RE: Young Men and Mass Violence

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Rule -> RE: Young Men and Mass Violence (4/23/2013 10:47:47 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Aswad The proposal to allow poly marriage was only defeated because of concerns about immigrant populations and the difficulties in revising the tax code to take those households into account. It is good that it was defeated: when there is a shortage of fertile females, it pays in reproductive success for single men to start raping fertile females, especially if these rapists are at low risk of acquiring a sexually transmitted disease. And since males without a conscience - all other characteristics being equal - are more likely to rape than males with a conscience, the frequency of conscience alleles in their gene pool will decrease, resulting in a rise in the frequency of rapes, as well as a rise in other crimes.

Rule -> RE: Young Men and Mass Violence (4/23/2013 11:02:22 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Aswad If the new culture takes over, good for them. It'll be our fault for having facilitated our own demise. Cultures are a product of reproductive success. Thus by changing the conditions for reproductive success, within a few generations a different culture will evolve.

Zonie63 -> RE: Young Men and Mass Violence (4/24/2013 6:32:16 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess I really feel there is more in common with the above set of incidents than not. Disaffection can be experienced by people who grew up their whole lives here, or not. And in unstable, typically males, it often leads to violence. The above profile seems to fit whether one wants to attach the term "terrorism" to the acts or not. This is a really open-ended statement, but I am wondering if there are any other ways we, as a society, can effectively identify the young males who are at higher risk of committing mass violence before they start to really unravel? Why do young men sometimes end up feeling marginalized? Or, is the problem of disaffected youth simply part of human history? Something that will never go away and something that can never be controlled or channelled in more positive directions? There is a certain "rebel without a cause" aspect to all of the above - and, of course, in some cases, the rebels attach themselves to a cause, but only long after they've reached a certain breaking point. In other words, when there is a cause, it seems to come late in the game - not at the beginning, they are like "rebel searching for a cause". (I'm not advocating an end to anti-terrorism efforts - I am simply suggesting there might be another way to view all of the above acts). There could be any number of reasons for young men lashing out at society. I don't think it's really that much different from when I was young, or when my father was young (or his father). There have always been certain violent personality types who commit these kinds of acts. I can understand why young men would feel disaffected and angry. I still remember what it was like as a youth. I'm reminded of the literary concept known as the "Superfluous Man." I think men have a certain inherent need to feel productive, useful, and needed, and if they are somehow convinced that they are useless and unneeded, then they might start to become more unstable and unpredictable. It could even be exacerbated if they were abused or neglected in childhood, which seems to be an all too common malady in our society. I don't know if there's any foolproof method of identifying those at risk before they start to unravel. Perhaps more attention and funding towards mental health and social services might be a step in the right direction, but the kinds of people who might be at risk for mass violence may not be inclined to avail themselves of such services. Even if they do, they'll have to wait in a long line and put up with a ton of bureaucratic nonsense before they ever get any kind of "help." For a man, it may be considered weak if he has to ask for help. A man doesn't want to appear as weak, he wants to appear strong. Somehow, within a twisted, amoral mindset, the conclusion is reached that it's preferable to kill a bunch of people rather than ask for help, which probably won't be forthcoming anyway. From that point of view, he might already feel rejected and despised by society, so he might reason that if society is going to hate him anyway, he'd rather be hated for being a monster - something to be feared - rather than as a weakling, something to scorn and ridicule. That may be why people bully others; because they figure everyone is going to hate them anyway - might as well give them a good reason to. I suppose if there are ways of channeling these energies into something more positive, then it would involve finding ways of making them feel productive, needed, and useful. A man still wants to feel like a man, but it can get somewhat confusing and overwhelming out there for some guys. Trying to deal with the complexities and some of the BS in our society can be a bit daunting, especially for younger people who are still learning to cope with things - the temptation to just say "fuck this shit" is pretty strong.

