RE: Seperation church and state

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Yachtie -> RE: Seperation church and state (4/26/2013 2:42:44 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam I ask this question. Is letting the government at taxpayer expense expense arrange for a minister (whether ordained or not) of whatever denomination come into your local school and attempt to convert YOUR child to their religion against your wishes and without your knowledge not prohibiting your "Free exercise thereof"? In that vein, teachers impart all sorts of shit one may not approve of. And PSS is at taxpayer expense. You do hit the anti-religion buzz words, don't you. And to think, some people object to science over religion. But science is good and wholesome, not full of fairy tales and unicorns but theoretical multi-verses, dark energy and quantum stuff.

FunCouple5280 -> RE: Seperation church and state (4/26/2013 3:06:37 PM)
I want to know how studying multiverses would lead to a lack of condom use, or a jihad..... In the end science calls it a theory not a law.....

Hillwilliam -> RE: Seperation church and state (4/26/2013 4:08:54 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Yachtie quote: ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam I ask this question. Is letting the government at taxpayer expense expense arrange for a minister (whether ordained or not) of whatever denomination come into your local school and attempt to convert YOUR child to their religion against your wishes and without your knowledge not prohibiting your "Free exercise thereof"? In that vein, teachers impart all sorts of shit one may not approve of. And PSS is at taxpayer expense. You do hit the anti-religion buzz words, don't you. And to think, some people object to science over religion. But science is good and wholesome, not full of fairy tales and unicorns but theoretical multi-verses, dark energy and quantum stuff. You're right. There are a lot of folks who don't approve of verifiable fucking SCIENCE. There are also still a lot of folks who think that teaching math to girls is a waste of time. Is that against the constitution? Nice try at a red herring Anti-Religion buzzwords my ASS. How about antiscience buzzwords? Is there anydamnthing that is verifiable in the Old Testament? It seems the OT has exactly as much FACTUAL backing as your aforementioned unicorns. ETA. Maybe you should look at her comments under one of her talks http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U0ezYNWIDB0 It may be a new record. 3 lies in one sentence. Of course, some folks could use that as proof that she isn't preaching Christian dogma to HS students because we all know that Christians don't lie. It's one of the commandments.[8\|]

Aylee -> RE: Seperation church and state (4/26/2013 5:00:07 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam Is there anydamnthing that is verifiable in the Old Testament? It seems the OT has exactly as much FACTUAL backing as your aforementioned unicorns. We totally have video of Charlton Heston climbing down Mount Sinai with the 10 Commandments. What more do you want?

FrostedFlake -> RE: Seperation church and state (4/26/2013 5:35:08 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr quote: ORIGINAL: FrostedFlake quote: ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr Could you, please, show me where "seperation of church and state" appears in our constitution? Peace and comfort, Michael http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Establishment_Clause I didn't see that phrase, anywhere. Sorry. Here's a hint; Try: "Thomas Jefferson Letter to Rev ..." You'll find the phrase in President Jefferson's correspondance with a New England Fundementalist minister but you won't find it in the constitution. Peace and comfort, Michael I'll try again. quote: Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion. That's one. quote: Or prohibiting the free exercise thereof. That's two. quote: No religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States. That's three. I trust that is easy enough to understand for everyone.

DaddySatyr -> RE: Seperation church and state (4/26/2013 6:54:35 PM)
Your slight about "everyone understanding" aside, YOU don't seem to understand that you still haven't shown me the phrase: "Seperation of church and state" in the US Constitution. Is that so difficult to find?

Princess2086 -> RE: Seperation church and state (4/26/2013 7:21:13 PM)
I was reading some of the above posts, and I wanted to use my history degree. Seperation of Church and State, does not mean a lack of religion in politics or the removal of religion from goverment backed programs ( ie. Schools, courthouses, afterschool programs, State Capital Buildings). What Seperation of Church and State means is that no Federal Religion will be established, such as the Church of England. That no one will be denined the rights of an American Citizen because of his/her religion. In 1789, when our consituion was written, it was illegal for a Catholic to hold a goverment job in England. The Sepetatists fled England in fear of imprisonment. Several of our states were established by people fleeing England because they did not believe in the right religion. It was for thoses reasons we have Seperation of Church and State, not to keep ministers out of public schools.

LafayetteLady -> RE: Seperation church and state (4/26/2013 8:27:16 PM)
Does this really need to turn into another Religious vs. Atheists thread? How about sticking to the subject? There are many Christians who don't think this woman belongs lecturing at schools. Regardless of her personal agenda being of a religious nature, the point is that she is giving misinformation, and the fact that the principal threatened the student body president for complaining about it.

