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May Day 2013 - 5/1/2013 11:13:35 AM

vincentML

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Workers are in the streets to protest against imposed austerity in Madrid, Italy, Athens, and Istanbul. 100,000s of workers, teachers etc in Mexico filled the streets to protest President Zedillo's "harsh ecconomic emergency plan." In Peru President Humala announces a plan to take away rights from indigenous people in favor of mining interests. In Dhaka, Bangladesh thousands of workers march through the streets demanding the death penalty for the owner of an eight story building that collapsed, killing over 400 employees and injuring 2500 others who at best earned 25 cents an hour making garments for some high end name brands consumed in the West. In Africa and many if not most of the Asian nations 50% or more of young men are without work.

Meanwhile, the S&P 500 index has reached a new historical high. The Fat Cats are getting fatter.

Nothing new here. The workers of the world are caught in a Dickensonian nightmare listening to the far removed, faint laughter and music of a party in 1922 at the home of Jay Gatsby.

Hidden beneath the Randian world of the makers are the multitude of beggers and takers . . .the exploited workers who have nothing to take but what is permitted to trickle down to them. . . and that increasingly little.

This sea of wretched humanity is never in our sight until they strike out at us. But is all of the guilt for this sorry plight of humanity rightfully laid upon the Western Nations, or have International Money Markets and speculators overwhelmed the old Colonizers? Shouldn't we blame the bankers who's money travels with digital speed and obliterates national borders? And what of the corrupt politicians in these woe-begotten lands? Are they free of culpability for the poverty and death of their citizens? Where lies the blame for the greed that makes humanity mostly miserable?

Will it ever change?

Your thoughts please.

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RE: May Day 2013 - 5/1/2013 12:44:50 PM

FunCouple5280

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Don't buy sweatshop clothing, and encourage anyone you know to avoid it as well.

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RE: May Day 2013 - 5/1/2013 12:56:22 PM

WantsOfTheFlesh

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"mayday mayday the commiez iz comin..."

< Message edited by WantsOfTheFlesh -- 5/1/2013 1:07:18 PM >

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RE: May Day 2013 - 5/1/2013 1:13:33 PM

freedomdwarf1

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Nice idea FC.

Unfortunately, the factory owners and their respective governments will always be corrupt and those poor sweatshop workers are hardly ever likely to see anything good from not buying what they produce for the western world.

Typically, when orders start falling off, they just lay off workers.
If it gets too short, they just shut up shop completely and open up elsewhere and pay even lower wages until they can make enough profits.

So where does that leave those sweatshop workers?
Absolutely destitute with no income at all.
At least, prior to the lay-offs, they earned something to feed themselves and their children.

As much as I despise those factory owners for paying really shit wages, it's better than no work and starving.
Until the western world is able to weed out the corruption in the governments and the back-handers paid by the factory owners to the authorities to 'look the other way' and turn a blind eye to the exploitation, we won't see any improvement any time soon.

That said, on the flip-side of the coin, if they paid decent wages and had to raise the prices of their merchandise to maintain profit margins, many of us in the west wouldn't be able to afford to pay the price hike and they just wouldn't sell so many.
It's a catch-22 situation.

It's a bit like the coffee trade.
Sure, there are some good coffee growers out there and they have signed a 'fair trade' agreement so they get paid a decent price for their coffee.
Good for them.
But I can't afford Fair Trade coffee so if I want my coffe I buy the (much) cheaper stuff.
I can buy 3 or 4 bags of cheaper coffee for the price of a single bag of 'Fair Trade' coffee and that's all my budget can afford.

Many people are in the same boat.
A lot of higher prices in times of austerity can swing the supply & demand of most products.
I buy sweatshop brands because it's all I can afford.
If they put the prices up, I just wouldn't buy any at all.

So, as a good standpoint, not buying sweatshop brands looks to be a good idea - but it's not always practical.

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Post #: 4

RE: May Day 2013 - 5/1/2013 1:26:53 PM

FunCouple5280

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While I see your arguemunts and agree with them in principle.....I get sick and tired of hearing people whine about it while doing nothing. Yes we need to get rid of corruption as well as bring reforms to many backass 3rd world pits that dodge labor reforms. But, everyone can do something more than just whining about it.

