quote:

ORIGINAL: WantsOfTheFlesh
thanx. must try to read more of it myself.

quote:

Rand extolled “selfishness,” but not quite in its common meaning. (To some extent, she was using the now-familiar confrontational tactic of turning a slur against a stigmatized group — in this case, true individualists — into a badge of pride.) Roark’s foil, the social-climbing opportunist Peter Keating, gives up both the work and the woman he truly loves for career advancement. Most people, Rand says, would condemn Keating as “selfish”; yet his real problem is lack of self.

quote:

Rand’s anti-altruism tirades often turn their target into a straw man, but she is right that the knee-jerk habit of treating altruistic goals as noble has aided evil — for instance, blinding well-meaning Westerners to communism’s monstrosity.

quote:

ORIGINAL: BlkTallFullfig



The article basically passes Rand for moral, individualist, self reliant, and a person who doesn't step on others' freedoms, all the while excusing her character's indiscretions, and lack of consideration for the victims run over in her climb to the top.

quote:

ORIGINAL: FunCouple5280

quote:

ORIGINAL: BlkTallFullfig
The article basically passes Rand for moral, individualist, self reliant, and a person who doesn't step on others' freedoms, all the while excusing her character's indiscretions, and lack of consideration for the victims run over in her climb to the top.

Now Rand is certainly and idealist with a number of holes in her belief structure, but your statement isn't really true. In Atlas Shrugged, she consistently has her characters saying they would gladly step aside or subordinate to the person that does it best. She doesn't like corporate raiders and praises the meritocracy. Socially, she lacked morals and loved affairs and other sordid trysts, but she didn't like people who stole instead of earned.

quote:

she is right that the knee-jerk habit of treating altruistic goals as noble has aided evil — for instance, blinding well-meaning Westerners to communism’s monstrosity.

quote:

cordeliasub
Jesus said Render unto Ceasar that which is Ceasar's and render unto God that which is God's. The Bible also tells us to obey our governmental authorities. Some Christians HATE those references

quote:

ORIGINAL: BlkTallFullfig
First of all, you and DesideriScuri are the only two people I've EVER read/heard classify Rand as liberal. I've also never read your words here, and compared you to DesideriScuri until today. I may very well have misunderstood the word liberal, but I'm in good company, so I'll retain my understanding for now.

quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: WantsOfTheFlesh
thanx. must try to read more of it myself.

As to this, I did think my reply to you was curt. As I usually respect your words on here, I did go and read the article to be fair and considerate. I thought the article was very cleverly written by a conservative, trying to make Rand less repugnant to those of us who find her to be. You don't have to take my word, but Boston is full of conservative, blue bloods, and some very ignorant folks, who would like to pass themselves for progressives. The Boston Globe has always left me with the discomfort regarding truth and perspective when I've read it. Much the way they discribe porn; "...I know it when I see it."

quote:

quote:

Rand extolled “selfishness,” but not quite in its common meaning. (To some extent, she was using the now-familiar confrontational tactic of turning a slur against a stigmatized group — in this case, true individualists — into a badge of pride.) Roark’s foil, the social-climbing opportunist Peter Keating, gives up both the work and the woman he truly loves for career advancement. Most people, Rand says, would condemn Keating as “selfish”; yet his real problem is lack of self.

If one shuts one's brain down, this almost makes sense.

quote:

quote:

Rand’s anti-altruism tirades often turn their target into a straw man, but she is right that the knee-jerk habit of treating altruistic goals as noble has aided evil — for instance, blinding well-meaning Westerners to communism’s monstrosity.

What's to misunderstand here? This of course is insinuating that capitalism and Western values are all good, and have no monstrosities associated with their existence.