FrostedFlake -> RE: Seperation church and state (4/26/2013 8:56:24 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr Your slight about "everyone understanding" aside, YOU don't seem to understand that you still haven't shown me the phrase: "Seperation of church and state" in the US Constitution. Is that so difficult to find? Everyone here knows what a bright boy you are, DS. It a lead pipe cinch you can see what is in front of you. No law can force you to profess a given faith. No law can prevent you doing just that. No law can exclude you from public office on account of your faith or your lack of faith. That is separation of church and state. I know you can see that. If you have a point, make it.

Kirata -> RE: Seperation church and state (4/26/2013 8:56:46 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam It may be a new record. 3 lies in one sentence. How anyone who has been in P&R as long as you can make such a claim is beyond me. [:)] K.

Powergamz1 -> RE: Seperation church and state (4/26/2013 10:23:00 PM)
Not too many people seem to be having the trouble understanding the Constitution that you are having... here, let's try one more time. Art III sec 2 quote: ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr Your slight about "everyone understanding" aside, YOU don't seem to understand that you still haven't shown me the phrase: "Seperation of church and state" in the US Constitution. Is that so difficult to find?

Kirata -> RE: Seperation church and state (4/26/2013 11:02:12 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Powergamz1 Not too many people seem to be having the trouble understanding the Constitution that you are having... here, let's try one more time. Art III sec 2 quote: ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr Your slight about "everyone understanding" aside, YOU don't seem to understand that you still haven't shown me the phrase: "Seperation of church and state" in the US Constitution. ARTICLE III, Section 2 The judicial Power shall extend to all Cases, in Law and Equity, arising under this Constitution, the Laws of the United States, and Treaties made, or which shall be made, under their Authority; — to all Cases affecting Ambassadors, other public Ministers and Consuls; — to all Cases of admiralty and maritime Jurisdiction; — to Controversies to which the United States shall be a Party; — to Controversies between two or more States; — between a State and Citizens of another State [Modified by Amendment XI]; — between Citizens of different States; — between Citizens of the same State claiming Lands under Grants of different States, and between a State, or the Citizens thereof, and foreign States, Citizens or Subjects. In all Cases affecting Ambassadors, other public Ministers and Consuls, and those in which a State shall be Party, the supreme Court shall have original Jurisdiction. In all the other Cases before mentioned, the supreme Court shall have appellate Jurisdiction, both as to Law and Fact, with such Exceptions, and under such Regulations as the Congress shall make. The Trial of all Crimes, except in Cases of Impeachment, shall be by Jury; and such Trial shall be held in the State where the said Crimes shall have been committed; but when not committed within any State, the Trial shall be at such Place or Places as the Congress may by Law have directed. K.

egern -> RE: Seperation church and state (4/27/2013 12:48:56 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr Could you, please, show me where "seperation of church and state" appears in our constitution? Peace and comfort, Michael I found a link that works.. "Separation of church and state" (sometimes "wall of separation between church and state") is a phrase used by Thomas Jefferson and others expressing an understanding of the intent and function of the Establishment Clause and Free Exercise Clause of the First Amendment to the Constitution of the United States. The phrase has since been repeatedly used by the Supreme Court of the United States." "The First Amendment to the United States Constitution provides that "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof ...." and Article VI specifies that "no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States." The modern concept of a wholly secular government is sometimes credited to the writings of English philosopher John Locke, but the phrase "separation of church and state" in this context is generally traced to a January 1, 1802 letter by Thomas Jefferson, addressed to the Danbury Baptist Association in Connecticut, and published in a Massachusetts newspaper." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Separation_of_church_and_state_in_the_United_States#The_First_Amendment

