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Religious couple do it again - 4/23/2013 3:17:13 PM   
tazzygirl


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At what point does religion start becoming worried about these children?

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RE: Religious couple do it again - 4/23/2013 3:53:18 PM   
Phoenixpower


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RE: Religious couple do it again - 4/23/2013 5:41:17 PM   
Aylee


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

http://www.seattlepi.com/news/crime/article/2nd-child-of-Pa-couple-dies-after-only-praying-4455524.php

At what point does religion start becoming worried about these children?



Oh Tazzy, this is a hard one. Other than it is sad that two babies have died, I am not sure how I feel about all of this. There are so many aspects.

As far as the direct question that you have asked, I believe that the answer (and I would NEVER actually say this to a parent that has lost a child) is that the dead babies are with G*d now and so they are in a better place. As far as the remaining babies, it appears that it is a greater separation from G*d by sinning and seeking medical intervention than death which brings reconciliation with G*d.

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RE: Religious couple do it again - 4/23/2013 6:06:43 PM   
tazzygirl


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Status: offline 		And I cannot see the teaching for that belief, Aylee. There was a time when one was more healthy by avoiding "physicians". That is no longer the case.

“I will take away sickness from among you. . .” Exodus 23:25,26

Hasnt "He" done that through science?

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RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
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Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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RE: Religious couple do it again - 4/23/2013 7:02:15 PM   
Aylee


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

And I cannot see the teaching for that belief, Aylee. There was a time when one was more healthy by avoiding "physicians". That is no longer the case.


I dunno know Tazzy. It is not my belief. I just gave what I thought was the reasoning.

quote:

“I will take away sickness from among you. . .” Exodus 23:25,26

Hasnt "He" done that through science?


Well, no.

People still are unable to conceive and women still miscarry.

But if you read that whole section of Exodus it is just the lead up statutes to the law that will be given to Moses. Ya see. . . they were naughty folks and had been "testing" G*d and so he was just telling them to knock it off, worship him and in return they would receive his blessings.

The problem though, is that according to Paul, we are no longer using that covenant with G*d. There was a new one made with the crucifixion of Jesus. (Which is why circumcision is no longer mandated.)

Best explanation that I can give as I am rather tired.

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RE: Religious couple do it again - 4/23/2013 7:34:21 PM   
muhly22222


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Parents have a right to whatever religious belief they want to hold. They don't have a right to force those religious beliefs on an uninformed child who is (or may be) harmed by those beliefs. The children never had a chance to decide for themselves that they wanted to be a part of this denomination, and to practice this particular belief, yet the parents forced both children into practicing it, which led to their deaths.

One of the arguments that gets brought up around issues like this is the parents' First Amendment right to worship freely. But there's an old, common saying: "Your rights end where my nose begins." These parents had every right to pray for their children. They had every right (unless the probation they were on said otherwise) to not rush to the doctor the second a kid hit 99 on the thermometer. They had every right to refuse to see a doctor if they were feeling sick themselves. But they didn't have a right to force those children into religious practices that are harmful to them, when the children were not able to consent to those practices.

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RE: Religious couple do it again - 4/23/2013 7:36:38 PM   
Aylee


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quote:

ORIGINAL: muhly22222

FR

Parents have a right to whatever religious belief they want to hold. They don't have a right to force those religious beliefs on an uninformed child who is (or may be) harmed by those beliefs. The children never had a chance to decide for themselves that they wanted to be a part of this denomination, and to practice this particular belief, yet the parents forced both children into practicing it, which led to their deaths.


Sorry. . . but indoctrinating your child is one of the prime responsibilities of a parent.

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Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam

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RE: Religious couple do it again - 4/23/2013 8:18:47 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee


quote:

ORIGINAL: muhly22222

FR

Parents have a right to whatever religious belief they want to hold. They don't have a right to force those religious beliefs on an uninformed child who is (or may be) harmed by those beliefs. The children never had a chance to decide for themselves that they wanted to be a part of this denomination, and to practice this particular belief, yet the parents forced both children into practicing it, which led to their deaths.