Rule -> RE: Young Men and Mass Violence (4/24/2013 6:56:05 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Zonie63 within a twisted, amoral mindset Quite: due to the lack of a conscience.

vincentML -> RE: Young Men and Mass Violence (4/24/2013 7:14:02 AM)
quote: I suppose if there are ways of channeling these energies into something more positive, then it would involve finding ways of making them feel productive, needed, and useful. A man still wants to feel like a man, but it can get somewhat confusing and overwhelming out there for some guys. Trying to deal with the complexities and some of the BS in our society can be a bit daunting, especially for younger people who are still learning to cope with things - the temptation to just say "fuck this shit" is pretty strong. Both of these guys had useful, productive avenues open to them. In some cases that is not enough obviously. The older brother, from reports, went over the deep end with Jihad indoctrination through video propaganda and visiting his homeland. And then he walked straight at the Watertown cops with blazing guns. Really aberrent behavior. Seems he was really caught up in the fantasy of his heroic crusade. Can't imagine we have any social intervention that would distract such determined action.

vincentML -> RE: Young Men and Mass Violence (4/24/2013 7:26:30 AM)
quote: Norway is a pretty progressive place in a lot of regards. We have LGBT marriage. The proposal to allow poly marriage was only defeated because of concerns about immigrant populations and the difficulties in revising the tax code to take those households into account. Pot is essentially legal to use. Women have equal rights and then some. Discrimination, except on the basis of weight, is illegal and on the way out. Elective abortion is essentially free, except sex selective (a matter of immigrant populations, again). Kink is not a disease (though male doms should take care, as the consent laws have been seriously skewed). Prison is focused on rehabilitation. Education is free. And so forth. Violence is rare, the homicide rates are next to nothing, and recidivism rates are in the single digit percents if you exclude (you guessed it) immigrants. Sounds wonderful.[:)] quote: But if an LGBT couple takes a stroll down the streets where Sunni ghettos have formed, then politeness extends as far as usually giving them a "warning" before enforcing the local standards of propriety with violence. Standards the rest of us don't share. In the worst places, an unmarried couple holding hands may be subject to reprisals. A boy was stabbed here, in school, for asking a girl if she had a spare pencil. Turns out she "belonged" to a Middle Eastern fellow, so talking to her was unacceptable. Such incidents are rare, but mostly because everyone gets the message: you follow Sunni customs when you're in Sunni territory. I won't even get into the subject of rape; mostly because it's a huge, nuanced subject. OMG! Sounds awful.[:'(] Saddened to read this about Norway. But not an isolated case in Europe, is it?

Rule -> RE: Young Men and Mass Violence (4/24/2013 8:09:11 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML Saddened to read this about Norway. But not an isolated case in Europe, is it? I suspect that it is only the industrial managers and the politicians that want these Muslims in our European countries. I suspect that the autochtonous peoples of these countries - except for a number of bleeding hearts - do not want them here.

vincentML -> RE: Young Men and Mass Violence (4/24/2013 9:41:19 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Rule quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML Saddened to read this about Norway. But not an isolated case in Europe, is it? I suspect that it is only the industrial managers and the politicians that want these Muslims in our European countries. I suspect that the autochtonous peoples of these countries - except for a number of bleeding hearts - do not want them here. I suspect you are correct. Same is true in Italy, France, Germany, England, and your Netherlands, innit?

Politesub53 -> RE: Young Men and Mass Violence (4/24/2013 3:58:36 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Rule quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML Saddened to read this about Norway. But not an isolated case in Europe, is it? I suspect that it is only the industrial managers and the politicians that want these Muslims in our European countries. I suspect that the autochtonous peoples of these countries - except for a number of bleeding hearts - do not want them here. I suspect you are just spouting off again. There is no call in the UK for ordinary Muslims to be sent home, this is their home.

vincentML -> RE: Young Men and Mass Violence (4/24/2013 7:57:50 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 quote: ORIGINAL: Rule quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML Saddened to read this about Norway. But not an isolated case in Europe, is it? I suspect that it is only the industrial managers and the politicians that want these Muslims in our European countries. I suspect that the autochtonous peoples of these countries - except for a number of bleeding hearts - do not want them here. I suspect you are just spouting off again. There is no call in the UK for ordinary Muslims to be sent home, this is their home. Curious how well assimilated the Muslims are in UK. Are they more integrated into your neighborhoods than was described for Norway? I have read your police have a model reach out program to their communities. Is there no conflict then as there seems to be in France, say?