DaddySatyr -> RE: Seperation church and state (4/27/2013 1:26:34 AM)
This is about as close to the correct answer as we're going to get. quote: ORIGINAL: Princess2086 I was reading some of the above posts, and I wanted to use my history degree. Seperation of Church and State, does not mean a lack of religion in politics or the removal of religion from goverment backed programs ( ie. Schools, courthouses, afterschool programs, State Capital Buildings). What Seperation of Church and State means is that no Federal Religion will be established, such as the Church of England. That no one will be denined the rights of an American Citizen because of his/her religion. In 1789, when our consituion was written, it was illegal for a Catholic to hold a goverment job in England. The Sepetatists fled England in fear of imprisonment. Several of our states were established by people fleeing England because they did not believe in the right religion. It was for thoses reasons we have Seperation of Church and State, not to keep ministers out of public schools. It's pretty funny, watching the usual suspects try to contort and twist and put that phrase into the constitution when it isn't there, at all. You can give me all the opinion articles from wikipedia that you want, telling us that that is the interpretation but the phrase DOES NOT EXIST IN THE US CONSTITUTION. When you start giving me interpretations, you start going into "I wish this were the way it is" land. Yes, Jefferson interpretted the first amendment to be a "seperation of church and state" (when he was writing to a fundementalist minister that wanted Jefferson to get the state of {?}Massachusetts {?} to stop "harrassing" his particular sect). Jefferson wrote that phrase as a way of saying: "The federal government is not going to get involved in a pissing contest between your religion and the state in which you live". It is fun to watch the usual suspects try to convince themselves that they're right, even though the phrase is NOT in our constitution. It's also fun to see the passive-agressive behaviors that some need to employ. I have another candidate for oblivion, as a result. Peace and comfort, Michael

Real0ne -> RE: Seperation church and state (4/27/2013 3:37:36 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr This is about as close to the correct answer as we're going to get. quote: ORIGINAL: Princess2086 I was reading some of the above posts, and I wanted to use my history degree. Seperation of Church and State, does not mean a lack of religion in politics or the removal of religion from goverment backed programs ( ie. Schools, courthouses, afterschool programs, State Capital Buildings). What Seperation of Church and State means is that no Federal Religion will be established, such as the Church of England. That no one will be denined the rights of an American Citizen because of his/her religion. In 1789, when our consituion was written, it was illegal for a Catholic to hold a goverment job in England. The Sepetatists fled England in fear of imprisonment. Several of our states were established by people fleeing England because they did not believe in the right religion. It was for thoses reasons we have Seperation of Church and State, not to keep ministers out of public schools. It's pretty funny, watching the usual suspects try to contort and twist and put that phrase into the constitution when it isn't there, at all. You can give me all the opinion articles from wikipedia that you want, telling us that that is the interpretation but the phrase DOES NOT EXIST IN THE US CONSTITUTION. When you start giving me interpretations, you start going into "I wish this were the way it is" land. Yes, Jefferson interpretted the first amendment to be a "seperation of church and state" (when he was writing to a fundementalist minister that wanted Jefferson to get the state of {?}Massachusetts {?} to stop "harrassing" his particular sect). Jefferson wrote that phrase as a way of saying: "The federal government is not going to get involved in a pissing contest between your religion and the state in which you live". It is fun to watch the usual suspects try to convince themselves that they're right, even though the phrase is NOT in our constitution. It's also fun to see the passive-agressive behaviors that some need to employ. I have another candidate for oblivion, as a result. Peace and comfort, Michael its very close to the correct answer. the king used to have bishops/parsons on staff. they shared control in a manner of speaking. religious canon law and common law I explained this several times already. Not everyone believed the way the next person believed a witch like brewing her tea and casting spells while the next person chomped on unleavened bread, and the state with their own variety of religion most closely aligning with secular humanism. as soon as the state makes one shoe fits all rules they just created a religion based on a set of beliefs by the majority if they call themselves a damobacrappy. Hence the infringement and restriction on freedom of religion. I just posted in another thread several state constitutions proving to everyone that you have no right "to exercise" any religion but the state religion. Its in every state constitution. and since the state forces you at gun point to exorcize according to their regulatory beliefs about what is right and wrong conduct etc the state established itself as a religion. the establishment of acceptable behavior and "right thinking" is after all what most all religions take part in! and that is BANG bulls eye on target answer! lol

Real0ne -> RE: Seperation church and state (4/27/2013 3:45:52 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Kirata quote: ORIGINAL: Powergamz1 Not too many people seem to be having the trouble understanding the Constitution that you are having... here, let's try one more time. Art III sec 2 quote: ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr Your slight about "everyone understanding" aside, YOU don't seem to understand that you still haven't shown me the phrase: "Seperation of church and state" in the US Constitution. ARTICLE III, Section 2 The judicial Power shall extend to all Cases, in Law and Equity, arising under this Constitution, the Laws of the United States, and Treaties made, or which shall be made, under their Authority; — to all Cases affecting Ambassadors, other public Ministers and Consuls; — to all Cases of admiralty and maritime Jurisdiction; — to Controversies to which the United States shall be a Party; — to Controversies between two or more States; — between a State and Citizens of another State [Modified by Amendment XI]; — between Citizens of different States; — between Citizens of the same State claiming Lands under Grants of different States, and between a State, or the Citizens thereof, and foreign States, Citizens or Subjects. In all Cases affecting Ambassadors, other public Ministers and Consuls, and those in which a State shall be Party, the supreme Court shall have original Jurisdiction. In all the other Cases before mentioned, the supreme Court shall have appellate Jurisdiction, both as to Law and Fact, with such Exceptions, and under such Regulations as the Congress shall make. The Trial of all Crimes, except in Cases of Impeachment, shall be by Jury; and such Trial shall be held in the State where the said Crimes shall have been committed; but when not committed within any State, the Trial shall be at such Place or Places as the Congress may by Law have directed. K. yeh and anyone who has a case not arising UNDER the constitution is fucked LOL besides most cases are tried under state constitutions that usurped your right "To Exercise" your religion among other things.

