RE: Does it bother anyone else the Boston terrorist is 19? (Full Version)

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PeonForHer -> RE: Does it bother anyone else the Boston terrorist is 19? (4/30/2013 3:10:54 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

But besides those relative 'evils' there also is absolute evil - and I judge that that ball is entirely in their court.



And they'd judge the ball is in our court, of course . . . .

And so it goes on.




Aswad -> RE: Does it bother anyone else the Boston terrorist is 19? (4/30/2013 4:08:11 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: WantsOfTheFlesh

punishment is a whole big part of justice & deterence against injustice tho some folks naively thunk otherwise.


The naïveté lies in conflating deterrence, justice, injustice, punishment, vengeance and other entities.

Punishment is a leaf node in any rational tree of public management, not a branch.

IWYW,
— Aswad.





Marini -> RE: Does it bother anyone else the Boston terrorist is 19? (4/30/2013 4:13:03 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: NotSoNormalGuy

To the original topic - the only thing that bothers me about this terrorist's age is that he will probably see another birthday or two. I, personally, would be delighted if he didn't make 20.
Enigma


I think many people feel this way, and as I stated I don't think his age should be a factor in his sentencing.
It's funny that it often is a factor, in lesser crimes.
hummmmmm




WantsOfTheFlesh -> RE: Does it bother anyone else the Boston terrorist is 19? (4/30/2013 4:16:53 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad
quote:

ORIGINAL: WantsOfTheFlesh
punishment is a whole big part of justice & deterence against injustice tho some folks naively thunk otherwise.

The naïveté lies in conflating deterrence, justice, injustice, punishment, vengeance and other entities.

thats just talking jive dude & vengence is a different thang to punishment. punishment in justice needs to be balanced & impartial.

quote:


Punishment is a leaf node in any rational tree of public management, not a branch.

nah its at least a big branch if not tha trunk.




WantsOfTheFlesh -> RE: Does it bother anyone else the Boston terrorist is 19? (4/30/2013 4:20:13 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53
Peon, the van helping the wounded gets attacked around the nine minute mark.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newsvideo/7558741/US-military-video-showing-2007-Apache-attack-on-Iraqi-civilians-posted-on-YouTube-Full-video.html

tha military did a report round tha time of tha incident http://mypetjawa.mu.nu/archives/201889.php [bottom of page]




PeonForHer -> RE: Does it bother anyone else the Boston terrorist is 19? (4/30/2013 4:45:38 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: WantsOfTheFlesh

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad
quote:

ORIGINAL: WantsOfTheFlesh
punishment is a whole big part of justice & deterence against injustice tho some folks naively thunk otherwise.

The naïveté lies in conflating deterrence, justice, injustice, punishment, vengeance and other entities.

thats just talking jive dude & vengence is a different thang to punishment. punishment in justice needs to be balanced & impartial.



If you don't understand something that Aswad has said, Wants, you only have to ask for clarification. I don't think he'd mind.




Aswad -> RE: Does it bother anyone else the Boston terrorist is 19? (4/30/2013 4:52:01 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

I am sorry, Aswad, but all of that simply is not true for most people.


Then "most people" should effin' step back and leave it to the same folks that dragged them kicking and screaming out of the Stone Age.

IWYW,
— Aswad.




WantsOfTheFlesh -> RE: Does it bother anyone else the Boston terrorist is 19? (4/30/2013 4:57:11 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad
quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule
I am sorry, Aswad, but all of that simply is not true for most people.

Then "most people" should effin' step back and leave it to the same folks that dragged them kicking and screaming out of the Stone Age.

yup tha accidental(?) discovery of melding copper & tin made a big ole difference.




Aswad -> RE: Does it bother anyone else the Boston terrorist is 19? (4/30/2013 5:37:06 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: WantsOfTheFlesh

thats just talking jive dude & vengence is a different thang to punishment. punishment in justice needs to be balanced & impartial.


At the risk of sounding condescending, «the thing about smart motherfuckers is, they sound like crazy motherfuckers to stupid motherfuckers.» The corollary to which is, if you don't get something, then the nuances of it will sound like «just talking jive», even when they're actually quite crucial.

Peon is right, I would've been happy to explain, if you hadn't gotten snippy with him and dismissive with me.

quote:

nah its at least a big branch if not tha trunk.


That's the sort of attitude the quote I mentioned earlier was about. Nietzsche, who isn't exactly a bleeding heart sort of fellow, feels that people who consider punishment the trunk of the tree of public management are of poor stock, which I've tried to be more polite and nuanced about. Believe it or not, I'm both less verbose and more explicatorial than him.

