RE: NRA Misrepresents Police Survey, Legislation

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DesideriScuri -> RE: NRA Misrepresents Police Survey, Legislation (5/1/2013 7:28:59 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lucylastic thank you for making me smile:)75 % ofthe voices in my head laughed LOL [:D]

DomKen -> RE: NRA Misrepresents Police Survey, Legislation (5/1/2013 8:20:58 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess FR Just a note on the various polls that people are citing in support of a variety of things - what do any of these polls tell us about how senators from gun-toting states are going to vote unless the poll was specific to that state?? And North Dakota and Alaska get the same number of senators as New York - despite the obvious difference in population. Oddly, on this matter, the senate is actually operating exactly as it was meant to - preventing small population states from having policies forced on them by more populous ones. Can someone point me to polls in the states where Democratic senators voted against the gun bill? (These would be the following: Arkansas, Montana, North Dakota, Alaska, and Nevada). In other words, what percentage of gun owners in those states think guns should be regulated. I suspect......not very many..... National polls are not actually helpful when trying to decipher the senate vote. PPP has that http://www.publicpolicypolling.com/main/2013/04/more-backlash-against-senators-on-gun-vote.html

DomKen -> RE: NRA Misrepresents Police Survey, Legislation (5/1/2013 8:30:17 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: lovmuffin quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: lovmuffin The shotgun thing is not exactly a correct opinion. First of all it has to be a 12 gauge to be ideal and that depends on who and where. It's easy to aim but for most women its not easy to handle where as an AR 15 is because of its low recoil. Also contrary to what Biden said, the AR 15 is quite accurate. The ideal gun also depends on the situation. If you're caught up in the middle of an all out riot, you might want an AR 15 with 30 or 40 round magazines. There are all kinds of situations an AR 15 might be best. There are all kinds of situations a 12 gauge might be best. There is no "one magic gun" ideal for all situations. Yes shotguns are more accurate at home defence ranges than any rifle. The discussion is about home defence and it is indisputable that a shotgun, in any gauge, is a better home defence weapon than any rifle in the hands of all but an expert shooter. The intimidation factor cannot be discounted and the ability to fire and hit a target at close range without a lot of practice makes it by far the best option for most people. It's not indisputable. I don't know why you need to be an expert to accurately shoot a rifle at close range. What I can't figure out is how would you miss. It's not absolute and 12 gauge is best. More accurate at home defense range ?? That means close range. Anything is more accurate at close range including a handgun which is likely an ideal choice for home defense because a long gun will be bulky. The sound of a pump shotgun certainly has an intimidation factor but based on looks a military looking rifle, especially an AK type with one of those 30 round magazines would seem to me to be just as intimidating if not more so. But here we are getting hung up on looks. Maybe you should try putting a bayonet on that shotgun and see how scary lookin it is then. [8D] Have you ever tried to shoot anything at close range with a rifle? It is absolutely and unquestionable that a shotgun is better for almost every user. You're wasting time trying to defend some fool who tried to insist that the AR-15 is better for a woman because it has less recoil. Which is true but irrelevant. The shotgun does not need to be accurately aimed in the way a rifle must be to hit the target and yes at 10 or 15 feet you must aim the rifle to hit a person and if you have no experience bringing it onto target at those ranges under stress you are very likely to miss (as anyone with a decent amount of experience with rifles would know). As to the intimidation factor have some point a 12 gauge at you and see how that gaping tunnel makes you feel.