DesideriScuri -> RE: Seperation church and state (4/27/2013 3:48:00 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FrostedFlake quote: ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr Your slight about "everyone understanding" aside, YOU don't seem to understand that you still haven't shown me the phrase: "Seperation of church and state" in the US Constitution. Is that so difficult to find? Everyone here knows what a bright boy you are, DS. It a lead pipe cinch you can see what is in front of you. No law can force you to profess a given faith. No law can prevent you doing just that. No law can exclude you from public office on account of your faith or your lack of faith. That is separation of church and state. I know you can see that. If you have a point, make it. The point he is making,IMO, is that the oft-quoted phrase never appears in the text of the Constitution. Most of the time that people criticize some religious "thing" that happens at a public function (state-sponsored/run public institution, event, etc.), they use the quote as if it's in the Constitution, making the religious "thing" automatically unConstitutional. Since the phrase isn't actually in there, there needs to be a better explanation of why the "thing" is unConstitutional. In voter's rights discussions, there will be quotes taken directly from the Constitution to show why a law, idea, program or policy is or isn't Constitutional. There have been criticisms of some when the underlying basis for a belief is a quote from the Declaration of Independence, as it does not contain the authority that the Constitution carries. I believe that is the point DS is making.

Real0ne -> RE: Seperation church and state (4/27/2013 4:02:38 AM)
well separation of church and state is not the same as establishment of religion. they conveniently combined them so the state covers everything all by itself eliminating the need to worry about it. the state is a religion that forces everyone to exercise according to their dogma.

Hillwilliam -> RE: Seperation church and state (4/27/2013 6:02:09 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr This is about as close to the correct answer as we're going to get. quote: ORIGINAL: Princess2086 I was reading some of the above posts, and I wanted to use my history degree. Seperation of Church and State, does not mean a lack of religion in politics or the removal of religion from goverment backed programs ( ie. Schools, courthouses, afterschool programs, State Capital Buildings). What Seperation of Church and State means is that no Federal Religion will be established, such as the Church of England. That no one will be denined the rights of an American Citizen because of his/her religion. In 1789, when our consituion was written, it was illegal for a Catholic to hold a goverment job in England. The Sepetatists fled England in fear of imprisonment. Several of our states were established by people fleeing England because they did not believe in the right religion. It was for thoses reasons we have Seperation of Church and State, not to keep ministers out of public schools. It's pretty funny, watching the usual suspects try to contort and twist and put that phrase into the constitution when it isn't there, at all. You can give me all the opinion articles from wikipedia that you want, telling us that that is the interpretation but the phrase DOES NOT EXIST IN THE US CONSTITUTION. When you start giving me interpretations, you start going into "I wish this were the way it is" land. Yes, Jefferson interpretted the first amendment to be a "seperation of church and state" (when he was writing to a fundementalist minister that wanted Jefferson to get the state of {?}Massachusetts {?} to stop "harrassing" his particular sect). Jefferson wrote that phrase as a way of saying: "The federal government is not going to get involved in a pissing contest between your religion and the state in which you live". It is fun to watch the usual suspects try to convince themselves that they're right, even though the phrase is NOT in our constitution. It's also fun to see the passive-agressive behaviors that some need to employ. I have another candidate for oblivion, as a result. Peace and comfort, Michael May I assume that means you are OK wth someone coming into your child's school and converting them to their religion and away from yours without your knowledge or consent? Think hard before you answer. That person might be muslim. It's a simple yes/no question.

oldermdcpl4fun -> RE: Seperation church and state (4/27/2013 6:10:22 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr Could you, please, show me where "seperation of church and state" appears in our constitution? Peace and comfort, Michael Can you show me where an individual right to bear arms exists. Where corporate free speech is established? Where the notion that spending money is speech is mentioned? Are you protesting these "activist" ideas?

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