If you can't afford the coffee, you can just go without. Do you NEED it? Not likely. Now if that is all you can manage at the moment, don't cry about the problem or don't cry when you get your way and can't afford it anymore. Yet have you looked at buying anything directly? Much of that crap is so expensive because you buy it through an overpriced retailer. This one of the reason I like farmer's markets, direct to consumer quality and no markup going to an unnecessary middleman

While you don't need to pay people US/EU style wages in places like India, you can always demand that if you buy imported crap that at least it was a fair wage for the area. So as to the OP maybe $1/hr (arbitrary, for sake of discussion) rather than $.25/hr, which would be a huge step up for these people. Yet, It would still mean cheap clothes and jobs, just a little more at the register and a lot more for the worker's families.

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RE: May Day 2013 - 5/1/2013 1:35:10 PM

fucktoyprincess

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FR

Where lies the blame?

People want stuff. Lots of stuff. For as cheaply as they can possibly purchase it. Unless it has a luxury logo on it. Then they are willing to pay a ridiculous amount for it. Regardless, the more cheaply things can be made, either the more cheaply they can be sold, OR the more profit that can be made.

But ultimately, it is the buying public that drives this economic engine.

We can start by asking why do people need so much stuff?

Also, it used to be the case that you could actually find things made in places other than China, Bangladesh, etc. But that is becoming increasingly difficult, even when purchasing brands that on their surface seem to be very "American" or "European". Most things now are "styled" in the U.S. or Europe, but "made" in countries where the labor pool comes much more cheaply. It used to be that you could vote with your dollar and try to buy things from places where you felt labor was not mistreated. But that is really hard to do in the current marketplace.

With that said, the past year, I have purposely tried not to spend money on "stuff" and manage with what I have. It is astounding how once one decides one is not going to feed the machine, how one can actually manage with what one has. I'm choosing to spend more of my income on real estate and services (that are obviously local). Consumers can just say no. btw, I love fashion - love it. So another dress, another pair of heels - I always feel I "need" it. But I don't like what has happened to that market. I don't buy hand made rugs either.....because I just really don't believe in child labor.

Does anyone have any evidence to show that our consumption patterns actually ultimately help workers in foreign countries (i.e., continuing to buy cheap goods)? Over time, do wages go up? Does child labor get reduced? Just curious.

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RE: May Day 2013 - 5/1/2013 1:42:27 PM

freedomdwarf1

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The problem is FC, why the fuck should I and my family go without just to support a fanciful idea??
It's not like we buy loads of non-essential luxury goods either.
We buy essentials, frequently unbranded goods because of the price.

Sure, if all the western world clubbed together and stopped importing the sweatshop stuff, maybe they will learn. But until then, standing on a soapbox as an individual where your voice isn't heard by those that can make a difference isn't going to achieve much except a sore throat.

Our governments and trade ministers need to put pressure on those other corrupt regimes that allow this to happen.
Until they do that, we are just pissing in the wind - needlessly.

Did you see me complaining about it??
No, I didn't.
I'm quite happy to buy sweatshop merchandise all the while it is available.
When the supply runs out, I don't buy any more. Simples

I absolutely refuse to pay the exorbitant fat-cat profits of those much higher-priced goods.
Why??
Because it's not the workers that benefit those high prices - only the factory owners and the middle-men.

When we have completely overhauled the capitalist system so that everyone gets a fair share of the profits, I'll reconsider my stance.
Until then, I'm quite happy thank you.

< Message edited by freedomdwarf1 -- 5/1/2013 1:45:38 PM >

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RE: May Day 2013 - 5/1/2013 1:47:51 PM

vincentML

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quote:

Does anyone have any evidence to show that our consumption patterns actually ultimately help workers in foreign countries (i.e., continuing to buy cheap goods)? Over time, do wages go up? Does child labor get reduced? Just curious.

In Bangledesh the minimum wage for garment workers was recently doubled. And so they are no longer earning 14 cents an hour.

Still beneath the poverty rate tho.

Good post, FTP. Thank you

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Post #: 8

RE: May Day 2013 - 5/1/2013 1:53:48 PM

FunCouple5280

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I am glad you are comfortable with it and don't care. You are one of the few honest people out there then.

quote:

Sure, if all the western world clubbed together and stopped importing the sweatshop stuff, maybe they will learn. But until then, standing on a soapbox as an individual where your voice isn't heard by those that can make a difference isn't going to achieve much except a sore throat.

