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ORIGINAL: egern

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ORIGINAL: WantsOfTheFlesh

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ORIGINAL: egern
Nato was established to meet the communist 'threat', only there never was one, Russia was down and counting with 20 million dead and everything in ruins.

yeah tha ussr was hurt by ww2 but became a true superpower after that wit a massive military & industrial complex plus pretty much a financial monopoly on tha eastern bloc.

But Nato was founded in 1949.

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ORIGINAL: vincentML

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I second that motion in spades!

Those who impose their democracy, the idea that ANY other man or institution can tell me which hand I need to wipe my ass with in the name of order.

Democracy is institutionalized hegemony!

Democracy and Empire are not synonymus. All government is institutionalized hegemony. Of course.

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ORIGINAL: vincentML

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The problem for U.S. policymakers is that, prior to the World Wars, we didn't know much else about the outside world beyond our borders. For that, we relied on Britain's guidance, since they had far more experience, diplomatic knowledge, and intelligence about other areas like the Middle East and East Asia. Their empire was more far-flung than America's regional hegemony at the time.

I agree with much of what you wrote but note that our overseas expansion of manifest destiny began with the War against Spain in 1898. Is how we ended up fighting a two year counter-insurrection in the Philippines, and gained possession of Guam. Teddy also brokered the 1905 treaty between Japan and Russia to end that war and lay the ground work for our own war against Japan later. We aslo had a hand in dividing China into an "open door" to European commerce.

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One thing that seems common of all failed empires is that, once they reach a certain plateau of success, they become blind to the next challenge and fail to see where to go next. All they can think to do is follow precedent, go along with business as usual and the status quo just for the sake of the status quo. That's pretty much what we're facing here in the United States. We're going through an identity crisis where we just can't figure out what to do with ourselves. We don't recognize the challenges that face us in the 21st century, and we've picked the wrong battles.

Is why Obama is redeploying to the Pacific.

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ORIGINAL: thompsonx

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The Soviet economy and the economies of their eastern European satellites never really recovered from WW2quote:



Bullshit


I will modify that statement in light of your eloquent disapproval . . .lol!
Make it their consumer economies never recovered from WW2. That was the achilles heal for Stalinism.

There was no consumer economy to recover.
1917 revolution.
1928 civil wars over.
1928-40 two and a half five year plans that moved russia and the ussr from least productive industrial nation to the top ten and allowed them to destroy hitlers armies with superior firepowr. This was because stalin recognized that hitler was going to attack and he needed tanks and guns not toasters and tea sets. When the war was over all of that production capacity was now available for other uses. Please note the accomplishments in the ussr after the war. The size and scope of public works projects such as roads and hydro-electric plants...space program and of course their ability to match the west in sophisticated armaments.

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Hobbes defines it as the lack of security or assurance with every man at war with all. Sorta like Deadwood. [:D]

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ORIGINAL: Real0ne

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ORIGINAL: vincentML

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The problem for U.S. policymakers is that, prior to the World Wars, we didn't know much else about the outside world beyond our borders. For that, we relied on Britain's guidance, since they had far more experience, diplomatic knowledge, and intelligence about other areas like the Middle East and East Asia. Their empire was more far-flung than America's regional hegemony at the time.

I agree with much of what you wrote but note that our overseas expansion of manifest destiny began with the War against Spain in 1898. Is how we ended up fighting a two year counter-insurrection in the Philippines, and gained possession of Guam. Teddy also brokered the 1905 treaty between Japan and Russia to end that war and lay the ground work for our own war against Japan later. We aslo had a hand in dividing China into an "open door" to European commerce.

BINGO! (referring to the highlited area)


[image]http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o296/nine_one_one/blacks/wisconsincreationofconstitutionpoliticiansbenefit1.jpg[/image]

the reason for democracy, to impose taxes on all transactions and land use in the name of "we fuck you real good"!

democracy like capitalism. does not exist but in the fantasies of idealists, and is controlled by those at the top, the plutocracy, NOT the people unless they are marching outside their legislatures armed does anyone pay attention.

nafta, borders, iraq comes to mind

certain people profit highly fro m a democracy other common people get the crumbs

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ORIGINAL: Real0ne

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ORIGINAL: thompsonx

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ORIGINAL: Politesub53

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ORIGINAL: YN

As Realone noted, the role of the United States has been as the English goon squad since the 1950's, a role the United States is relinquishing.

More than a few of us were laughing at that WASP idiot Kerry's statements as to how Latin America is the United State's back yard, those days are long over as well. The English inspired Middle Eastern adventures has cost the Anglo-Americans more then most of them know, and the end is nowhere in sight yet.

Laughable assertions made up and repeated by laughable people. The notion England started either WW1 or WW2 is not worthy of any comment other than to point out the idiocy of such an idea.

Par for the course for some though.

Churchill takes credit for his part in the instigation of ww2 in his book ww2 in six volums.

yep! they create the problem, create a a bad guy to blame, solve it with war, then brag about it how benevolent and wonderful they are, and whitewash as many history books used in schools of higher indoctrination as possible.

proof of that is the well documented fraud on the 13th amendment

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ORIGINAL: vincentML


You also remain blind to the fact that Kaplan was not lauding the American Empire but was offering the more general proposition that in history inequality was necessary to avoid international anarchy.