Rational public management is evidence based. The evidence is clear that a punishment centric approach is suboptimal, and the evidence is getting fairly solid that punishment is also not a very cost effective deterrent. The role of a State in regard to law is precisely rational public management (which, incidentally, is why I consider it important for principled aspects- how the State relates to a Citizen and vice versa- to be codified in a manner that strongly restricts the solution domain the State may employ), and this excludes indulging the masses in their own worst impulses (they can do so on their own; it's just not the job of the State).

Why do we try to understand, if not to change? And where does change begin, if not in ourselves?

«When might turns to Grace and reveals itself, such revelation I call beauty. And from none do I more desire righteous beauty than from you, the masters. Let your goodness be your final self-mastery. All malice do I ascribe to you, therefore I want good from you. Truly, I've often laughed at those that think themselves good, merely because they have no claws.» [my translation, from the German]

I'm not laughing, even if the pawing doesn't leave any marks.

IWYW,
— Aswad.

EDIT: "discipline" → "self-mastery"




PeonForHer -> RE: Does it bother anyone else the Boston terrorist is 19? (4/30/2013 6:05:11 PM)

quote:


That's the sort of attitude the quote I mentioned earlier was about. Nietzsche, who isn't exactly a bleeding heart sort of fellow, feels that people who consider punishment the trunk of the tree of public management are of poor stock, which I've tried to be more polite and nuanced about. Believe it or not, I'm both less verbose and more explicatorial than him.

Rational public management is evidence based. The evidence is clear that a punishment centric approach is suboptimal, and the evidence is getting fairly solid that punishment is also not a very cost effective deterrent. The role of a State in regard to law is precisely rational public management (which, incidentally, is why I consider it important for principled aspects- how the State relates to a Citizen and vice versa- to be codified in a manner that strongly restricts the solution domain the State may employ), and this excludes indulging the masses in their own worst impulses (they can do so on their own; it's just not the job of the State).

Why do we try to understand, if not to change? And where does change begin, if not in ourselves?

«When might turns to Grace and reveals itself, such revelation I call beauty. And from none do I more desire righteous beauty than from you, the masters. Let your goodness be your final discipline. All malice do I ascribe to you, therefore I want good from you. Truly, I've often laughed at those that think themselves good, merely because they have no claws.» [my translation, from the German]

I'm not laughing, even if the pawing doesn't leave any marks.



I begin to wonder what the point is, Aswad, seriously. There's always going to be a contingent here that'll carry on intimating, as heavily as it takes to shut up their opponents, that anyone whose 'analysis' isn't based solidly on a "catch 'em, punish 'em, job done and that'll teach 'em" theme is just a liberal, USA-hating pansy.

The Islamist terror issue facing the USA now is far worse than anything the UK had to face with the Irish paramilitaries - we're not just talking of different islands, though with a majorly-shared history, culture, religion and language; we're talking of enemies that might as well come from different planets entirely. And the hatred involved makes the IRA's antipathy towards their Brit oppressors look almost finger-wagging-tut-tut by comparison.

Well, no doubt this is yet more evidence of my supposed view that Americans are a bunch of stupid yee-hah cowboys. But fuck it. The truth is that I would just suggest that the USA not follow the same route with their current terrorist threat as the UK did for decades on end with the Irish Republicans. It was miserable for all of us. I would not recommend it.





Aswad -> RE: Does it bother anyone else the Boston terrorist is 19? (4/30/2013 6:25:08 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: WantsOfTheFlesh

yup tha accidental(?) discovery of melding copper & tin made a big ole difference.


Everything is lucky/unlucky, accidental/serendipituous or blessing/magic/curse to the people to whom shit happens all the time for no discernible reason, and to the people that can't make heads or tails of the world around them. To the rest of us, the world makes sense, most of the time, and when it doesn't, we can usually figure out what we've missed and it starts making sense again.

People probably "accidentally" "discovered" copper and tin a million times.

Then someone discovered it.

IWYW,
— Aswad.





WantsOfTheFlesh -> RE: Does it bother anyone else the Boston terrorist is 19? (4/30/2013 6:31:11 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad
Guess what, we're human beings. We've gone from hunting and gathering, cowering from the elements and succumbing to illness and injury, to having sprawling cities of millions, chemically synthesizing fertilizers to supply food that nature doesn't produce for us, treating inborn conditions, transplanting organs, altering our own genes, living in buildings that can withstand earthquakes, setting our feet on the Moon, splitting the atom and probing the very nature of reality itself.

That, right there, is a testament to what makes us the apex predator:

We make sense of our environment, and then we rearrange it into what we want it to be, dammit!