tweakabelle -> RE: Young Men and Mass Violence (4/25/2013 12:46:49 AM)
quote: For a man, it may be considered weak if he has to ask for help. A man doesn't want to appear as weak, he wants to appear strong. Somehow, within a twisted, amoral mindset, the conclusion is reached that it's preferable to kill a bunch of people rather than ask for help, which probably won't be forthcoming anyway. From that point of view, he might already feel rejected and despised by society, so he might reason that if society is going to hate him anyway, he'd rather be hated for being a monster - something to be feared - rather than as a weakling, something to scorn and ridicule. That may be why people bully others; because they figure everyone is going to hate them anyway - might as well give them a good reason to. I suppose if there are ways of channeling these energies into something more positive, then it would involve finding ways of making them feel productive, needed, and useful. A good place to start might be to stop instilling outdated and obsolete notions of masculinity into young boys' minds. Most young males are introduced to the 'warrior' myth, and are taught that these are appropriate role models for them. Their toys are war toys, their stories, comics and media are filled with 'action' heroes saving the world from evil, their sports are taught as "substitutes for war" that reward violence and aggression. Whatever use this myth may have had in the past, is it appropriate to encourage it in a society that has left cave dwelling far behind it? From infancy boys are trained to suppress their feelings and emotions, that expressing these feelings and emotions is (heaven forbid!) unmanly. How can we expect troubled youths to reach out for help when all their lives they have been trained to do the precise opposite? We fill them with the false notion that the very act of reaching out is unmanly, that the feelings and emotions they need to address and talk through are not for sharing, that 'real men' just "grin and bear it" ~~stupidly~~stoically. It ought not come as a total surprise then to see that most violence is committed by young males When violence is taught as an acceptable conflict resolution mechanism, it is going to be used as conflict resolution mechanism.

Rule -> RE: Young Men and Mass Violence (4/25/2013 1:54:04 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle A good place to start might be to stop instilling outdated and obsolete notions of masculinity into young boys' minds. Most young males are introduced to the 'warrior' myth, and are taught that these are appropriate role models for them. Their toys are war toys, their stories, comics and media are filled with 'action' heroes saving the world from evil, their sports are taught as "substitutes for war" that reward violence and aggression. Whatever use this myth may have had in the past, is it appropriate to encourage it in a society that has left cave dwelling far behind it? From infancy boys are trained to suppress their feelings and emotions, that expressing these feelings and emotions is (heaven forbid!) unmanly. How can we expect troubled youths to reach out for help when all their lives they have been trained to do the precise opposite? We fill them with the false notion that the very act of reaching out is unmanly, that the feelings and emotions they need to address and talk through are not for sharing, that 'real men' just "grin and bear it" ~~stupidly~~stoically. It ought not come as a total surprise then to see that most violence is committed by young males When violence is taught as an acceptable conflict resolution mechanism, it is going to be used as conflict resolution mechanism. What a lot of nonsense! Most men of Christian descend are non-violent. But also: most men of Christian descend are not slaves. Your greatest error, though, is that you reason from the false premisse that all people that are alive today are as modern and of as advanced evolution as most people of Christian descend are. That is not true: there are whole populations of insensitive savages and other primitives and they are no less savage just because they wear clothes and have an iPhone. Many Muslims are such savages and primitives. As an example some excerpts: quote: In December 1945, an Egyptian peasant named Muhammad Ali Samman and his brother wandered away from their village in central Egypt, hoping to scoop up a few buckets of soft dirt to fertilize his crops. Digging next to a large boulder, Muhammad Ali found a mysterious earthenware jar about 3 feet tall. He and his brother backed away from it, worrying that it might contain a genie. Then, on further reflection, they considered that it might contain gold, and they smashed it apart The cache of papyrus had lain there for the previous 1,600 years, undisturbed in the Egyptian desert, holding some of deepest mysteries of early Christianity. It was a “secret” gospel, hidden away by monks from the nearby St. Pachomius monastery, probably to preserve them from other Christian sects. In the early, formative days of Christianity, monastic commissars hunted down unorthodox readings of the life of Jesus and burned them, sometimes along with their authors. (The same process occurred in early Islam, when Caliph Omar ordered the elimination of variant versions of the Koran. Reluctant heterodox Muslims, like their Christian counterparts, squirreled away fragments of alternate readings.) Muhammad Ali took the 13 papyrus scrolls home, where his illiterate mother used bits of them as kindling, incinerating many hundreds of doctoral dissertations worth of manuscript in a matter of days. when Muhammad Ali found the urn, he had murder on his mind. Not long before, a man named Ahmed Ismail killed Muhammad’s father. Muhammad and his brother were plotting revenge. Not long after the find, Muhammad and his brother slayed their father’s murderer with the same picks they used to free the scriptures from their jar. They tore the poor man limb from limb, then ate his heart. I must assume that if such a treasure is found by a random person, then that person is representative of nearly his whole population; and not an exception.