TricklessMagic -> RE: NRA Misrepresents Police Survey, Legislation (5/1/2013 9:33:24 PM)
I've actually shot many targets at close range with a rifle. It's incredibly easy with the pipsqueak 7.62x39 and .223 rounds in either an AR or AK platform (own an AK variant in each). To call the calibers rifle rounds is something of a joke but nonetheless they are. I'm 260 pounds and I bench over 400 lbs and it's far easier for me to shoot an AR15 on multiple targets in rapid succession then a shotgun. I actually prefer to use a CETME Sporter I've customized as my home rifle with a twenty round mag. The recoil is easy to ride for rapid shots and multiple target acquisition. It's a matter of knowing the right tricks and practice. As someone who owns and has shot many shotguns, I think you should visit theboxotruth, it's a great website and it can help demystify the shotgun for you. Only bird shot really spreads out at close range and it's not terribly effective for self-defense. A dose of 00' actually stays quite tight out to twenty yards as a grouping unless you are using a rifled barrel and then you are dealing with random groupings. Still shotguns can be incredibly effective and shouldn't be discounted, I just like shooting rifles more. But shotguns and rifles both take a lot of practice to become proficient with and shotgun ammo is/was typically more expensive than rifle ammo. Unfortunately most rifle calibers are insanely expensive right now given the panic over the rights destroyers and their efforts. If I had to choose between my CETME or my Mossberg 930 for a bump in the night I'm going with the CETME. If the attacker has long enough to get intimated by the firearm, he has way too long to pull a trigger on his own gun if he has one. Me I'll sit in my bedroom and wait to see if he makes it past my three dogs. If he's still breathing and looking to cause me harm, I'll light him up once he gets past my door, no posing macho bullshit, just trigger pulling till the threat drops or I need to slap in a new mag or grab my STI Spartan 1911 .45 ACP. I'm not interested in intimidating an attacker, I only want to stop a threat, trying to intimidate an attacker who has no legal reason being in my home, kicking in my bedroom door, is not stopping a threat. It's inviting one.

lovmuffin -> RE: NRA Misrepresents Police Survey, Legislation (5/1/2013 9:41:20 PM)
Oh good grief DomKen, Have you ever tried to shoot anything at close range with a rifle ? Yes and frankly I'm not seeing how you miss even a small target but I guess you must be one of those experts who can hit something at 10 to 15 feet with a rifle. It is absolutely and unquestionable that a shotgun is better for almost every user. You're wasting time trying to defend some fool who tried to insist that the AR-15 is better for a woman because it has less recoil. Which is true but irrelevant. Far be it from me to waste my time questioning the wisdom and expertise of you and Biden. I guess it must be irrelevant that most women and even some men can't handle the recoil of a 12 gauge very well. The shotgun does not need to be accurately aimed in the way a rifle must be to hit the target and yes at 10 or 15 feet you must aim the rifle to hit a person and if you have no experience bringing it onto target at those ranges under stress you are very likely to miss (as anyone with a decent amount of experience with rifles would know). I guess all ya have to do with a shotgun is aim it inaccurately. I wonder how accurately you have to aim it at 15 feet with a slug or with 00 buck through a modified or full choke or maybe even a cylinder bore. Likely to miss with a rifle under stress at 10 to 15 feet ? I guess you would know because you and Biden have a decent amount of experience with rifles. As to the intimidation factor have some point a 12 gauge at you and see how that gaping tunnel makes you feel. Yeah I'll go try that tonight. Should I have them make it go "Shuuuck Shuuuuuk" too ?

TricklessMagic -> RE: NRA Misrepresents Police Survey, Legislation (5/1/2013 9:47:07 PM)
What's the point of practicing at shooting at a target that is less than twenty feet away. If you can drill the bull's eye at twenty feet you can do it at ten. Then again I shoot mostly steel reactive targets so I have to be at least twenty yards away for safety and even then that can be taking chances (caught a 7.62x25 Tokarev round in the chest as a ricochet, didn't break the skin but I got a little brush out of it).

DomKen -> RE: NRA Misrepresents Police Survey, Legislation (5/1/2013 9:50:55 PM)
I'm going to point out yet again that the question was which is better for a non expert. There is simply no question the shotgun is superior to any rifle at close ranges in stress situations. To claim otherwise is beyond absurd.