The article basically passes Rand for moral, individualist, self reliant, and a person who doesn't step on others' freedoms, all the while excusing her character's indiscretions, and lack of consideration for the victims run over in her climb to the top.

quote:

ORIGINAL: BlkTallFullfig
First of all, you and DesideriScuri are the only two people I've EVER read/heard classify Rand as liberal. I've also never read your words here, and compared you to DesideriScuri until today. I may very well have misunderstood the word liberal, but I'm in good company, so I'll retain my understanding for now.

quote:

Liberalism is the belief in freedom and equal rights generally associated with such thinkers as John Locke and Montesquieu. Liberalism as a political movement spans the better part of the last four centuries, though the use of the word liberalism to refer to a specific political doctrine did not occur until the 19th century. Perhaps the first modern state founded on liberal principles, with no hereditary aristocracy, was the United States of America, whose Declaration of Independence states that "all men are created equal and endowed by their creator with certain unalienable rights, among these life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness," echoing John Locke's phrase "life, liberty, and property". A few years later, the French Revolution overthrew the hereditary aristocracy, with the slogan "liberty, equality, fraternity", and was the first state in history to grant universal male suffrage.The Declaration of the Rights of Man and of the Citizen, first codified in 1789 in France, is a foundational document of both liberalism and human rights.
...
Classical liberals, who broadly emphasized the importance of free markets and civil liberties, dominated liberal history in the 19th century. The onset of the First World War and the Great Depression, however, accelerated the trends begun in late 19th century Europe toward social liberalism that emphasized a greater role for the state in ameliorating devastating social conditions. By the beginning of the 21st century, liberal democracies and their fundamental characteristics—support for constitutions, free and fair elections and pluralistic society—had prevailed in most regions around the world.

• A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  
• Personal Responsibility
  
• Help for the truly needy
  
• Limited Government
  
• Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)
  

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ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: WantsOfTheFlesh

quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead
Anybody who can read any of the Gospels and not think that he was a liberal social reformer of the sort that neocon fuckwits with Leviticus 25:44 tattooed on their arm would run away from screaming for Ayn Rand was either dropped on their head as a baby or their mother was smoking crack all the way through her pregnancy.

dunno why libs hate rand so much coz plenty of tha things she said bout freedom and individuality make her kinda liberal tho not a sympathetic one.

Because she's a "classic" liberal, not a liberal the way it's used now. She's a liberal in the same way that Jefferson, Madison, etc. were liberals.

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ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

Jesus did

Unfortunately for the author's claim, the tract doesn't present a single quote from Christ that supports his thesis.

For Jesus simply to observe that the spiritual world is not the mundane world certainly doesn't qualify, yet he offers John 18:36 as his leading evidence. The second quote is, "Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword" [Matthew 26:52]. No cigar there. And John 19:10-11 offers nothing either. Nor does "Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's and to God the things that are God's" [Mark 12:17], because that would be true in any case.

Five Pinocchios.

K.

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ORIGINAL: WantsOfTheFlesh

quote:

ORIGINAL: BlkTallFullfig
First of all, you and DesideriScuri are the only two people I've EVER read/heard classify Rand as liberal. I've also never read your words here, and compared you to DesideriScuri until today. I may very well have misunderstood the word liberal, but I'm in good company, so I'll retain my understanding for now.

shes been described as a classical liberal as from an earlier political tradition http://prometheus-unbound.org/2011/05/27/interview-jennifer-burns-on-ayn-rand-and-the-classical-liberal-tradition

quote:

1). a movement in modern Protestantism that rejects biblical authority. 2) a political or social philosophy advocating the freedom of the individual, parliamentary systems of government, nonviolent modification of political, social, or economic institutions to assure unrestricted development in all spheres of human endeavor, and governmental guarantees of individual rights and civil liberties. 3.( sometimes initial capital letter ) the principles and practices of a liberal party in politics. 4. a movement in modern Protestantism that emphasizes freedom from tradition and authority, the adjustment of religious beliefs to scientific conceptions, and the development of spiritual capacities.

quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: WantsOfTheFlesh
thanx. must try to read more of it myself.