I am sorry, Aswad, but all of that simply is not true for most people. Granted that every being with some kind of nervous system tries to make sense of its environment, but it always does so within the limits that such a nervous system allows. Even I, a low IQ supergenius, have my limits.

been postulated most of tha major inventions were almost purely accidental in tha early days wit repetition of circumstance. tha true use of new objects in bronze & whatnot were in tha refinements over centuries r longer.

quote:


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad
Stop trying to throw that out over simplistic notions of good and evil. If you can't make sense of it, then frickin' step back and let those of us that can, do, instead of aggravating the problem with an emotional refusal to understand that these are regular people we're dealing with, not much different from you and I.

Those are bold assertments.

But the crux of the matter is of course is 'how much' are they 'not much different from you and I'?

Let me first establish that my mind is nothing like yours: our psychologies differ like day and night. So if they are not much different from you, then they are extremely different from me - and vice versa.

Again: how much is 'not much'? We will not know until we scan their brain activity and compare it with yours. And what about the oxygen consumption of their brain compared with yours? Is it equal? Even if corrected for body mass? What if it differs say half a percent?

You may very well be correct that there is not much difference between them and you - but it is a difference that counts.

What will you do when your girlfriend falls in love with someone else and gets pregnant by him? Will you cut her throat? Burn her to death? Bury her alive? Drown her? Throw stones at her until she dies? Since you claim that there is not much difference between them and you, may I then assume that your answer to all those questions is 'Yes, I will'?

"not much" is a great deal of much. tha action of mowing down civilian folks without provocation is massively out of tha ordinary. beyond tha pale even compared to serious crime.

interesting theres supposed to be no causal connection between terrorism & mental illness but after major terrorist attacks societies have big deteoriations in mental health




WantsOfTheFlesh -> RE: Does it bother anyone else the Boston terrorist is 19? (4/30/2013 6:48:17 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer
I begin to wonder what the point is, Aswad, seriously. There's always going to be a contingent here that'll carry on intimating, as heavily as it takes to shut up their opponents, that anyone whose 'analysis' isn't based solidly on a "catch 'em, punish 'em, job done and that'll teach 'em" theme is just a liberal, USA-hating pansy.

thats a good example of tha strawman bs you & aswad specially have addictions to. no one is trying to silence other folks but ya seem to have some sorta victim mentality when a few people express a sense of anger at tha major efforts to relativize & diminish tha extent of tha barbaric crimes perpetuated on innocent families including children & infants. thats free expression bud. toughen up & deal wit it. its kinda ironic ya moan bout that when ya started making jibes at me on tha threads. was that to silence opposition to yr views?

quote:


The Islamist terror issue facing the USA now is far worse than anything the UK had to face with the Irish paramilitaries - we're not just talking of different islands, though with a majorly-shared history, culture, religion and language; we're talking of enemies that might as well come from different planets entirely. And the hatred involved makes the IRA's antipathy towards their Brit oppressors look almost finger-wagging-tut-tut by comparison.

Well, no doubt this is yet more evidence of my supposed view that Americans are a bunch of stupid yee-hah cowboys. But fuck it. The truth is that I would just suggest that the USA not follow the same route with their current terrorist threat as the UK did for decades on end with the Irish Republicans. It was miserable for all of us. I would not recommend it.

first sensible thing i heard ya say probably ever peon. right to say tha islamist thread is other planet different but then ya go off track by assuming tha US should compromise just like tha uk did wit tha republicans.




Aswad -> RE: Does it bother anyone else the Boston terrorist is 19? (4/30/2013 6:58:54 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

I begin to wonder what the point is, Aswad, seriously.


The point is the hoops my mind has to jump through to try to bridge the gap, which is almost like teaching: you learn something new every time you process information in a new way. Well, that, and it's a public forum, so for every idiot posting, there's ten more idiots not posting and ten more non-idiots not posting. I write for the latter, a lot of the time, and usually at least try to keep them in mind.

quote:

The truth is that I would just suggest that the USA not follow the same route with their current terrorist threat as the UK did for decades on end with the Irish Republicans. It was miserable for all of us. I would not recommend it.


I agree, and that's my point, too.

I've never cared to point fingers and laugh. I care to spread hard won advice. But you know how it goes: those that fail to learn and understand are doomed to repeat avoidable mistakes. And usually call it "accidental" or whatever, between cycles. How many new mistakes one makes per unit time is a very good correlate of how much/fast one is learning, good enough to be a metric, but it's not the only way to learn. How many mistakes one insists on making for oneself instead of learning in other ways is a metric of stubbornness, which may or may not be a vice. How many times one repeats each mistake, however, is a pretty unambiguous metric of something else entirely. I bet you have a colorful word for it.

IWYW,
— Aswad.