DomKen -> RE: NRA Misrepresents Police Survey, Legislation (5/1/2013 9:59:24 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: lovmuffin Oh good grief DomKen, Have you ever tried to shoot anything at close range with a rifle ? Yes and frankly I'm not seeing how you miss even a small target but I guess you must be one of those experts who can hit something at 10 to 15 feet with a rifle. In poor light under stress with a firearm you are not familiar with? Please stop pretending reality is your rambo fantasy. quote: Far be it from me to waste my time questioning the wisdom and expertise of you and Biden. I guess it must be irrelevant that most women and even some men can't handle the recoil of a 12 gauge very well. Who cares about recoil if you only need one shot and with a shotgun that is all you'll need. quote: I guess all ya have to do with a shotgun is aim it inaccurately. I wonder how accurately you have to aim it at 15 feet with a slug or with 00 buck through a modified or full choke or maybe even a cylinder bore. Likely to miss with a rifle under stress at 10 to 15 feet ? I guess you would know because you and Biden have a decent amount of experience with rifles. Don't know about Biden but I've been a shooter since I was 12. That includes qualifying at least marksman with the M-16, 9mm, M2HB and .45 while I was in the service. I've owned a variety of hunting rifles in various .30 and .22 calibers. I've shot hundreds or perhaps thousands of clay pigeons with a 12 gauge and for years I kept a short 10 gauge I got at a police auction for home defence. So yes you will have to accept I know the weapons in question and know what I'm talking about.

lovmuffin -> RE: NRA Misrepresents Police Survey, Legislation (5/1/2013 10:03:35 PM)
And I'll point out again as I has on so many other threads, you don't have a clue. Try reading TM's post, #44. He spells out a lot of details though I'm sure Biden would think he's full of shit.

TricklessMagic -> RE: NRA Misrepresents Police Survey, Legislation (5/1/2013 10:05:43 PM)
Really. I've been an NRA Certified Firearms instructor for over four years in rifle, shotgun, and pistol. Each person is unique and each firearm is unique. A Stoeger Upland side-by-side shotgun is not a Mossberg 930 and I've had women shoot both. Both do not want to shoot either again. But they will pickup the SKS and plink with it continuously while smiling and laughing. Again some newbies may take to shotguns quite well, but not all, I've yet to see one do it without a lot of practice and instruction. I have seen both men and women, and disfigured and/or crippled vets handle rifles quite well on their first go (for vets it's their first time firing a rifle after receiving their injuries). Rifles in .223 and 7.62x39 are soft shooting. And yes shot-for-shot shotguns are superior within twenty yards but if the shooter fears firing the weapon to begin with and won't practice with it out of discomfort or lack of desire, it can be more a liability than an aid. But hey DomKen you have all the answer in your mind. You seem to think all nonexperts are monolithic homogenous people without any variation. But anyone who actually has shot both rifles and shotguns, and has instructed folks on their use and handling, knows that a beginner will fair better with a pipsqueak rifle caliber (.223 or 7.62x39) right out of the gate typically. Granted a lot of it can depend on the bias of the instructor and their own personal feelings on the matter. But how do I love taking grown men, putting a reduced load 12 gauge 00' buckshot shell in the gun and watch them freak out and ask to keep shooting the rifle. quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen I'm going to point out yet again that the question was which is better for a non expert. There is simply no question the shotgun is superior to any rifle at close ranges in stress situations. To claim otherwise is beyond absurd.

lovmuffin -> RE: NRA Misrepresents Police Survey, Legislation (5/1/2013 10:45:20 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TricklessMagic Really. I've been an NRA Certified Firearms instructor for over four years in rifle, shotgun, and pistol. Each person is unique and each firearm is unique. A Stoeger Upland side-by-side shotgun is not a Mossberg 930 and I've had women shoot both. Both do not want to shoot either again. But they will pickup the SKS and plink with it continuously while smiling and laughing. Again some newbies may take to shotguns quite well, but not all, I've yet to see one do it without a lot of practice and instruction. I have seen both men and women, and disfigured and/or crippled vets handle rifles quite well on their first go (for vets it's their first time firing a rifle after receiving their injuries). Rifles in .223 and 7.62x39 are soft shooting. And yes shot-for-shot shotguns are superior within twenty yards but if the shooter fears firing the weapon to begin with and won't practice with it out of discomfort or lack of desire, it can be more a liability than an aid. But hey DomKen you have all the answer in your mind. You seem to think all nonexperts are monolithic homogenous people without any variation. But anyone who actually has shot both rifles and shotguns, and has instructed folks on their use and handling, knows that a beginner will fair better with a pipsqueak rifle caliber (.223 or 7.62x39) right out of the gate typically. Granted a lot of it can depend on the bias of the instructor and their own personal feelings on the matter. But how do I love taking grown men, putting a reduced load 12 gauge 00' buckshot shell in the gun and watch them freak out and ask to keep shooting the rifle. quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen I'm going to point out yet again that the question was which is better for a non expert. There is simply no question the shotgun is superior to any rifle at close ranges in stress situations. To claim otherwise is beyond absurd. Without taping a sponge to my shoulder and wearing a padded shooting vest, shooting my 12 gauge with 3/4" shells more than 15 times becomes painful with each additional shot and leaves big bruises on my shoulder. I prefer a 1911 for home defense and would generally recommend a .357 with .38 +p hollow points for less experienced shooters and absolutely some range time and instruction. A 12 gauge is probably the last thing I would recommend for a newbie who wants something for home self defense.