Our governments and trade ministers need to put pressure on those other corrupt regimes that allow this to happen.
Until they do that, we are just pissing in the wind - needlessly.

You will wait for the end of days for them to make a change. True one person can hardly make a difference, but if a million people throw their hands up becuase they can't make a difference they are not seeing that there are a million of them. If that is the position Rosa Parks had, the civil rights movement would have been held back. While we should demand something from our leaders, we must demand something of ourselves as well. It is more than paying lip service to the problem.

quote:

I absolutely refuse to pay the exorbitant fat-cat profits of those much higher-priced goods.
Why??
Because it's not the workers that benefit those high prices - only the factory owners and the middle-men.

That is true of designer stuff, but not when you are buying from the farmer or other alternative sources of goods. While you may not always have the option it pays to find out if you do and then take it. The more people that do it the more it becomes convenient.

quote:

When we have completely overhauled the capitalist system so that everyone gets a fair share of the profits, I'll reconsider my stance.
Until then, I'm quite happy thank you.

While I agree with fair pay equitable to services rendered, I am not sure what you mean by fair share of the profits..... There is a difference between capitalism and socialism.

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Post #: 9

RE: May Day 2013 - 5/1/2013 1:55:02 PM

hlen5

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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

Where lies the blame for the greed that makes humanity mostly miserable?

Will it ever change?

No it won't change.

It starts with each individual. When one shops at WalMart one is going for cheaper goods manufactured as cheaply as possible. We are all culpable, from the bargain hunter, to the industrialist that convinces him/herself that paying overseas workers pennies is gainfully employing them.

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RE: May Day 2013 - 5/1/2013 1:57:17 PM

FunCouple5280

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quote:

ORIGINAL: hlen5
It starts with each individual. When one shops at WalMart one is going for cheaper goods manufactured as cheaply as possible. We are all culpable, from the bargain hunter, to the industrialist that convinces him/herself that paying overseas workers pennies is gainfully employing them.

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RE: May Day 2013 - 5/1/2013 1:58:30 PM

hlen5

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Thank You

.

ETA: This seems apropos to the conversation.

http://news.yahoo.com/shoppers-face-hurdles-finding-ethical-clothing-193843423.html

< Message edited by hlen5 -- 5/1/2013 2:16:32 PM >

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RE: May Day 2013 - 5/1/2013 2:17:21 PM

freedomdwarf1

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quote:

ORIGINAL: FunCouple5280

I am glad you are comfortable with it and don't care. You are one of the few honest people out there then.

Not that I don't care, just that my circumstances are quite bad as it is.
And as I said earlier, many people are in the same boat in these times of austerity.

Maybe you aren't and can afford to make those sort of choices.
Many don't have that luxury - not even in this modern western world.
Tell those US citizens that are on the streets because they lost their homes that they should make a stand and not buy cheap merchandise made from sweatshops. When you and your kids are freezing cold, don't have money for decent food or a hot drink, try telling them they must not buy these things because the principal is that if there are enough people making a stand it will help those overseas.
I can well imagine the response you'd get!
Probably something along the lines of "fuck off!! Why should I care? Me and my kids come first.".
If they did make that stand and not buy because of the foreign situation, who would be the first person to say that they are being irresponsible parents for not providing for their children?

quote:

ORIGINAL: FunCouple5280

quote:

Sure, if all the western world clubbed together and stopped importing the sweatshop stuff, maybe they will learn. But until then, standing on a soapbox as an individual where your voice isn't heard by those that can make a difference isn't going to achieve much except a sore throat.

Our governments and trade ministers need to put pressure on those other corrupt regimes that allow this to happen.
Until they do that, we are just pissing in the wind - needlessly.

You will wait for the end of days for them to make a change. True one person can hardly make a difference, but if a million people throw their hands up becuase they can't make a difference they are not seeing that there are a million of them. If that is the position Rosa Parks had, the civil rights movement would have been held back. While we should demand something from our leaders, we must demand something of ourselves as well. It is more than paying lip service to the problem.

