RE: Does it bother anyone else the Boston terrorist is 19? (Full Version)

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tweakabelle -> RE: Does it bother anyone else the Boston terrorist is 19? (5/3/2013 1:23:30 AM)

It's one thing for us sitting in our comfortable homes in the West, thousands of kilometres from the fighting to react to and comment on various aspects of that fighting. It's quite another I imagine to be living there and witnessing at first hand the effects of drone attacks.

Putting yourself in the position of a resident of the areas targeted, and bearing in mind that in the past, drone attacks have been launched at, and hit wedding parties and other non-military targets with devastating casualties, how would you react?
Would you be drawing distinctions between military and civilian targets?
Would you feel that the people who launched the missile attack draw such distinctions?
Do you feel the outrage you might feel is any different to the real and justified horror we all have at events in Boston?
Do you feel the outrage of a resident of that area is any more or less legitimate than the outrage we all feel at the perpetrators of the Boston atrocity, or 9/11 or 7/7 or any similar event?

Terrorism is not a natural phenomenon, it is self evidently a human creation. So terrorists are not born they are made. I am not trying to justify terrorism at all, I am trying to identify one way in which terrorism and terrorists are made. Can you see from the above one way in which terrorists are made?



Politesub53 -> RE: Does it bother anyone else the Boston terrorist is 19? (5/3/2013 3:05:39 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: WantsOfTheFlesh

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53
I am guessing you didnt bother with even a cursory glance through the young mans blog. If so you would see instantly how often drone attacks occur. Are you really suggesting the drone attacks you mention in Pakistan include everyone in a 10 month period, let alone worldwide ?

If you are, and are also happy with your figures, are attacks on rescuers permissable, or collateral ? Because to me there is nothing collateral or accidental about a double tap in many of the cases he mentions.


give tha rhetoric a rest & b truthful bout what folks ya disagree wit are actually saying. i said no fucking such thing about attacks on rescuers being ok. i said if it was shown to be US policy i would condemn it also. tha drone attacks r least 90% of tha time in pakistan & afghanistan so yr exaggerating when ya talk bout "worldwide" figures.

ffs i said there would have been hundreds of drone attacks in a 10 month period. yr nyc dude would have checked loads of reports about tha attacks. tha article says 4 such drone attacks suggested a double attack strategy in tha same 10 months. point is thats about tha worst case example he had but it would be a tiny percentage of tha total num of attacks there.



Speaking of rhetoric. I didnt say you were happy with drone attacks , as shown by my bolded comment.



WantsOfTheFlesh -> RE: Does it bother anyone else the Boston terrorist is 19? (5/3/2013 4:48:50 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
It's one thing for us sitting in our comfortable homes in the West, thousands of kilometres from the fighting to react to and comment on various aspects of that fighting. It's quite another I imagine to be living there and witnessing at first hand the effects of drone attacks.

Putting yourself in the position of a resident of the areas targeted, and bearing in mind that in the past, drone attacks have been launched at, and hit wedding parties and other non-military targets with devastating casualties, how would you react?
Would you be drawing distinctions between military and civilian targets?
Would you feel that the people who launched the missile attack draw such distinctions?
Do you feel the outrage you might feel is any different to the real and justified horror we all have at events in Boston?
Do you feel the outrage of a resident of that area is any more or less legitimate than the outrage we all feel at the perpetrators of the Boston atrocity, or 9/11 or 7/7 or any similar event?

ya cite tha 2008 wedding party strike. it was a terrible thing killing 47 civilians but even tha afghan government that isnt shy of criticizing tha US said tha taliban were fighting tha allies at tha time http://www.reuters.com/article/2008/11/05/us-afghan-violence-idUSTRE4A44EW20081105 & they also said tha taliban deliberately fight from villages as a pr tactic.

tweaks tho ya talk bout tha outrage "we all feel at the perpetrators of the Boston atrocity" they r just words i doubt ya mean coz ya then justify tha attitudes of folks who make those attacks by asking would they be drawing distinctions "between military and civilian targets" & would tha outrage b any less real there in pakistan wit civilians being killed.

