad quote: ORIGINAL: subsfaith Saying you 'need' something is placing a condition on your relationship, and yes, that is topping from the bottom. What are you on about? Communicating needs is one of the most important tasks a sub/slave has. If you're going to abuse the phrase 'topping from the bottom', you might as well apply it to what you're doing here: imposing your own idea of what a dom should want/have in their relationship. Unless told otherwise, a sub/slave should endeavour to communicate as clearly as possible on pretty much any topic, and particularly those that concern the relationship. I completely agree with you communicating needs is of the utmost important... but let us not confuse needs and wants here. A need, by definition, is something that is conditional, necessary, etc. A 'need' is a universal condition across race, gender. Not everyone needs structure. Therefore it is a want, not a need as the OP says. To place such high importance on structure is placing conditions on him, or in other words, controlling his actions. So I do believe that 'topping from the bottom' is a very apt phrase in this situation. Perhaps I am taking the OP too literally?

SeekingTrinity -> RE: structure issues (4/16/2013 12:39:11 PM)
All due respect, but if BOTH people are not getting their needs met...what's the point of doing it at all? Perhaps the dominant is acting the way he does because he felt that was what OP wanted? Who knows...but if everyone stays silent, how will OP know one way or the other? Silence is not always golden. I do agree that it sounds like more talk before dynamic might have been in order, but I've also observed that things can shift and settle a bit as people progress in their relationship. It's something I've especially noticed in novices as they mature, but I think that it can happen with veterans in this lifestyle as well when a relationship takes root and starts to grow. Whether its a BDSM or a plain ol' vanilla relationship, EVERY single one of us have needs and wants and desires. OP feels its a need for her...who are you to argue whether it is or it isnt? You are filtering what they are saying through your own filtering system and making judgments based on that. But the only two people who ultimately matter in their particular dynamic are OP and their dominant. Frankly telling someone they are disrespectful or topping from the bottom is you presuming to speak for the dominant in question. It would be in my case if OP was my submissive and you were giving them the same advice. Like other dominants have previously expressed, I too would much rather my submissive come to me with what is on their mind. I can decide from there what I want to do or not do. But if I'm talked with about things, I have a say. Hiding shit from me or making me have to act like a data miner to find shit out is worse in my eyes than someone saying something along the lines of "hey, I've been feeling <fill in the blank> because of <fill in the blank>." Because someone expresses a need/desire/want, it doesn't automatically rise to the level of the cursed topping from the bottom. If someone is feeling something is missing or not quite right, they cannot give me 100% because their mind is divided. I myself need my submissive to give at 100%. I don't like being cheated out of what is rightfully mine and although I'm that good [:)], I'm honestly not a mind reader. Not everything is black and white and rigid

NuevaVida -> RE: structure issues (4/16/2013 12:57:30 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: subsfaith quote: ORIGINAL: Aswad quote: ORIGINAL: subsfaith Saying you 'need' something is placing a condition on your relationship, and yes, that is topping from the bottom. What are you on about? Communicating needs is one of the most important tasks a sub/slave has. If you're going to abuse the phrase 'topping from the bottom', you might as well apply it to what you're doing here: imposing your own idea of what a dom should want/have in their relationship. Unless told otherwise, a sub/slave should endeavour to communicate as clearly as possible on pretty much any topic, and particularly those that concern the relationship. I completely agree with you communicating needs is of the utmost important... but let us not confuse needs and wants here. A need, by definition, is something that is conditional, necessary, etc. A 'need' is a universal condition across race, gender. Not everyone needs structure. Therefore it is a want, not a need as the OP says. To place such high importance on structure is placing conditions on him, or in other words, controlling his actions. So I do believe that 'topping from the bottom' is a very apt phrase in this situation. Perhaps I am taking the OP too literally? I disagree. As individuals, we all have different emotional needs. We have different inspirations and different motivators. What nourishes me emotionally may be completely different from what nourishes you. I have, in the past, told the Mister I was unhappy about something, and if what he wanted was a need for him then we needed to consider the possibility that we were mismatched and if he should find someone better suited for him. This was an open and honest dialogue which enabled us to know each other better in the long run. He could then make his own choice as to how to proceed. No topping him here.