Unfortunately, the western world is usually very appathetic when it comes to 'other people' and their plights.
You don't need a million people - you need BILLIONS of them to all stand up and shout.
You don't seriously think that's going to happen do you??

quote:

ORIGINAL: FunCouple5280

quote:

I absolutely refuse to pay the exorbitant fat-cat profits of those much higher-priced goods.
Why??
Because it's not the workers that benefit those high prices - only the factory owners and the middle-men.

That is true of designer stuff, but not when you are buying from the farmer or other alternative sources of goods. While you may not always have the option it pays to find out if you do and then take it. The more people that do it the more it becomes convenient.

This is where you are quite lucky in various places throughout the US.
Farmers markets are very few and far between in Europe because of the legislation.

And, FWIW, it's not just the designer stuff - the problem is inherent throughout the supply chain for most products.
If I had a farmers market near me, I would use it. But we don't, so I can't.

quote:

ORIGINAL: FunCouple5280

quote:

When we have completely overhauled the capitalist system so that everyone gets a fair share of the profits, I'll reconsider my stance.
Until then, I'm quite happy thank you.

While I agree with fair pay equitable to services rendered, I am not sure what you mean by fair share of the profits..... There is a difference between capitalism and socialism.

By fair share, I mean those at the top taking less of the cream and sharing it out amongst the workers that make those profits.
I'm not talking socialism here - just spread the profits a little more evenly with the workforce.
In many case they can double or even tripple the wages and still make a very comfortable profit.
Why don't they do that??
Because they are greedy bastards and they also have to pay-off the authorities and government officials to keep them off their backs.

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Post #: 13

RE: May Day 2013 - 5/1/2013 2:19:59 PM

fucktoyprincess

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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

Does anyone have any evidence to show that our consumption patterns actually ultimately help workers in foreign countries (i.e., continuing to buy cheap goods)? Over time, do wages go up? Does child labor get reduced? Just curious.

In Bangledesh the minimum wage for garment workers was recently doubled. And so they are no longer earning 14 cents an hour. Still beneath the poverty rate tho.

Good post, FTP. Thank you

Okay, so at this rate, how many decades before they are earning a fair wage?

People need to shift their consumption patterns to local things. Buy less stuff. Buy more services and food grown locally (yes, go to your local farmers' market, etc.). Invest in real estate (either by taking more of your income to put into rent/mortgage or by actually investing in real estate investment vehicles).

I understand people need to buy necessities. And I understand a certain amount of "stuff" is, in fact necessary. But beyond that minimum, really, it is just more stuff.

Isolating the fashion industry for a moment, I do have the following to say. Part of the issue is that in order to make money, the industry must "change" what is fashionable from one moment to the next. And they are very successful at marketing the new looks to make people feel truly embarrassed to be caught dead in out of date stuff. Last years wide leg jeans don't look so great when everyone is running around in skinny jeans. And now we have skinny jean capris for the summer. The result is that people feel pressure to buy the latest look - and everyone does it, after all how many people walk around in leisure suits or 70s wide ties anymore? The problem is though, that before, styles would change over longer time frames - now, it seems every season the fashion world is dictating some new look.

Then, I will isolate two other areas where I feel we've gone a little crazy - home decorating and childrens' toys. What is fashionable for the home also changes frequently. And children today grow up with waaaaaaay too many toys.

Again, how much "stuff" does one "need"?

How do we handle living in a world where advertising creates "wants" that are disguised to look like "needs"?

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RE: May Day 2013 - 5/1/2013 2:28:31 PM

FunCouple5280

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quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

This is where you are quite lucky in various places throughout the US.
Farmers markets are very few and far between in Europe because of the legislation.

And, FWIW, it's not just the designer stuff - the problem is inherent throughout the supply chain for most products.
If I had a farmers market near me, I would use it. But we don't, so I can't.

I have seen a number of communities here that have sprung up around the ideas of sustainability and local economic growth. there are benefits to economic freedom as well

quote:

By fair share, I mean those at the top taking less of the cream and sharing it out amongst the workers that make those profits.
I'm not talking socialism here - just spread the profits a little more evenly with the workforce.
In many case they can double or even tripple the wages and still make a very comfortable profit.
Why don't they do that??
Because they are greedy bastards and they also have to pay-off the authorities and government officials to keep them off their backs.