now i know ya will say no i wanted to explain it all not justify it. maybe ya did but why did ya ignore tha other causes of radicalisation, just tha ones ya like to blame tha US for?

ya ignore tha fact folks know in pakistan & afghanistan who is doing tha intentional killing of civilians coz they live wit way worse every day under tha taliban, al qaeda & others. they also kill way more ordinary folks than tha US & terrorize loadsa communities into silence wit personal one on one reprisals. why are folks here silent bout tha impact of that?

quote:

Terrorism is not a natural phenomenon, it is self evidently a human creation. So terrorists are not born they are made. I am not trying to justify terrorism at all, I am trying to identify one way in which terrorism and terrorists are made. Can you see from the above one way in which terrorists are made?

can ya not see radicalization is tha consequence of terrorism & thats taught morre than as experienced? how long its been since there was war in saudi arabia so why r so many radicals coming from there? you & others also forget many folks there see tha consequences of radicalization in tha taliban & some folks there even welcome tha drone strikes.



WantsOfTheFlesh -> RE: Does it bother anyone else the Boston terrorist is 19? (5/3/2013 4:56:43 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53
quote:

ORIGINAL: WantsOfTheFlesh
quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53
I am guessing you didnt bother with even a cursory glance through the young mans blog. If so you would see instantly how often drone attacks occur. Are you really suggesting the drone attacks you mention in Pakistan include everyone in a 10 month period, let alone worldwide ?

If you are, and are also happy with your figures, are attacks on rescuers permissable, or collateral ? Because to me there is nothing collateral or accidental about a double tap in many of the cases he mentions.


give tha rhetoric a rest & b truthful bout what folks ya disagree wit are actually saying. i said no fucking such thing about attacks on rescuers being ok. i said if it was shown to be US policy i would condemn it also. tha drone attacks r least 90% of tha time in pakistan & afghanistan so yr exaggerating when ya talk bout "worldwide" figures.

ffs i said there would have been hundreds of drone attacks in a 10 month period. yr nyc dude would have checked loads of reports about tha attacks. tha article says 4 such drone attacks suggested a double attack strategy in tha same 10 months. point is thats about tha worst case example he had but it would be a tiny percentage of tha total num of attacks there.

Speaking of rhetoric. I didnt say you were happy with drone attacks , as shown by my bolded comment.

ya suggested i was ok wit double tapping when ya asked "are attacks on rescuers permissable" coz i was defending tha US record on drones. that aint right coz i already said i would join other folks in condemning double tapping if its proven policy.



Rule -> RE: Does it bother anyone else the Boston terrorist is 19? (5/3/2013 6:03:35 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
Can you see from the above one way in which terrorists are made?

I do not care. Terrorists by definition are losers. Kill them and their male relatives and the nonsense will stop soon enough.



Aswad -> RE: Does it bother anyone else the Boston terrorist is 19? (5/3/2013 6:29:11 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: WantsOfTheFlesh

it was a terrible thing killing 47 civilians but even tha afghan government that isnt shy of criticizing tha US said tha taliban were fighting tha allies at tha time


26 insurgents, 23 children, 10 women and 4 men were killed, 27 people were injured and the building was destroyed.

First off, forget the Karzai government. Shah Wali Kot is a strictly Pashtun district of Kandahar province. They were not allowed to vote in the election. Karzai not only doesn't represent them, they are not accorded representation at all, being subhuman according to the ethnic group we have allied ourselves with in Afghanistan. The ANA doesn't care about the civilian casualties for the same reason, i.e. the status of the targets as subhuman.

Even Karzai criticized the strike harshly, noting that it would be seriously detrimental to stability in the region and cause further support for the Taliban and other armed insurgent groups in the area, and like most non-Pashtuns, he doesn't give a shit about Pashtuns in the first place.

As for radicalization, one of the two main tribal groups in the district consists of Mujahadeen veterans of the war with the Soviet Union, which the US radicalized and trained in the first place, before the Soviets hardened them, then the attack on Afghanistan gave the veterans cause to raise a new generation of Mujahadeen for the new war, and the occupation brought others to the cause, which it continues to do due to the War on Drugs. I'm sure you're aware most of the district made its living growing opium poppies. The US took that away without giving them anything else, so now they're not making a living anymore.