Politesub53 -> RE: Young Men and Mass Violence (4/25/2013 3:22:02 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML Curious how well assimilated the Muslims are in UK. Are they more integrated into your neighborhoods than was described for Norway? I have read your police have a model reach out program to their communities. Is there no conflict then as there seems to be in France, say? Some areas have become mainly Muslim, just as some areas of New York became mostly Irish or Italian. Historically immigrants tend to move to where their own kind are, more to do with having the same language and culture. If you take a City like Bradford, most of the Muslims are Pakistani, while in Birmingham most are Kashmiri. I think that illustrates the point neatly. Generally and historically speaking people are welcomed with open arms in the UK. The current fear over immigration from Eastern Europe is more to do with resources, or should I say lack of them, than culture. We recognise that many Muslims here, are as British as the rest of us, having been born here.

Zonie63 -> RE: Young Men and Mass Violence (4/25/2013 6:13:32 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle quote: For a man, it may be considered weak if he has to ask for help. A man doesn't want to appear as weak, he wants to appear strong. Somehow, within a twisted, amoral mindset, the conclusion is reached that it's preferable to kill a bunch of people rather than ask for help, which probably won't be forthcoming anyway. From that point of view, he might already feel rejected and despised by society, so he might reason that if society is going to hate him anyway, he'd rather be hated for being a monster - something to be feared - rather than as a weakling, something to scorn and ridicule. That may be why people bully others; because they figure everyone is going to hate them anyway - might as well give them a good reason to. I suppose if there are ways of channeling these energies into something more positive, then it would involve finding ways of making them feel productive, needed, and useful. A good place to start might be to stop instilling outdated and obsolete notions of masculinity into young boys' minds. Most young males are introduced to the 'warrior' myth, and are taught that these are appropriate role models for them. Their toys are war toys, their stories, comics and media are filled with 'action' heroes saving the world from evil, their sports are taught as "substitutes for war" that reward violence and aggression. Whatever use this myth may have had in the past, is it appropriate to encourage it in a society that has left cave dwelling far behind it? I can see what you're saying, but I think it actually goes beyond this. I think of the old cowboy movies during the first half of the 20th century, and even though the "good guys" were tough, action hero types, they still had a certain code that they followed, however mythic and unrealistic it might have been. However, by the 1970s, the cynicism about that imagery and many of the myths we grew up with might have caused an escalation and exacerbation of nihilism. The line between the "good guys" and the "bad guys" became blurred. Movies started glorifying criminals and showed people the seedy underside of our society. By 1990, the ethos of popular culture was effectively summed up by this line from Goodfellas: Henry Hill: For us to live any other way was nuts. Uh, to us, those goody-good people who worked shitty jobs for bum paychecks and took the subway to work every day, and worried about their bills, were dead. I mean they were suckers. They had no balls. If we wanted something we just took it. If anyone complained twice they got hit so bad, believe me, they never complained again So, perhaps in order to stop instilling outdated and obsolete notions of masculinity in young boys, we should first make these notions outdated and obsolete. If those who cheat and take what they want by force can get away with it and end up winning, then that will have a far greater influence on the minds of young boys. Even if it's not glorified in fiction, they can still see the news and read their own history. It's easy to say that these are outdated and obsolete notions of masculinity, but how many people actually believe that? quote: From infancy boys are trained to suppress their feelings and emotions, that expressing these feelings and emotions is (heaven forbid!) unmanly. How can we expect troubled youths to reach out for help when all their lives they have been trained to do the precise opposite? We fill them with the false notion that the very act of reaching out is unmanly, that the feelings and emotions they need to address and talk through are not for sharing, that 'real men' just "grin and bear it" ~~stupidly~~stoically. Actually, there is one emotion which is still "manly" to express, and that's anger. Compassion is also acceptable, provided it's done from a position of strength. But crying, sadness, whining, sniveling, despair - all that's out of the question. I've noticed on various internet forums (including this one), there seems to be a very sharp reaction against any forms of "whining." It's not just a question of what boys are taught or trained to do. It's also a matter of society's reaction if and when they do reach out for help. Society is not sympathetic. Society doesn't give a shit about these people, not really. There are social programs geared towards warehousing and chemical behavioral management, but there's no real "help" available, not unless you can pay top dollar. So, society itself needs to be retrained, not just the young boys. quote: It ought not come as a total surprise then to see that most violence is committed by young males When violence is taught as an acceptable conflict resolution mechanism, it is going to be used as conflict resolution mechanism. Overall, we've lived in a violent world. That's our history, it's who and what we are. I don't think there's any way to get away from it entirely. However, during that same history, there have been times when some have made an honest effort to reduce violence and curb the predatory nature of our species. I think we've tried to become more civilized, and even when it seems like we're making some progress, we seem to regress again. I think there might be some ways of making things better. There's a local organization called Ben's Bells which encourages people to "Be kind." I'm not sure how much it actually works, but every little bit helps, I suppose. I'm not sure how much kindness we can actually expect in this world. So much of it seems so unkind that violence is just a natural consequence. Sometimes, I wonder if the fictional "Vulcans" on Star Trek had the right idea. Eliminate emotions altogether and embrace a doctrine of logic and reason as their guiding principles. That may be the only way.

