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RE: Wh is torture ok? - 4/23/2013 8:08:10 PM

Extravagasm

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quote:

Aylee: re Leaflets . . . .We cannot promise that only these cities will be among those attacked but some or all of them will be, so heed this warning and evacuate these cities immediately.

You and I both know such numerous simultaneous evacuations as described and decentralized, would be inconceivable. Perhaps would even cause the chaos that the allies were intending.
I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, clearly you were not justifying, only citing.

But back to the critical issue. My steadfast lifetime conclusion is that there is not a right to torture, since there is not an absolute right to another's info in the first place. It must be obtained voluntarily or by slight.

You opine that the Japanese (and US) have a 'right' to torture info out. And I presume others you grant also have this 'right'. Sorry but I've spent my life trying to see where the absolute right to another's secrets derives from. International law has it quite the other way around. Microsoft has sued small nations over theft of information. Yes war changes some things. But it doesn't create that absolute right to another's information. At least nobody, including you, has ever hinted how.

And my God, the trend just keeps stretching way out. Folks are even discussing absolute right to torture information from kid perpetrator in Boston. (Only if it's needed, LOL). Give me a break.

< Message edited by Extravagasm -- 4/23/2013 8:41:47 PM >

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RE: Wh is torture ok? - 4/23/2013 9:09:23 PM

Extravagasm

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quote:

Aylee: Why would they [Japs] have done that [tortured info re US attacks]?
We [US] dropped leaflets.

I know I'm out of sequence Aylee (my 'Heartless' friend :) . Here's something else to consider. BinLadin wrote and warned the US repeatedly for years before and after 9/11. But the US still proceeded to try torturing further details out of whom they deemed valued operatives.
The abbreviated term Japs above, is in deference to the way a blood relative of mine who was at the flag raising at Iwo Jima, used it. Several decades ago, when I studied tactical military history at West Point, the US was completely against torture. A great percentage of dedicated military leaders still are.

< Message edited by Extravagasm -- 4/23/2013 9:34:19 PM >

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RE: Wh is torture ok? - 4/23/2013 9:21:30 PM

Owner59

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It`s old but still quite relevant.

http://www.hollywood.com/news/tv/3662740/u-s-army-invites-kiefer-sutherland-to-give-anti-torture-speech?page=all

24 star Kiefer Sutherland has accepted an invitation from the U.S. military to teach army cadets it is wrong to torture prisoners.

Sutherland, who plays agent Jack Bauer on the show, has agreed to talk to cadets at the West Point military academy in New York state after army chiefs claimed the show's torture scenes are influencing its newest recruits.

Earlier this month, Brigadier General Patrick Finnegan visited the set of 24 to urge its makers to cut down on torture scenes.

He told the show's producers, "I'd like them to stop. They should do a show where torture backfires. The kids see it and say, 'If torture is wrong, what about 24?'

"The disturbing thing is that although torture may cause Jack Bauer some angst, it is always the patriotic thing to do."

< Message edited by Owner59 -- 4/23/2013 9:22:48 PM >

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RE: Why is torture ok? - 4/23/2013 10:24:17 PM

Rule

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterCaneman
if they have to slap the shit out of some knucklehead in order to find out where he hid the bombs, I'm good with it, and I'll bet you would be too.

I am not.

I understand desperation, but I do not condone violence as a means to acquire information.

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RE: Why is torture ok? - 4/23/2013 11:19:21 PM

erieangel

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterCaneman
if they have to slap the shit out of some knucklehead in order to find out where he hid the bombs, I'm good with it, and I'll bet you would be too.

I am not.

I understand desperation, but I do not condone violence as a means to acquire information.

Same here. Studies, as well as real world experience from experienced interrogators, prove that forming a rapport with a prisoner is much more likely to get the hoped for results than "slapping the shit" out of him.

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RE: Wh is torture ok? - 4/26/2013 4:20:33 AM

egern

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: papassion

Torture doesn't work? Ask the French underground who learned, the hard way, that Hitler's SS had ways to gain info. The French underground split information about a plan so each person only had a small piece of the whole plan. That way, no matter how severe the torture, the Germans would only get small, seemingly, non useful information.

If someone does the most painful thing you can think of for only 10 seconds, then stops, then tells you that if the info you gave doesn't check out, this is going to happen until you die, are you telling me you would still give false info? Horseshit!

It haapens all the time. That's how we know torture does not work.

QFT

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RE: Why is torture ok? - 4/26/2013 4:24:14 AM

egern

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

The bitch of it is that any results, true or false, could easily be classified. if the result were useful, they couldn't be disclosed. If they weren't, that info sure as hell will not be released.

Many of Obama's policies have disappointed me as not being clean breaks from Bush's policies, and the legacy of torture is one.

As is the fact that the Guantanamo base still isn't closed.

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RE: Why is torture ok? - 4/26/2013 4:27:11 AM

egern

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterCaneman
if they have to slap the shit out of some knucklehead in order to find out where he hid the bombs, I'm good with it, and I'll bet you would be too.

I am not.

I understand desperation, but I do not condone violence as a means to acquire information.

I would not either. Not a good way to get info.

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RE: Wh is torture ok? - 4/26/2013 5:37:02 AM

kalikshama

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quote:

24 star Kiefer Sutherland has accepted an invitation from the U.S. military to teach army cadets it is wrong to torture prisoners.

Sutherland, who plays agent Jack Bauer on the show, has agreed to talk to cadets at the West Point military academy in New York state after army chiefs claimed the show's torture scenes are influencing its newest recruits.

Earlier this month, Brigadier General Patrick Finnegan visited the set of 24 to urge its makers to cut down on torture scenes.

He told the show's producers, "I'd like them to stop. They should do a show where torture backfires. The kids see it and say, 'If torture is wrong, what about 24?'

Well then, ability to discern the difference between a TV show and reality should be part of the admission requirements.

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RE: Wh is torture ok? - 4/26/2013 6:01:33 AM

tj444

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kalikshama

Well then, ability to discern the difference between a TV show and reality should be part of the admission requirements.

sorta scary, isnt it..

and if military cadets buy into tv = reality, then what of the perception of all those that constantly play violent video games, etc?

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RE: Wh is torture ok? - 4/26/2013 7:54:34 AM

slvemike4u

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

It is never ok. It is morally wrong and it doesn't work.

QFT it also erodes our position and our argument...add to that the immeasurable assist in creating new recruits to world wide jihad

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RE: Why is torture ok? - 4/27/2013 1:40:31 AM

hlen5

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

Many of Obama's policies have disappointed me as not being clean breaks from Bush's policies, and the legacy of torture is one.

Same here.

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