Sorry. . . but indoctrinating your child is one of the prime responsibilities of a parent.

You can't be serious. The prime responsibility of a parent is the health, safety, and nurturing their child toward adulthood. Indoctrination? How Orwellian is that?

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RE: Religious couple do it again - 4/23/2013 8:20:42 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

http://www.seattlepi.com/news/crime/article/2nd-child-of-Pa-couple-dies-after-only-praying-4455524.php

At what point does religion start becoming worried about these children?

The question that springs to mind is where were Child Services and where was the Probation officer?

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RE: Religious couple do it again - 4/23/2013 10:12:36 PM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
At what point does religion start becoming worried about these children?



When it gets such a black eye that it can't afford not to and not one second before.

If I recall correctly last time this happened the response was for addition states to work to make it legal.

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RE: Religious couple do it again - 4/23/2013 10:23:21 PM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee


quote:

ORIGINAL: muhly22222

FR

Parents have a right to whatever religious belief they want to hold. They don't have a right to force those religious beliefs on an uninformed child who is (or may be) harmed by those beliefs. The children never had a chance to decide for themselves that they wanted to be a part of this denomination, and to practice this particular belief, yet the parents forced both children into practicing it, which led to their deaths.


Sorry. . . but indoctrinating your child is one of the prime responsibilities of a parent.

First of all the particular belief we're talking about is neglecting children to death. There's nothing hard about taking a position on this one, neglecting your kids to death is wrong. They belong in jail.

P.S. What's the difference between indoctrination and brain washing, is there any?

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RE: Religious couple do it again - 4/24/2013 5:06:53 AM   
Hillwilliam


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee


quote:

ORIGINAL: muhly22222

FR

Parents have a right to whatever religious belief they want to hold. They don't have a right to force those religious beliefs on an uninformed child who is (or may be) harmed by those beliefs. The children never had a chance to decide for themselves that they wanted to be a part of this denomination, and to practice this particular belief, yet the parents forced both children into practicing it, which led to their deaths.


Sorry. . . but indoctrinating your child is one of the prime responsibilities of a parent.

So sayeth the Taliban.

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RE: Religious couple do it again - 4/24/2013 5:28:04 AM   
Raiikun


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee


quote:

ORIGINAL: muhly22222

FR

Parents have a right to whatever religious belief they want to hold. They don't have a right to force those religious beliefs on an uninformed child who is (or may be) harmed by those beliefs. The children never had a chance to decide for themselves that they wanted to be a part of this denomination, and to practice this particular belief, yet the parents forced both children into practicing it, which led to their deaths.


Sorry. . . but indoctrinating your child is one of the prime responsibilities of a parent.

You can't be serious. The prime responsibility of a parent is the health, safety, and nurturing their child toward adulthood. Indoctrination? How Orwellian is that?


Indoctrinate: To instruct in a set of doctrines or principles.

Such principles I was indoctrinated in as a kid included concepts running the gamut from everything between showing kindness and respect to others to why you should look both ways before crossing the street.

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RE: Religious couple do it again - 4/24/2013 8:15:50 AM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Raiikun
Indoctrinate: To instruct in a set of doctrines or principles.

Such principles I was indoctrinated in as a kid included concepts running the gamut from everything between showing kindness and respect to others to why you should look both ways before crossing the street.


What's the difference between indoctrination and brain washing?

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RE: Religious couple do it again - 4/24/2013 8:16:49 AM   
tweakabelle


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Status: offline 		This is truly sick.

How twisted does an ideology or belief system have to be that it prevents parents providing the most basic health care to their children? Why did the court fail to ensure the welfare of the other children after the parents failure to take care of the first child who died?

Having said that, what does it say about their belief system that they need to be forced to take care of their children?

No doubt this twisted couple were ardent Right-To-Lifers.

Sick. Sad. Utterly utterly preventable

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RE: Religious couple do it again - 4/24/2013 8:26:11 AM   
hlen5


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Neuter them.