That has less to do with regulation in my mind. It is more about maintaining smaller businesses and more privately held ones as the norm and preventing the monopolistic conglomerates and public traded nightmares from soaking everything up. But yes it would be nice

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RE: May Day 2013 - 5/1/2013 2:45:31 PM

subrob1967

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FR

Don't you people have jobs? Get to work damn it!

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RE: May Day 2013 - 5/1/2013 2:57:08 PM

freedomdwarf1

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quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

Does anyone have any evidence to show that our consumption patterns actually ultimately help workers in foreign countries (i.e., continuing to buy cheap goods)? Over time, do wages go up? Does child labor get reduced? Just curious.

In Bangledesh the minimum wage for garment workers was recently doubled. And so they are no longer earning 14 cents an hour. Still beneath the poverty rate tho.

Good post, FTP. Thank you

Okay, so at this rate, how many decades before they are earning a fair wage?

It also depends on many other factors as well as just 'income'.
If you could rent/buy somewhere decent to live for just $40 a month, then what you call a fair wage wouldn't be the same as for living in the US where the same property would cost you $1200.

quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess
People need to shift their consumption patterns to local things. Buy less stuff. Buy more services and food grown locally (yes, go to your local farmers' market, etc.). Invest in real estate (either by taking more of your income to put into rent/mortgage or by actually investing in real estate investment vehicles).

An awful lot of people don't have the resources to buy into real estate.

quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess
I understand people need to buy necessities. And I understand a certain amount of "stuff" is, in fact necessary. But beyond that minimum, really, it is just more stuff.

I quite agree.
But when you are only able to afford 'the minimum', the option to buy 'more stuff' just doesn't get considered.

quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess
Isolating the fashion industry for a moment, I do have the following to say. Part of the issue is that in order to make money, the industry must "change" what is fashionable from one moment to the next. And they are very successful at marketing the new looks to make people feel truly embarrassed to be caught dead in out of date stuff. Last years wide leg jeans don't look so great when everyone is running around in skinny jeans. And now we have skinny jean capris for the summer. The result is that people feel pressure to buy the latest look - and everyone does it, after all how many people walk around in leisure suits or 70s wide ties anymore? The problem is though, that before, styles would change over longer time frames - now, it seems every season the fashion world is dictating some new look.

The fashion industry has a lot to answer for.

quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess
Then, I will isolate two other areas where I feel we've gone a little crazy - home decorating and childrens' toys. What is fashionable for the home also changes frequently. And children today grow up with waaaaaaay too many toys.

Again, how much "stuff" does one "need"?

I haven't bought toys and 'stuff' for my kids for years and years.
Every birthday, xmas, and other special days, are just ordinary days for us.

Decorating? We don't do that.
I haven't done any decorating since before the turn of the century - about 13 years or more.
As long as the walls aren't falling down or the windows aren't falling out - it'll do.
I don't need it to look like a show room or a palace or sport the latest colour scheme.
As long as I can pay the rent and it keeps us dry and out of the elements... We'll manage without new paint.

quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess
How do we handle living in a world where advertising creates "wants" that are disguised to look like "needs"?

We just stick to the needs - wants are just added to the list of things we can't afford to buy.

I am not alone when I say my income is less than half of what it was 6 years ago and the bills have more than tripled in that time. There is no longer any 'spare money' for those luxuries that we used to buy regularly - everything is a juggle of buying just the necesseties of life. We haven't bought any alcohol for about 4 years now. We no longer buy flowers for the table. We buy cheap cuts of meat, cheap veggies and cheap-brand bread. The last time I had any new clothes was when my step-daughter bought me a polo shirt for xmas 2010. Other than that, I haven't bought any new clothes for myself or anyone in the family for at least 7-8 years - not even the obligatory socks for xmas!
The other week we went 7 days without hot water or heating or any food shopping; we struggled on what we had left over in the cupboards. This week isn't going to be much better either although I think I can juggle some cash into the gas meter for heating if I don't buy coffee or milk or potatoes/veg or any meat.

And you talk about investing in more real estate?? Pffffttttt!! Not a snowballs chance!