Kirata -> RE: NRA Misrepresents Police Survey, Legislation (5/1/2013 11:24:45 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen at 10 or 15 feet you must aim the rifle to hit a person and if you have no experience bringing it onto target at those ranges under stress you are very likely to miss (as anyone with a decent amount of experience with rifles would know). As anyone who has ever fucking picked up a fucking rifle fucking knows, you don't have to fucking sight-in a fucking man-sized fucking target at 15 fucking feet. Bringing a fucking rifle to bear in that fucking circumstance amounts to fucking pointing the fucking thing in the right fucking direction. (In memory of the Haytch house girls) K.

DomKen -> RE: NRA Misrepresents Police Survey, Legislation (5/2/2013 5:17:35 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Kirata quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen at 10 or 15 feet you must aim the rifle to hit a person and if you have no experience bringing it onto target at those ranges under stress you are very likely to miss (as anyone with a decent amount of experience with rifles would know). As anyone who has ever fucking picked up a fucking rifle fucking knows, you don't have to fucking sight-in a fucking man-sized fucking target at 15 fucking feet. Bringing a fucking rifle to bear in that fucking circumstance amounts to fucking pointing the fucking thing in the right fucking direction. (In memory of the Haytch house girls) Who said sight in? I sure as hell didn't. I said aim the rifle which is not the same thing. Try it sometime. Just grab up a rifle in bed and swing it around and try and hit a man size target somewhere vital without taking a few seconds to bring it on target (ie.e snap shooting). Now try the same thing with a 12 gauge. You will hit far more often with the shotgun.

DomKen -> RE: NRA Misrepresents Police Survey, Legislation (5/2/2013 5:27:47 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TricklessMagic And yes shot-for-shot shotguns are superior within twenty yards How many times did I have to write that before even one of you two acknowledged that simple fact? quote: but if the shooter fears firing the weapon to begin with and won't practice with it out of discomfort of lack of desire, it can be more a liability than an aid. That is true if all firearms and most people who buy firearms for home defence do not spend a great deal of time practicing with the weapon. Also if you truly can't handle a 12 gauge Mossberg does make a home defence .410. The 500 HS410 to be precise. I'm pretty sure even a 90 lb. girl afraid of loud noises could use that thing.

Hillwilliam -> RE: NRA Misrepresents Police Survey, Legislation (5/2/2013 5:43:13 AM)
Who in the hell are you people hanging around with that get hurt shooting a 12gauge? I started shooting skeet with a borrowed one when I was about 10-11 and well under 100#. If you don't get a good tight stock/sholder contact it'll hurt but that's why you practice. Before that, I had used a 20 but I got tired of my old man beating me on the range because he was throwing out so many more pellets LOL. In the house, I have a 20 double barrel. No buck, #2 3" magnums but I can still fire it with one hand. A good friend who spent considerable time in SE Asia crawling around in the delta mud said that after their "extesive field testing" #2 gave a better pattern for anything really close in. That load also prevents overpenetration. I trust his judgment.