Starvation and war keeps them radicalized now. They have nothing else.

Well, except weddings and other moments of happiness, right?

quote:

they also said tha taliban deliberately fight from villages as a pr tactic.


Yes, they do fight from their homes. That's where they live. That's where the enemy is. Where else would they fight?

quote:

tweaks tho ya talk bout tha outrage "we all feel at the perpetrators of the Boston atrocity" they r just words i doubt ya mean coz ya then justify tha attitudes of folks who make those attacks by asking would they be drawing distinctions "between military and civilian targets" & would tha outrage b any less real there in pakistan wit civilians being killed.


The point is precisely that both sides feel the same outrage over real events and both sides respond with vengeance.

As a sidebar, the attacks in Afghanistan were part of the reason for the Boston attacks.

IWYW,
— Aswad.




tweakabelle -> RE: Does it bother anyone else the Boston terrorist is 19? (5/3/2013 6:32:08 AM)

quote:

can ya not see radicalization is tha consequence of terrorism & thats taught morre than as experienced?

I have no idea what you are trying to say here. Could you please explain it, prefereably in standard English? It seems like you are claiming that "radicalization is tha consequence of terrorism", which, if accurate, is the opposite of most accounts and sounds counter intuitive to say the least.

Nor do I have any idea what"[terrorism is] taught morre than as experienced" means. It might be that you are suggesting terrorism is whipped up by firebrand ideologues, not caused by actual events and people's experiences but that's purely a guess.



Aswad -> RE: Does it bother anyone else the Boston terrorist is 19? (5/3/2013 6:33:40 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

I do not care. Terrorists by definition are losers. Kill them and their male relatives and the nonsense will stop soon enough.


That tactic has been tried. It doesn't work. Disappointing to continuously see this drivel after being told what to look into.

IWYW,
— Aswad.




Rule -> RE: Does it bother anyone else the Boston terrorist is 19? (5/3/2013 7:05:23 AM)

I am not aware that it has been tried.

Anyway, in war when being on the losing hand, there usually are only two options: surrender or die.

If there is terrorism, i.e. a refusal to surrender, then the proportional response may be anywhere from a police investigation to a military action.

Hm, the Romans were wont to require hostages from the populations who had surrendered to them.

Similarly, many of the courtiers at medieval courts were de facto hostages for the behavior of their relatives.



vincentML -> RE: Does it bother anyone else the Boston terrorist is 19? (5/3/2013 8:01:30 AM)

quote:

you & others also forget many folks there see tha consequences of radicalization in tha taliban & some folks there even welcome tha drone strikes.

Now, you're just making this shit up.



vincentML -> RE: Does it bother anyone else the Boston terrorist is 19? (5/3/2013 8:08:24 AM)

quote:

If there is terrorism, i.e. a refusal to surrender, then the proportional response may be anywhere from a police investigation to a military action.

Organized terror is an instrument of asymmetrical war and does not reflect a belief of being on the losing side. The partisans organized terror against the Nazis as a tactic toward victory. These two in Boston may or may not have been part of a greater organized plot. If not it would be interesting to know the mind set that led them to identify as opponents of the West. Losers in their planning and tactics without doubt. Not sure they were losers in their ideology. Amateurs tho, no doubt.



Extravagasm -> RE: Does it bother anyone else the Boston terrorist is 19? (5/3/2013 8:25:13 AM)

quote:

vincentML: it would be interesting to know the mind set that led them to identify as opponents of the West.

If you're really interested, investigate the US boxing association fraud that was perpetrated on one of them, destroying his lifetime dreams.
[No I don't have links, only heard pieces, when the media has tried to downplay this part as inconsistent with the picture they're wedded to. It could be traced down, if you try.]



Rule -> RE: Does it bother anyone else the Boston terrorist is 19? (5/3/2013 9:02:22 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Extravagasm
investigate the US boxing association fraud that was perpetrated on one of them, destroying his lifetime dreams.

It could be traced down, if you try.

I have tried, but could not find anything; except the controversial decision by some judges to award a fight to an opponent.