Maybe this is where many in the US don't realise just how well-off they are compared to other places.
Even in good old blighty, those in the middle-class bracket are finding it quite a challenge these days.
Those on the lower rungs are definitely finding it bloody hard just to keep on living properly.

quote:

ORIGINAL: subrob1967
FR

Don't you people have jobs? Get to work damn it!

I would - if I could!!
The jobs that pay anything near a livable wage just aren't out there.
Part-time, yes. But you couldn't survive on what they pay.
In these days of austerity, many jobs have been completely axed or out-sourced.
Factories and businesses are closing down every day.
The last survey I saw showed that for every measly job advertised there were over 1500 applicants scrambling for it - even if it was shit wages and crap working conditions.

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Post #: 17

RE: May Day 2013 - 5/1/2013 3:17:17 PM

FunCouple5280

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quote:

ORIGINAL: subrob1967

FR

Don't you people have jobs? Get to work damn it!

Same could be said to you! protecting and serving what?

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Post #: 18

RE: May Day 2013 - 5/1/2013 3:48:51 PM

fucktoyprincess

Posts: 2337
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freedomdwarf1, I sympathize with your situation - but my post is directed at the large majority of Americans who remain employed and living a lifestyle well beyond their means. So while your situation is representative of a certain (sadly growing) percentage of the population, it does NOT represent the majority. And it is the spending patterns of the majority that are driving some of these issues. For every family out there like yours, I would venture a guess that there are at least 2-3 that are overspending on "stuff". And again, this is ultimately about the numbers. I realize this doesn't make your day to day existence any easier, but I think my comments are truly not directed to people in your situation. Please take care.

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Post #: 19

RE: May Day 2013 - 5/1/2013 9:22:04 PM

Marini

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quote:

Workers are in the streets to protest against imposed austerity in Madrid, Italy, Athens, and Istanbul. 100,000s of workers, teachers etc in Mexico filled the streets to protest President Zedillo's "harsh ecconomic emergency plan." In Peru President Humala announces a plan to take away rights from indigenous people in favor of mining interests. In Dhaka, Bangladesh thousands of workers march through the streets demanding the death penalty for the owner of an eight story building that collapsed, killing over 400 employees and injuring 2500 others who at best earned 25 cents an hour making garments for some high end name brands consumed in the West. In Africa and many if not most of the Asian nations 50% or more of young men are without work.
These are also the stats for many youth 16-25 in urban area's of the US, also.

Meanwhile, the S&P 500 index has reached a new historical high. The Fat Cats are getting fatter.

Nothing new here. The workers of the world are caught in a Dickensonian nightmare listening to the far removed, faint laughter and music of a party in 1922 at the home of Jay Gatsby.

Good analogy, but I stand by the Joads/Grapes of Wrath, myself.

Hidden beneath the Randian world of the makers are the multitude of beggers and takers . . .the exploited workers who have nothing to take but what is permitted to trickle down to them. . . and that increasingly little.

This sea of wretched humanity is never in our sight until they strike out at us. But is all of the guilt for this sorry plight of humanity rightfully laid upon the Western Nations, or have International Money Markets and speculators overwhelmed the old Colonizers? Shouldn't we blame the bankers who's money travels with digital speed and obliterates national borders? And what of the corrupt politicians in these woe-begotten lands? Are they free of culpability for the poverty and death of their citizens? Where lies the blame for the greed that makes humanity mostly miserable?

Will it ever change?

Your thoughts please.

The rich are getting richer, many of the middle class are free falling into the lower class, and many of the poor are getting poorer.

I think the situation will "change" incrementally, but the question is, "How long is it going to take for situations like this to "change" in a manner that will benefit large groups of people?

Another question is, "What will it take/sacrifices/revolutions/and at what cost", for substantial shifts or changes to occur?

This is a shining example of the "global market/globalization".

We are seeing large numbers of disenfranchised/marginalized/exploited workers, and growing numbers of impoverished and poor people all over the world!
It was the best of times/it was the worst of times.
Great examples of globalization/global markets/free markets and capitalism!
Happy May Day workers around the world!

< Message edited by Marini -- 5/1/2013 9:35:38 PM >

_____________________________

As always, To EACH their Own.
"And as we let our own light shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same. "
Nelson Mandela
Life-long Democrat, not happy at all with Democratic Party.
NOT a Republican/Moderate and free agent

(in reply to vincentML)

Post #: 20

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