< Message edited by hlen5 -- 4/24/2013 8:59:24 AM >

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RE: Religious couple do it again - 4/24/2013 9:32:41 AM   
FunCouple5280


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quote:

First of all the particular belief we're talking about is neglecting children to death. There's nothing hard about taking a position on this one, neglecting your kids to death is wrong. They belong in jail.


Its funny, if you ignore you kid to smoke crack, they will take the kid away whether or not the child is sick or in imminent danger. But, claim you are neglecting the child for religious purposes and bango, you are off the hook.....

Maybe someone ought start the first universal church of crack and make that the cornerstone of their worship.....

I have never understood how denying healthcare to a child is protected under the first amendment......

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RE: Religious couple do it again - 4/24/2013 10:11:51 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

This is truly sick.

How twisted does an ideology or belief system have to be that it prevents parents providing the most basic health care to their children? Why did the court fail to ensure the welfare of the other children after the parents failure to take care of the first child who died?

Having said that, what does it say about their belief system that they need to be forced to take care of their children?

No doubt this twisted couple were ardent Right-To-Lifers.

Sick. Sad. Utterly utterly preventable

Are you familiar with the Fundamentalist Church of Latter Day Saints? Children raised in plural families isolated from the primary society, young boys driven off and young girls marrried off. Talk about sick!

In November 2008, 12 FLDS men were charged with offenses related to alleged underage marriages conducted during the years since the sect built the YFZ Ranch.[56] As of June 2010, six FLDS members have been convicted of felonies and received sentences ranging from seven to 75 years.[57]

[edit] Prosecutions in Texas

On November 5, 2009, a Schleicher County, Texas jury found Raymond Merril Jessop, 38, guilty of sexual assault of a child. According to evidence admitted at trial, Raymond Merril Jessop sexually assaulted a 16-year-old girl to whom he had been "spiritually married" when the girl was 15 years old.[58] The same jury sentenced Raymond Jessop to 10 years in prison and assessed a fine of $8,000.00.[59]

On December 18, 2009, a Schleicher County, Texas jury found Allan Keate guilty of sexual assault of a child. He was sentenced to 33 years in prison. Allan Keate fathered a child with a 15-year-old girl.[60] According to documents admitted at trial, Keate had also given three of his own daughters away in “spiritual” or “celestial” marriage, two of them at 15 and one at 14, to older men. The youngest of the three went to Warren Jeffs.[61]

On January 22, 2010, Michael George Emack pled no contest to sexual assault charges and was sentenced to seven years in prison. He married a 16-year-old girl at YFZ Ranch on August 5, 2004. She gave birth to a son less than a year later.[62]

On March 17, 2010, a Green County, Texas jury found Merril Leroy Jessop guilty of sexual assault of a child after deliberating only one hour.[58] Evidence admitted at the criminal trial proved beyond a reasonable doubt that Merril Leroy Jessop, 35, sexually assaulted a 15-year-old girl while living at the FLDS Ranch in Schleicher County, Texas.[58] The jury sentenced Jessop to 75 years in prison and assessed a $10,000.00 fine.[63]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamentalist_Church_of_Jesus_Christ_of_Latter-Day_Saints#Plural_marriage_and_placement_marriage

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RE: Religious couple do it again - 4/24/2013 10:23:09 AM   
FunCouple5280


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Status: offline 		We drove through Colorado City in Northern AZ on our way back from the grand canyon last year...... TOTAL PSYCHOS!!!!!! I don't care if that sounds insensitive they can fuck their crazy asses right to hell. We took some time to tour the town. We were stared at and followed the whole time.....So much for a free country. Gotta love the diner there titled 'sister wives'... Online it says merry wives, but that's not whats on the sign.....

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RE: Religious couple do it again - 4/24/2013 10:51:01 AM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FunCouple5280

We drove through Colorado City in Northern AZ on our way back from the grand canyon last year...... TOTAL PSYCHOS!!!!!! I don't care if that sounds insensitive they can fuck their crazy asses right to hell. We took some time to tour the town. We were stared at and followed the whole time.....So much for a free country. Gotta love the diner there titled 'sister wives'... Online it says merry wives, but that's not whats on the sign.....

I hope you didn't spend any money in that hellhole.

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