As to this, I did think my reply to you was curt. As I usually respect your words on here, I did go and read the article to be fair and considerate. I thought the article was very cleverly written by a conservative, trying to make Rand less repugnant to those of us who find her to be. You don't have to take my word, but Boston is full of conservative, blue bloods, and some very ignorant folks, who would like to pass themselves for progressives. The Boston Globe has always left me with the discomfort regarding truth and perspective when I've read it. Much the way they discribe porn; "...I know it when I see it."

quote:

Rand extolled “selfishness,” but not quite in its common meaning. (To some extent, she was using the now-familiar confrontational tactic of turning a slur against a stigmatized group — in this case, true individualists — into a badge of pride.) Roark’s foil, the social-climbing opportunist Peter Keating, gives up both the work and the woman he truly loves for career advancement. Most people, Rand says, would condemn Keating as “selfish”; yet his real problem is lack of self.

quote:

If one shuts one's brain down, this almost makes sense.

quote:

i read a good article yrs ago describing her as a flawed reactionary. may well be true tho at a more human level i kinda understand her strong reaction to tha brutal treatment & conditions she & her family were subjected to in tha ussr.

quote:

The article basically passes Rand for moral, individualist, self reliant, and a person who doesn't step on others' freedoms, all the while excusing her character's indiscretions, and lack of consideration for the victims run over in her climb to the top.

quote:

maybe tha article meant communisms reality which was pretty bad. agreed capitalisms values aint perfect but usually capitalism doesnt step on tha most basic freedoms tho i know life can be hard in some countries. that might be what motivated rands hostility to altruism with it linked to communism but dont know enough about her to say for sure.

quote:

ORIGINAL: FunCouple5280

quote:

ORIGINAL: BlkTallFullfig



The article basically passes Rand for moral, individualist, self reliant, and a person who doesn't step on others' freedoms, all the while excusing her character's indiscretions, and lack of consideration for the victims run over in her climb to the top.

Now Rand is certainly and idealist with a number of holes in her belief structure, but your statement isn't really true. In Atlas Shrugged, she consistently has her characters saying they would gladly step aside or subordinate to the person that does it best.

quote:

She doesn't like corporate raiders and praises the meritocracy.

quote:

Socially, she lacked morals and loved affairs and other sordid trysts, but she didn't like people who stole instead of earned.

quote:

ORIGINAL: BlkTallFullfig

I do get a little perplexed when atheists go out of their way to eliminate any religious reference within schools, but that is because I don't consider religion a harmful thing.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

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ORIGINAL: leonine

You don't have to be an atheist to see the problems with having exclusively Protestant Christian prayers in schools that have Hindu, Buddhist and Muslim children.

No matter. The principal purpose of prayer in schools is to allow you to take a major test or final exam with the feeling that you've got all the bases covered. Students can do that just fine on their own if they're so inclined.

K.

quote:

ORIGINAL: BlkTallFullfig

quote:

ORIGINAL: WantsOfTheFlesh

quote:

ORIGINAL: BlkTallFullfig
First of all, you and DesideriScuri are the only two people I've EVER read/heard classify Rand as liberal. I've also never read your words here, and compared you to DesideriScuri until today. I may very well have misunderstood the word liberal, but I'm in good company, so I'll retain my understanding for now.

shes been described as a classical liberal as from an earlier political tradition http://prometheus-unbound.org/2011/05/27/interview-jennifer-burns-on-ayn-rand-and-the-classical-liberal-tradition

I apologize for not having researched "classical liberalism" and Rand's relevance as a Classical Liberal pre 19th Century. So many things occurred prior and up to 19th century, and Liberalism has taken on a life of it's own since than. Rand could hardly survive among the liberals of today.

Liberalism today is more like:

quote:

1). a movement in modern Protestantism that rejects biblical authority. 2) a political or social philosophy advocating the freedom of the individual, parliamentary systems of government, nonviolent modification of political, social, or economic institutions to assure unrestricted development in all spheres of human endeavor, and governmental guarantees of individual rights and civil liberties. 3.( sometimes initial capital letter ) the principles and practices of a liberal party in politics. 4. a movement in modern Protestantism that emphasizes freedom from tradition and authority, the adjustment of religious beliefs to scientific conceptions, and the development of spiritual capacities.

quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: WantsOfTheFlesh
thanks for explaining BTF & no offense taken. i always thought boston was a liberal city that votes democrat mostly tho i know mass was romneys stomping ground. dont know much about the boston globe.