Most significant I thought a remark by another boxer, which went something like: "He had power and was aggressive, but he was without talent."



vincentML -> RE: Does it bother anyone else the Boston terrorist is 19? (5/3/2013 9:40:56 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Extravagasm

quote:

vincentML: it would be interesting to know the mind set that led them to identify as opponents of the West.

If you're really interested, investigate the US boxing association fraud that was perpetrated on one of them, destroying his lifetime dreams.
[No I don't have links, only heard pieces, when the media has tried to downplay this part as inconsistent with the picture they're wedded to. It could be traced down, if you try.]

I am aware of the story. But, yanno, we all face personal disappointments which may leave us bitter. It seems a big jump from there to murderous actions.



Politesub53 -> RE: Does it bother anyone else the Boston terrorist is 19? (5/3/2013 12:03:22 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: WantsOfTheFlesh

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Speaking of rhetoric. I didnt say you were happy with drone attacks , as shown by my bolded comment.

ya suggested i was ok wit double tapping when ya asked "are attacks on rescuers permissable" coz i was defending tha US record on drones. that aint right coz i already said i would join other folks in condemning double tapping if its proven policy.


Asking a question of you isnt suggesting anything. its obvious though that you see double taps as insignificant and without consequence.

As I posted a few pages ago, double taps will do more harm than good to Americas cause because they alienate the ordinary population.



WantsOfTheFlesh -> RE: Does it bother anyone else the Boston terrorist is 19? (5/3/2013 1:40:59 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad
quote:

ORIGINAL: WantsOfTheFlesh
it was a terrible thing killing 47 civilians but even tha afghan government that isnt shy of criticizing tha US said tha taliban were fighting tha allies at tha time

26 insurgents, 23 children, 10 women and 4 men were killed, 27 people were injured and the building was destroyed.

yr point is?

quote:


First off, forget the Karzai government. Shah Wali Kot is a strictly Pashtun district of Kandahar province. They were not allowed to vote in the election. Karzai not only doesn't represent them, they are not accorded representation at all, being subhuman according to the ethnic group we have allied ourselves with in Afghanistan. The ANA doesn't care about the civilian casualties for the same reason, i.e. the status of the targets as subhuman.

thats a pure lie. shah wali kot is one of loadsa pashtun areas in kandahar. kandahars karzai's home province. kandahar was a big issue in tha election coz tha taliban tried to stop folks voting there & killed a large number over it coz a lot of it was under insurgent control at tha time.

quote:

like most non-Pashtuns, he doesn't give a shit about Pashtuns in the first place.

yr making this shit up. karzai is pashtuni & proud: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamid_Karzai#Personal_and_tribal_lineage

quote:

As for radicalization, one of the two main tribal groups in the district consists of Mujahadeen veterans of the war with the Soviet Union, which the US radicalized and trained in the first place, before the Soviets hardened them, then the attack on Afghanistan gave the veterans cause to raise a new generation of Mujahadeen for the new war, and the occupation brought others to the cause, which it continues to do due to the War on Drugs. I'm sure you're aware most of the district made its living growing opium poppies. The US took that away without giving them anything else, so now they're not making a living anymore.

dude yr making this shit up. tha taliban was started by pakistans secret service tha isi. aint tha same as tha mujahadeen.

tha US didnt radicalize tha mujahadeen. they gave 'em arms after they had already rebelled against tha soviets.

tha taliban banned poppy cultivation way back at tha end of tha 90s not tha US.

quote:

quote:

they also said tha taliban deliberately fight from villages as a pr tactic.

Yes, they do fight from their homes. That's where they live. That's where the enemy is. Where else would they fight?

nah, tha taliban arent some sorta informal militia of locals. they draw fighting to villages & use human shileds. its been well reported & a bigger part of their startegy http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,586263,00.html



WantsOfTheFlesh -> RE: Does it bother anyone else the Boston terrorist is 19? (5/3/2013 1:46:17 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53
quote:

ORIGINAL: WantsOfTheFlesh
quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53
Speaking of rhetoric. I didnt say you were happy with drone attacks , as shown by my bolded comment.

ya suggested i was ok wit double tapping when ya asked "are attacks on rescuers permissable" coz i was defending tha US record on drones. that aint right coz i already said i would join other folks in condemning double tapping if its proven policy.