P.S.: As a non-native speaker of English, I lack a word you might be able to help me with; is there one for that property of, or quality about, a person or thing which exasperates in an exhausting manner through no fault of that person or thing (i.e. not due to a shortcoming relative to the average of the standard to which it is natural to hold that person or thing)? If not, there should be.





Aswad -> RE: Does it bother anyone else the Boston terrorist is 19? (4/30/2013 7:01:16 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: WantsOfTheFlesh

[...] by assuming tha US should compromise just like tha uk did wit tha republicans.


I doubt it's possible to miss the point more severely or seriously than this.

IWYW,
— Aswad.

P.S.: No-compromise, like its cousin, zero tolerance (fundamentalism) is a marker of the mentality of hate and barbarism you call evil.





WantsOfTheFlesh -> RE: Does it bother anyone else the Boston terrorist is 19? (4/30/2013 7:32:46 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad
quote:

ORIGINAL: WantsOfTheFlesh
yup tha accidental(?) discovery of melding copper & tin made a big ole difference.

Everything is lucky/unlucky, accidental/serendipituous or blessing/magic/curse to the people to whom shit happens all the time for no discernible reason, and to the people that can't make heads or tails of the world around them. To the rest of us, the world makes sense, most of the time, and when it doesn't, we can usually figure out what we've missed and it starts making sense again.

People probably "accidentally" "discovered" copper and tin a million times.

Then someone discovered it.

has inane speculation been trademarked?




tweakabelle -> RE: Does it bother anyone else the Boston terrorist is 19? (4/30/2013 9:51:20 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53


quote:

ORIGINAL: WantsOfTheFlesh

i dont like drones much either but thats tha big ole moral divide between unintended consequences & deliberate ones that ya seem hell bent on erasing.


I have a major problem with the unintended consequences stance. Firing a missilee at a suspect in a car and hitting the passenger could be construed as unintended. Firing a missile at those going to help the wounded, as demonstrated in Iraq by the helicopter attack video posted on here, is entirely intended.

Killing the 16 year old son of a terrorist suspect, again posted in here, was also fully intended. One killing fully justified in my book, even if he was American, the other wasn`t. Lets not start suggesting otherwise.


In NW Pakistan, current US policy includes the use of 'double-tap' missile attacks. A second missile attack is launched a few minutes after the first, landing in exactly the same spot, with the intention of hitting those rescuing the victims of the first attack. There's no way that any one can claim "unintended consequences" here.

Targeting decisions are made by computer, using a program that assumes all males of military age are active militants. Any grouping of three or more adult males of military age is considered a terrorist meeting and a target.

'Unintended' consequences are so predictable that they cease to be unintended.

Is the rage that people feel against the Boston bombers any different to that someone in that region might feel towards the US?




Aswad -> RE: Does it bother anyone else the Boston terrorist is 19? (4/30/2013 10:39:27 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marini

I like this attempt at giving a compliment, can you both extend the olive branch now, and shake hands?


There's no conflict between me and WOTF here. We just have a difference of opinion.

quote:

I think you both have more in common than you realize.


I'll have to echo his sentiments here: I hope not, no offense intended.

quote:

I think if you ever meet, you would like each other.


Stranger things have happened.

quote:

I like to see people agree to disagree, and than discuss issues in a civil manner.


What's been uncivil about it?

Serious question. Playful banter aside, it's seemed quite civil to me, so far.

IWYW,
— Aswad.





Aswad -> RE: Does it bother anyone else the Boston terrorist is 19? (4/30/2013 10:46:13 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

In NW Pakistan, current US policy includes the use of 'double-tap' missile attacks.


Do you have a source for this being official policy?

I don't doubt it, I would just like to be able to use this point myself in the future.

Double tap attacks makes perfect strategic sense, since we know that e.g. Afghani fighters are very diligent about retrieving their dead and injured (whether to make it harder to assess effectiveness, for humanitarian or ethical reasons, or for morale). It's essentially a loophole in international law on warfare, a very close parallell of actively targetting the medical personell (which has been common in Afghanistan) or preferentially attacking female troops and support staff. Demoralizing and likely to cause useful secondary casualties (while also assuring lots of civilian losses).

Ethically, of course, it's somewhere between the basement and the bedrock.

IWYW,
— Aswad.





Rule -> RE: Does it bother anyone else the Boston terrorist is 19? (5/1/2013 1:42:02 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer
quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

But besides those relative 'evils' there also is absolute evil - and I judge that that ball is entirely in their court.


And they'd judge the ball is in our court, of course . . . .

And so it goes on.

That is the relative evil from their point of view.

Absolute evil is independent from a subjective point of view.




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