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ORIGINAL: egern

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ORIGINAL: vincentML

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The article is about avoiding world anarchy through hegemony.



Yes. So who thinks we had world anarchy before US got interested, and who thinks we would have had world anarchy not without it?

In fact, what is meant by that expression?

Errrmmm . . . WW2

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The world wars? Well, European countries started that, and US most surely helped sort it.

Russia did the heavy lifting in that encounter not the u.s.

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But in terms of the article, what should have happened would be that US let the nazis take over so they could create order, right?

History tells us that the russians defeated the germans not the u.s.
In short the nazis never had a prayer. Hitler went to an ass kicking contest barefoot and got his ass spanked purple because of it.

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ORIGINAL: egern

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ORIGINAL: thompsonx

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Nato was established to meet the communist 'threat', only there never was one, Russia was down and counting with 20 million dead and everything in ruins.

25 million dead and the most powerful military in the world and the most productive industrial process on the planet.

Not so. They may have had a lot of people left, but not much technology and certainly not much if any industry! They were smashed by the war, and lay in ruins. There was not threat, none.

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tha ussr recovered wit good speed by then. historians usually date tha cold war to 1946. bout this time stalin started getting aggressive & didnt honor agreed allied withdrawals.

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tha ussr army became seriously powerful when it had to stand up to tha krauts

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(the ruskies ripped tha japs up in a month)

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& stalin getting tha bomb made tha allies shit scared.

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ORIGINAL: egern

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ORIGINAL: thompsonx

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The Soviet economy and the economies of their eastern European satellites never really recovered from WW2quote:



Bullshit


I will modify that statement in light of your eloquent disapproval . . .lol!
Make it their consumer economies never recovered from WW2. That was the achilles heal for Stalinism.

There was no consumer economy to recover.
1917 revolution.
1928 civil wars over.
1928-40 two and a half five year plans that moved russia and the ussr from least productive industrial nation to the top ten and allowed them to destroy hitlers armies with superior firepowr. This was because stalin recognized that hitler was going to attack and he needed tanks and guns not toasters and tea sets. When the war was over all of that production capacity was now available for other uses. Please note the accomplishments in the ussr after the war. The size and scope of public works projects such as roads and hydro-electric plants...space program and of course their ability to match the west in sophisticated armaments.

The Sovjet union, like Britain, was exhausted and destroyed for many years after the war. You do not just pick up where you left off.

The Sovjet came back on track 20 years after the war, Britain later.

An argument for hegemony?

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ORIGINAL: YN

The principle was that hegemony and imperialism did not stop the Nazis nor the Japanese. The European empires folded like paper when faced with the AXIS.

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The Russia brought the Germans down and the United States brought the Japanese down.

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Neither Russia nor the United States had empires at the time, nor did either pretend to strive for world hegemony.

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ORIGINAL: thompsonx

The record of history shows that the russians did in about a month to the japs what the allies did in four years.

Aside from singapore what els did britain loose temporarily durring the war?
They were saved by russia kicking the living shit out of the germans and the japs.

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ORIGINAL: YN

The principle was that hegemony and imperialism did not stop the Nazis nor the Japanese. The European empires folded like paper when faced with the AXIS.

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The Russians brought the Germans down and the United States brought the Japanese down. Neither Russia nor the United States had empires at the time, nor did either pretend to strive for world hegemony.

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The English, French, and Dutch, each of whom had large colonial empires, and had attempted European hegemony over the world were subjugated and many of their colonial lands conquered, and only saved by Soviet and United States forces entering battle with/against the AXIS.

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ORIGINAL: YN

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ORIGINAL: thompsonx

The record of history shows that the russians did in about a month to the japs what the allies did in four years.

Aside from singapore what els did britain loose temporarily durring the war?
They were saved by russia kicking the living shit out of the germans and the japs.

So you think Berlin fell in 1942?

And the French English and Dutch lost considerable territory to the Japanese, you should review the history of the Japanese conquests. Burma, Malaya, Indonesia, Vietnam, Hong Kong, were all conquered by the Japanese among their victoreis. I will let you figure out which were English, French or Dutch.

And since the Russians had little to do with the war on Japan, perhaps you can explain to us which major battles Soviet forces won against Imperial Japan. Simple things, like when and where they occurred and such.

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"Anarchy & Hegemony: A defense of American Imperialism" was the title to your thread, you chose that title, no?

So now you claim this is not about American hegemony and imperialism but the historical imperialism and hegemony?

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ORIGINAL: YN

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ORIGINAL: Powergamz1

Did you seriously just compare the ramblings of some internet trolls to the norm for an entire nation? I'd like to see your critical thinking explicated on that.

He speaks the neo-conservative plank which was one of the core tenets of your Bush regime, a group elected twice by your country and on the neo-conservative plank, which was also endorsed by the corporate democrats in the United States. As such his words ansd his thinking is far more then the ramblings of an" internet troll."

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ORIGINAL: YN

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ORIGINAL: Powergamz1

If none of those countries learned anything, what new conditions exist that would compel any other country to suddenly become enlightened? Do you see China learning anything from the past?

They obviously have, their empire building attempts were over several thousand years ago. You don't see any Chinese arrogant enough to start threads favoring their role as the worlds police and moral arbitrators do you?