Asking a question of you isnt suggesting anything. its obvious though that you see double taps as insignificant and without consequence.

As I posted a few pages ago, double taps will do more harm than good to Americas cause because they alienate the ordinary population.

i already said double taps aint right so you asking if i thought attacks on rescuers was permissible was a rhetorical device not a serious question.

i do not see double taps as insignificant r without consequence. if they r proven policy i would condemn them also like i said to ya already. [X(]



WantsOfTheFlesh -> RE: Does it bother anyone else the Boston terrorist is 19? (5/3/2013 1:50:15 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
quote:

you & others also forget many folks there see tha consequences of radicalization in tha taliban & some folks there even welcome tha drone strikes.

Now, you're just making this shit up.

see this is tha problem with tha debate on afghanistan & pakistan in tha west. its dominated by anti war ideologues. if it werent ya would have heard a major percentage of tha pakistani population is ok wit em. if ya want cites i can give.



WantsOfTheFlesh -> RE: Does it bother anyone else the Boston terrorist is 19? (5/3/2013 1:55:20 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
quote:

can ya not see radicalization is tha consequence of terrorism & thats taught morre than as experienced?

I have no idea what you are trying to say here. Could you please explain it, prefereably in standard English? It seems like you are claiming that "radicalization is tha consequence of terrorism", which, if accurate, is the opposite of most accounts and sounds counter intuitive to say the least.

yup tweaks it was tha wrong way around.

quote:

Nor do I have any idea what"[terrorism is] taught morre than as experienced" means. It might be that you are suggesting terrorism is whipped up by firebrand ideologues, not caused by actual events and people's experiences but that's purely a guess.

so tweaks radicalization is taught & tweaks i gave ya examples like all tha terrorists exported from saudi arabia that were radicalized by tha brotherhood not by war.



Aswad -> RE: Does it bother anyone else the Boston terrorist is 19? (5/3/2013 4:48:08 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: WantsOfTheFlesh

yr point is?


Twofold: accuracy, and the notability of 23 children killed, in terms of understanding local reactions.

quote:

thats a pure lie. shah wali kot is one of loadsa pashtun areas in kandahar.


Correct, Kandahar is primarily Pashtun territory; how is that a lie?

quote:

kandahar was a big issue in tha election coz tha taliban tried to stop folks voting there & killed a large number over it coz a lot of it was under insurgent control at tha time.


More like the ANA wasn't interested in sticking their necks out to ensure votes for lesser citizens.

quote:

yr making this shit up. karzai is pashtuni & proud


You're right, I made an embarassing mistake in mixing up data from two sources. I should've checked. Mea culpa.

That said, a lot of Pashtun do not seem to count him as Pashtun-friendly, the corruption level is insane, and he's been consistently deferring the concerns of Pashtuns elsewhere. Also, as noted, in several places, Pashtun have been prevented from voting, and the ANA has not made it a priority, for the reasons stated earlier.

quote:

dude yr making this shit up. tha taliban was started by pakistans secret service tha isi. aint tha same as tha mujahadeen.


The Taliban were supported by the ISI, certainly, though not started by them, as far as I can recall.

But what does the Taliban have to do with what I said?

quote:

tha US didnt radicalize tha mujahadeen. they gave 'em arms after they had already rebelled against tha soviets.


That's an interesting interpretation of history.

quote:

tha taliban banned poppy cultivation way back at tha end of tha 90s not tha US.


Yup. And they got quite a bit of flak from the other, similar organizations in the country over that. The "and your family, too" kind of flak. We continued the policy.

quote:

nah, tha taliban arent some sorta informal militia of locals.


Why are you constantly getting back to the Taliban?

They're one of several such groups in Afghanistan.

Just because it's popular to call every Afghani combattant Taliban doesn't make it so.

quote:

they draw fighting to villages & use human shileds. its been well reported & a bigger part of their startegy


Of course it's part of their strategy to use a moral shield. They also happen to live there.

Fox News isn't a source, incidentally, so I'm not sure why you included a link to them.

IWYW,
— Aswad.



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