WantsOfTheFlesh -> RE: Young Men and Mass Violence (4/25/2013 6:39:23 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle From infancy boys are trained to suppress their feelings and emotions, that expressing these feelings and emotions is (heaven forbid!) unmanly. How can we expect troubled youths to reach out for help when all their lives they have been trained to do the precise opposite? We fill them with the false notion that the very act of reaching out is unmanly, that the feelings and emotions they need to address and talk through are not for sharing, that 'real men' just "grin and bear it" ~~stupidly~~stoically. tweaks this is 2013 not 1963. [8\|]

Aswad -> RE: Young Men and Mass Violence (4/25/2013 2:11:14 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML However, isn't it possible that weak males were eliminated by the process of sexual selection because females chose the more aggressive males? Anything is possible, but last I heard, increased risk-willingness was sufficient to account for the observables, making the inclusion of aggression "needless multiplication of entities" as per Occam's Razor. Also, as noted, aggression tends to be less evident in risk-averse individuals, which means there's a confounding factor in observing the level of aggression that is present. Reckless driving, for instance, is a good "finger in the air" measure of willingness to take on more risk, but not a good measure of aggression. You could, I suppose, propose that modern civilization has no place for the males with high-risk-taking behavior, and that this may cause those to become more aggressive, and that this, in turn, will be less inhibited in those males, and so forth, but then you'd be positing a pretty huge beast that still doesn't add anything interesting to a debate about how to deal with the situation. Selection is for he who dares much and wins much. If he dies in the process, then there's other men out there that haven't failed, and you go get the next one. Thus, you get selection for the men that who what is at the bounds of what they can accomplish, with those overreaching and failing being shrugged off, and those playing it safe relegated to consolation prizes that get stuck raising the children of the ones that played to win. After all, it's not difficult to maximize breeding throughput if there's more than one man per dozen or so women. quote: Taller men with bigger packages are more preferred and successful in many endeavours. Yes, because this is indicative of health, social status and nutritional status, all of which correlate with other parameters of interest, as well. External appearance is the first guess at factors of interest, with similarity to rearing environment, health, nutrition and social status being a sort of telltale of the things you really want. Nature doesn't need to get it right every time. Nature just needs to get it right much of the time. Nature doesn't care about political correctness, or even actual correctness. If a trait is correlated with what the species needs, then almost everyone going for that trait will work out well on average, even if that causes you to miss the ones that have what you need in abundance. Evolution has nothing to do with individual happiness and quality, and everything to do with a mass effect at the species level that drives survival success over time. quote: Aggression seems papable in the 14 to 30 age group. 14 to 24, around here, at least. And, no, not aggression. Extroverted recklessness. Two entirely different beasts. How often does the impulse of aggression occur to you? How large a fraction of the times do you act on it? Would you act on it more often if there was no risk involved? How about when you were young and dumb? And what if society rewarded you, rather than punishing you, for doing whatever you feel like (cf. "rape crew" case)? Just because people describe it as aggression doesn't mean we're pinning the tail on the right donkey. IWYW, — Aswad.