subsfaith -> RE: structure issues (4/16/2013 1:39:51 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SeekingTrinity OP feels its a need for her...who are you to argue whether it is or it isnt? Actually, I was basing it on peer reviewed psychology theory... studies that are across race and gender. There is a recognised definition for 'need' within this field that bypasses any individualism. Like I said, perhaps I was taking the OPs word too literally :D

UllrsIshtar -> RE: structure issues (4/16/2013 1:54:12 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: subsfaith quote: ORIGINAL: SeekingTrinity OP feels its a need for her...who are you to argue whether it is or it isnt? Actually, I was basing it on peer reviewed psychology theory... studies that are across race and gender. There is a recognised definition for 'need' within this field that bypasses any individualism. Like I said, perhaps I was taking the OPs word too literally :D I think you are. A "need" as she is using the term would be something "a bare minimum for her to be fulfilled within, or willing to stay in, a relationship". I a person doesn't accept sexual contact with others than their partner, for instance, they would "need" a partner who is ok with monogamy. So yes, while that sort of need puts conditions on the dominant, it is not topping from the bottom. Instead, it's just self-defining relationship boundaries within which a mutually fulfilling relationship can be created. All people do that, and it's got nothing to do with topping from the bottom. If a person would not set such boundaries on the relationship they're in, or are willing to enter into, then basically any random dominant would do, and compatibility would become a moot point.

littlewonder -> RE: structure issues (4/16/2013 7:04:08 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NuevaVida "I kind of like being happy." That made me smile. It really is as simple as that. ain't it? [:)]

littlewonder -> RE: structure issues (4/16/2013 7:12:09 PM)
quote: Perhaps some of the male contributors could tell us how they would react to being told their woman is feeling disappointed and dissatisfied? I'm not male but I will tell you how Master and I handled/handle it. When we first got together and for the first few years together, there were things that were bothering me about us, times when I was feeling unhappy, dissatisfied, that there were problems. What did I do? I talked to him. I asked him if we could talk about some stuff that was on my mind that was making me feel unhappy. He said of course. We sat down like two rational, calm, adults. I told him what was wrong. He asked questions and I asked questions. He responded, I responded. Now sometimes the problem got resolved and we smiled, kissed, snuggled, etc...and went on with life. Other times, it wasn't resolved because it wasn't the right time, couldn't be fixed or whatever, but we still smiled, kissed, snuggled, agreed to keep hammering away at the issue and to continue to talk about it when the need arose. If a man cannot handle a conversation with you, no matter what it is about, why would you want him around? I mean, don't you get tired of walking on eggshells? Always being afraid to talk to him because you know it's not going to end well? I've been there. I hated every single moment of it. It destroyed me. It destroyed the other person and it ended the relationship. He had emotional baggage, insecurities that he needed to work on. I had my own issues that I needed to work on and years later when our relationship had been over for many years, we ran into each other and we both could sit down and talk about the stuff that had happened because we both had moved on with our lives and realized we had to fix ourselves before we could ever be happy with anyone....ever. Just some food for thought.

JeffBC -> RE: structure issues (4/16/2013 8:00:24 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: subsfaith Perhaps I am taking the OP too literally? I don't think you're off-base on your definition for "need". Granted, it isn't exactly how that word is commonly used but it makes a great deal of sense. What I DO think, however, is that you and I don't see anything even remotely similarly regarding the words "dominance", "submission", or "control". It's also true that we don't see the eye to eye on the phrase "topping from the bottom". Then again, my thoughts on D/s are more drawn from business school and "leadership" than they are the pages of BDSM texts. By the way, do you have a term you'd like to use for "a want so significant that failure to meet it will absolutely torpedo the relationship and may well torpedo the individual"? Because honestly, if you don't want to use "need" for that it'd be nice to have some other simple word to use. I have to tell you that I would call it a "needful thing" because in it's absence everything else I want collapses. Finally, I have a really, REALLY hard time with the idea that Carol insisting on anything beyond minimalistic shelter and food is "topping from the bottom". By that definition there has never been a D/s relationship on the face of the planet wherein the sub wasn't topping from the bottom. And honestly, what use is a definition like that?

HisPet21 -> RE: structure issues (4/17/2013 1:16:31 PM)
quote: If a man cannot handle a conversation with you, no matter what it is about, why would you want him around? I mean, don't you get tired of walking on eggshells? Always being afraid to talk to him because you know it's not going to end well? Veritable words of wisdom, LW. The first sign of a bad relationship is a fear of communication.

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