fucktoyprincess -> RE: NRA Misrepresents Police Survey, Legislation (5/2/2013 7:46:11 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess FR Just a note on the various polls that people are citing in support of a variety of things - what do any of these polls tell us about how senators from gun-toting states are going to vote unless the poll was specific to that state?? And North Dakota and Alaska get the same number of senators as New York - despite the obvious difference in population. Oddly, on this matter, the senate is actually operating exactly as it was meant to - preventing small population states from having policies forced on them by more populous ones. Can someone point me to polls in the states where Democratic senators voted against the gun bill? (These would be the following: Arkansas, Montana, North Dakota, Alaska, and Nevada). In other words, what percentage of gun owners in those states think guns should be regulated. I suspect......not very many..... National polls are not actually helpful when trying to decipher the senate vote. PPP has that http://www.publicpolicypolling.com/main/2013/04/more-backlash-against-senators-on-gun-vote.html Thank you - this is actually much more helpful. Now, the political process needs to play out. If people care more about the guns issues than other issues facing the country - they need to elect a new senator in the next election. But again, this depends on how important gun control is in those states relative to other issues. I live in a city (New York) where gun control is considered a very, very important issue. But I know that even though there might be support for gun control in other places, they don't consider it even close to the top of the list relative to other issues. The issue is salient in some states because of local tragedies that have occurred. In other states there is still a bit of the "it won't happen here" mentality, so issues like agriculture, immigration, jobs, etc. may take precedence. It will be interesting to see if the drop in support of these senators will continue on through until the next election. As we know, voter memories can be short. On the issue of guns and polls here is this from today: http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/02/us/politics/poll-finds-strong-support-for-tightened-gun-laws-and-path-to-citizenship.html There is still some kind of disconnect on this issue going on with the electorate.....

Kirata -> RE: NRA Misrepresents Police Survey, Legislation (5/2/2013 7:51:05 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen Who said sight in? I sure as hell didn't. I said aim the rifle which is not the same thing. Try it sometime. Just grab up a rifle in bed and swing it around and try and hit a man size target somewhere vital without taking a few seconds to bring it on target (ie.e snap shooting). Now try the same thing with a 12 gauge. You will hit far more often with the shotgun. You said it. You said "aim". You aim a rifle using the sights. Point-shooting ("snap shooting") is something different; learning how to point the weapon at the spot where you're looking without aiming. Also, anyone who would miss a man-sized target with a rifle at that range would miss with a shotgun too, and not be able to get off follow-up shots as quickly as with (say) an AR. Additionally, the AR is both lighter and shorter, much shorter if it has a collapsible stock, and thus faster and easier to weild. Though personally, except for something like a Tromix-modded Saiga, I'd favor a .45 on all counts. K.

FunCouple5280 -> RE: NRA Misrepresents Police Survey, Legislation (5/2/2013 8:42:27 AM)
FR~ Despite having a home defense shotty, I think it is useless. You cannot get it quickly. Now this maybe relative to circumstance, but follow me here. I have a family, and the guns need to be locked up. A long gun, really any long gun ends up being inaccessible in a hurry when locked up. If someone comes into my house, I don't want to be dicking with a lock and tearing through a closet. A pistol is the way to go in my opinion. Safely ensconced in my speed safe, I have two guns, a surefire and an extra mag. Both have tritium night sights, one is a revolver (old reliable) and the other a 1911 with laser grip too. If it sounds like one asshole I grab the revolver, if multiple I go with the semi auto and dump the mag in my pocket. I also prefer the pistol while maneuvering around the house. But penetration really scares me the most. With family in the house, a shotty can really be a liability in my mind. With multiple projectiles flying in random directions, I don't want to injure someone I don't intend to. The pistol I don't worry much, as I load those special Air Marshal rounds for my home defense pieces. They disintegrate in walls and become non-lethal in a hurry. From a home defense class I took, the instructor liked the intimidation factor of a shotty when you cock it, but after that it changed. If you were proficient and big guy, sure use the shotgun. Otherwise, the fear of just pulling the trigger for someone could force a miss, and rapidly scanning rooms and moving through passageways could be slowed using a large gun. Two tips he gave, though, were for non-lethal de-escalation of the event. One was the flashlight. Blinding the perp with a really bright flashlight confuses the intruder and prevents them from engaging you effectively. The other was the laser sight. First it ensures you won't miss. In close range it give you the confidence to know what you are hitting even if you are not looking through the sights. Two, it lets the intruder know you aren't going to miss. Once you paint them with the beam, there is no second guessing the result of that first shot. And, if it is a grip sight you don't have to activate the laser till you are ready. Just so you aren't splashing a little red dot everywhere giving a heads up as to your location.