Aswad -> RE: Young Men and Mass Violence (4/25/2013 2:16:08 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML Saddened to read this about Norway. But not an isolated case in Europe, is it? Not an isolated case, no, but the UK has done better work in integration, for instance. And I would like to reiterate that, as Politesub53 points out, there's no call for ordinary Muslims in Europe to be sent home; this is indeed their home now. My interest is improving integration and limiting the rate of immigration so that it matches with the rate of assimilation. IWYW, — Aswad.

Aswad -> RE: Young Men and Mass Violence (4/25/2013 3:07:41 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle A good place to start might be to stop instilling outdated and obsolete notions of masculinity into young boys' minds. You'll note some of us cave dweller types fail to see anything masculine about what was done in Boston. I considered dissecting some of this, but your blatant misandry is just too disgusting to touch. IWYW, — Aswad.

FunCouple5280 -> RE: Young Men and Mass Violence (4/25/2013 3:17:07 PM)
quote: but your blatant misandry is just too disgusting to touch [sm=agree.gif][sm=goodpost.gif] Restated for truth

Rule -> RE: Young Men and Mass Violence (4/25/2013 3:41:04 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Aswad there's a confounding factor in observing the level of aggression that is present. Reckless driving, for instance, is a good "finger in the air" measure of willingness to take on more risk, but not a good measure of aggression. It has been shown that a little bit of risk taking - as in reckless driving - is healthy for the brain, whereas no risk taking is detrimental for the brain. quote: ORIGINAL: Aswad You could, I suppose, propose that modern civilization has no place for the males with high-risk-taking behavior, and that this may cause those to become more aggressive, and that this, in turn, will be less inhibited in those males, and so forth, but then you'd be positing a pretty huge beast that still doesn't add anything interesting to a debate about how to deal with the situation. Risk taking and aggression are two different beasts. Aggression is a good characteristic in warriors and savages; it also requires in both psychologies the absence of a conscience. People with such psychologies are primitives. quote: ORIGINAL: Aswad Selection is for he who dares much and wins much. If he dies in the process, then there's other men out there that haven't failed, and you go get the next one. Thus, you get selection for the men that who what is at the bounds of what they can accomplish, with those overreaching and failing being shrugged off, and those playing it safe relegated to consolation prizes that get stuck raising the children of the ones that played to win. After all, it's not difficult to maximize breeding throughput if there's more than one man per dozen or so women. There are various reproductive strategies and they all have their plusses and minusses. What a civilization needs is a low level of high risk takers. Recall that spaceship full of hair dressers in "The Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy", that wanted to colonize a planet? A spaceship full of kings with the same ambition would be equally crazy. quote: ORIGINAL: Aswad quote: Taller men with bigger packages are more preferred and successful in many endeavours. Yes, because this is indicative of health, social status and nutritional status, all of which correlate with other parameters of interest, as well. External appearance is the first guess at factors of interest, with similarity to rearing environment, health, nutrition and social status being a sort of telltale of the things you really want. So that explains all them USA citizens that require two seats in an airplane: they are simply showing off their reproductive fitness! Look here: the body in this phase of our evolution may be ignored. What is far more important is the mind: has a prospective male partner all of the good parts of the mind, or does he lack one or more, like for example a conscience? quote: ORIGINAL: Aswad If a trait is correlated with what the species needs, then almost everyone going for that trait will work out well on average Quite. You are on the right track, Aswad. Now take it a couple of steps further. quote: ORIGINAL: Aswad what if society rewarded you, rather than punishing you, for doing whatever you feel like (cf. "rape crew" case)? Quite. Please note that Muslim males are hardly ever prosecuted and punished for raping a female. It is instead the female that is punished if she objects and complains. quote: ORIGINAL: Aswad Just because people describe it as aggression doesn't mean we're pinning the tail on the right donkey. Quite.

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