Not only was Boston Romney's stomping ground, Elizabeth Warren won by a very narrow margin to Scott Brown ( a barely known former model, who drives a truck).

quote:

quote:

Rand extolled “selfishness,” but not quite in its common meaning. (To some extent, she was using the now-familiar confrontational tactic of turning a slur against a stigmatized group — in this case, true individualists — into a badge of pride.) Roark’s foil, the social-climbing opportunist Peter Keating, gives up both the work and the woman he truly loves for career advancement. Most people, Rand says, would condemn Keating as “selfish”; yet his real problem is lack of self.

quote:

If one shuts one's brain down, this almost makes sense.

quote:

i read a good article yrs ago describing her as a flawed reactionary. may well be true tho at a more human level i kinda understand her strong reaction to tha brutal treatment & conditions she & her family were subjected to in tha ussr.

If we consider one's lineage, and upbringing, most all of us would have reasons to be extemely...

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ORIGINAL: FunCouple5280
Socially, she lacked morals and loved affairs and other sordid trysts, but she didn't like people who stole instead of earned.

quote:

ORIGINAL: BlkTallFullfig

Ideally, I would prefer administration of the state based on laws, good morals and ethics. However, having always been influenced by religion on some level, I'm not offended by some small religious practices within public places; i.e. the christmas tree, and prayer in schools.
I do get a little perplexed when atheists go out of their way to eliminate any religious reference within schools, but that is because I don't consider religion a harmful thing. Religious zealots are problematic, but crazies are problematic on any given day, for any given reason. M

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ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam
Therefore, if you are truly a Christian, you must believe in separation of Church and State whether it's in the constitution or not because it's in the Bible.

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ORIGINAL: cordeliasub

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ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: leonine

You don't have to be an atheist to see the problems with having exclusively Protestant Christian prayers in schools that have Hindu, Buddhist and Muslim children.

No matter. The principal purpose of prayer in schools is to allow you to take a major test or final exam with the feeling that you've got all the bases covered. Students can do that just fine on their own if they're so inclined.

K.

bahahaha - very true

That is why it irks me when fundies say "we can't pray in schools!!" Yes we can. Students can choose to pray if they want. A teacher can't lead it or make them - which is as it should be. Same for clubs. If a group of students want to meet outside school hours and get together and read Romans to each other they have the freedom to do that. Again, a teacher can't lead them - which is as it should be. As a music teacher I never had one whit of trouble with my kids learning about The Messiah or Requiem or any of that because....anyone who knows anything about music and music history knows it's relevant. And nobody whined when we sang Stille Nacht (Silent Night) at the winter program because we also sang songs celebrating Hanukah, Kwanzaa, winter solstice, Chinese New Year, winter in general, and a kid even read a poem he wrote about his family observing Ramadan. It ain't rocket science.

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ORIGINAL: cordeliasub

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: leonine

You don't have to be an atheist to see the problems with having exclusively Protestant Christian prayers in schools that have Hindu, Buddhist and Muslim children.

No matter. The principal purpose of prayer in schools is to allow you to take a major test or final exam with the feeling that you've got all the bases covered. Students can do that just fine on their own if they're so inclined.

K.

bahahaha - very true

That is why it irks me when fundies say "we can't pray in schools!!" Yes we can. Students can choose to pray if they want. A teacher can't lead it or make them - which is as it should be. Same for clubs. If a group of students want to meet outside school hours and get together and read Romans to each other they have the freedom to do that. Again, a teacher can't lead them - which is as it should be. As a music teacher I never had one whit of trouble with my kids learning about The Messiah or Requiem or any of that because....anyone who knows anything about music and music history knows it's relevant. And nobody whined when we sang Stille Nacht (Silent Night) at the winter program because we also sang songs celebrating Hanukah, Kwanzaa, winter solstice, Chinese New Year, winter in general, and a kid even read a poem he wrote about his family observing Ramadan. It ain't rocket science.