DomKen -> RE: NRA Misrepresents Police Survey, Legislation (5/2/2013 8:59:17 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Kirata quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen Who said sight in? I sure as hell didn't. I said aim the rifle which is not the same thing. Try it sometime. Just grab up a rifle in bed and swing it around and try and hit a man size target somewhere vital without taking a few seconds to bring it on target (ie.e snap shooting). Now try the same thing with a 12 gauge. You will hit far more often with the shotgun. You said it. You said "aim". You aim a rifle using the sights. Point-shooting ("snap shooting") is something different; learning how to point the weapon at the spot where you're looking without aiming. Also, anyone who would miss a man-sized target with a rifle at that range would miss with a shotgun too, and not be able to get off follow-up shots as quickly as with (say) an AR. Additionally, the AR is both lighter and shorter, much shorter if it has a collapsible stock, and thus faster and easier to weild. Though personally, except for something like a Tromix-modded Saiga, I'd favor a .45 on all counts. nonsense. Snap shooting is far easier with a shotgun (that's sort of why there is a sport involving shotguns and suprise flying targets). Shotguns can be much shorter than any AR. A pistol grip pump with a short tube (3 rounds) can be right down at the legal limit.

DomKen -> RE: NRA Misrepresents Police Survey, Legislation (5/2/2013 9:03:10 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FunCouple5280 FR~ Despite having a home defense shotty, I think it is useless. You cannot get it quickly. Now this maybe relative to circumstance, but follow me here. I have a family, and the guns need to be locked up. A long gun, really any long gun ends up being inaccessible in a hurry when locked up. If someone comes into my house, I don't want to be dicking with a lock and tearing through a closet. A pistol is the way to go in my opinion. Safely ensconced in my speed safe, I have two guns, a surefire and an extra mag. Both have tritium night sights, one is a revolver (old reliable) and the other a 1911 with laser grip too. If it sounds like one asshole I grab the revolver, if multiple I go with the semi auto and dump the mag in my pocket. I also prefer the pistol while maneuvering around the house. But penetration really scares me the most. With family in the house, a shotty can really be a liability in my mind. With multiple projectiles flying in random directions, I don't want to injure someone I don't intend to. The pistol I don't worry much, as I load those special Air Marshal rounds for my home defense pieces. They disintegrate in walls and become non-lethal in a hurry. From a home defense class I took, the instructor liked the intimidation factor of a shotty when you cock it, but after that it changed. If you were proficient and big guy, sure use the shotgun. Otherwise, the fear of just pulling the trigger for someone could force a miss, and rapidly scanning rooms and moving through passageways could be slowed using a large gun. Two tips he gave, though, were for non-lethal de-escalation of the event. One was the flashlight. Blinding the perp with a really bright flashlight confuses the intruder and prevents them from engaging you effectively. The other was the laser sight. First it ensures you won't miss. In close range it give you the confidence to know what you are hitting even if you are not looking through the sights. Two, it lets the intruder know you aren't going to miss. Once you paint them with the beam, there is no second guessing the result of that first shot. And, if it is a grip sight you don't have to activate the laser till you are ready. Just so you aren't splashing a little red dot everywhere giving a heads up as to your location. This is what I mean when I say the shotgun is superior for the person who isn't going to spend the time to get familiar with the weapon no matter what it is which is what the discussion is about. Although I really doubt birdshot pellets would penetrate sheet rock etc. except at very very close range and generally you wouldn't be firing it directly at a wall a couple of feet away.

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