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RE: Hitler, Japan, and WWII - 6/28/2006 12:09:25 PM   
Termyn8or


Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline 		John;

OK, I must admit to not knowing that Japan is still Nippon, or Nihon. I guess I didn't know when the name changed because it had not.

The missile situation is that we got range, but they got speed. Jane's pocket book of missiles ? lol. Thing is, over there they don't need ICBMs, they are a bit closer together.

Speer was not calling the shots, have you a quote of Hitler's to the effect that the US was to be a target ?

I really don't mind you picking apart my views, not at all.

Thing is, about the RADAR at Pearl Harbor and NORAD on 9/11, it did not work. The attacks were a success. I don't care whether the guy who was supposed to be watching the screen was out having a smoke, or what. The bombs fell and there was no scramble.

T

(in reply to Rule)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: Hitler, Japan, and WWII - 6/28/2006 3:05:28 PM   
FangsNfeet


Posts: 3758
Joined: 12/3/2004
Status: offline 		The attack on Pearl Harbor was a Tactical Success but a Failed Mission. The goal was to destroy the carriers. When Yamamoto found out that the carriers had not been sunk due to them being out on a routine drill, he said the war was already lost.

_____________________________

I'm Godzilla and you're Japan

(in reply to SteadyOnChaps)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: Hitler, Japan, and WWII - 6/28/2006 3:26:40 PM   
SilentHunter


Posts: 149
Joined: 10/19/2005
Status: offline 		Nice idea, total Bullshit, and believe me thats being polite, basically Japan wanted the resources that they were being denied by the USA, so they drew the US into (what they thought) a short term conflict, batter them, leave them reeeling and pretty much defenceless, and walk into the rubber and oil producing countries in what is now called South East Asia, and they would have got away with it, if the Americans hadn't had all their Flattops were out of Pearl. Japan had a similar pact with Germany, that Britain had with Poland, so the fact Hitler declared war on the US, so sayeth the lord (well Sandhurst where i was taught it, Like West Point to you Americans)

_____________________________

You can all kiss my arse ............. later lol.

See I am right, hey where did everyone go?

I tend to say things as they are, some don't like it .... Too Bad

(in reply to Alumbrado)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: Hitler, Japan, and WWII - 6/28/2006 4:28:15 PM   
JohnWarren


Posts: 3807
Joined: 3/18/2005
From: Delray Beach, FL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SilentHunter

Nice idea, total Bullshit, and believe me thats being polite, basically Japan wanted the resources that they were being denied by the USA, so they drew the US into (what they thought) a short term conflict, batter them, leave them reeeling and pretty much defenceless, and walk into the rubber and oil producing countries in what is now called South East Asia, and they would have got away with it, if the Americans hadn't had all their Flattops were out of Pearl. Japan had a similar pact with Germany, that Britain had with Poland, so the fact Hitler declared war on the US, so sayeth the lord (well Sandhurst where i was taught it, Like West Point to you Americans)


Sorry, the Axis treaty was a defensive agreement.  The US would have had to attack Japan first for it to come into play.  You'll recall the "Polish attack on the German radio station" Hitler had to arrange before attacking Poland so he could claim self-defense.  Pearl Harbor rendered the Axis treaty mute.

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(in reply to SilentHunter)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: Hitler, Japan, and WWII - 6/28/2006 4:31:16 PM   
SilentHunter


Posts: 149
Joined: 10/19/2005
Status: offline 		Very true, my bad

_____________________________

You can all kiss my arse ............. later lol.

See I am right, hey where did everyone go?

I tend to say things as they are, some don't like it .... Too Bad

(in reply to JohnWarren)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: Hitler, Japan, and WWII - 6/28/2006 4:37:09 PM   
JohnWarren


Posts: 3807
Joined: 3/18/2005
From: Delray Beach, FL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SilentHunter

Very true, my bad


No problem... those old treaties got pretty complex.  They also had a lot of "excape clauses."  I just wish a few of the countries at the beginning of WWI had said "Wait a minute, I think we'll sit this one out.

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(in reply to SilentHunter)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: Hitler, Japan, and WWII - 6/28/2006 9:40:44 PM   
Termyn8or


Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline 		John Warren;

I did actually post a reply, but apparently it did not work.

I must admit that in that post I did try to find the edge. I tried to provoke thought and thought provoking posts.

I can deal with multiple conclusions to a given set of facts. In that post I used any and all conclusions that were the most diametrically opposed to the norm.

Stepping up to the plate here, you made your point. You rebutted some of my points, quite effectiviely I might add, but there remain those loose edges. I'll ring it up but it will have to wait, I have to work tomorrow and it is late.

Jane's pocket guide to missiles ? That is rich. LOL

Good to know you.

T

(in reply to Rule)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: Hitler, Japan, and WWII - 6/28/2006 10:04:10 PM   
JohnWarren


Posts: 3807
Joined: 3/18/2005
From: Delray Beach, FL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or
Jane's pocket guide to missiles ? That is rich. LOL

Good to know you.

T


It's part of my professional library although I only update it once every couple of years as the Jane's collection is a bit pricy

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(in reply to Termyn8or)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: Hitler, Japan, and WWII - 6/29/2006 7:13:21 AM   
Alumbrado


Posts: 5560
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SilentHunter

Nice idea, total Bullshit, and believe me thats being polite, basically Japan wanted the resources that they were being denied by the USA, so they drew the US into (what they thought) a short term conflict, batter them, leave them reeeling and pretty much defenceless, and walk into the rubber and oil producing countries in what is now called South East Asia, and they would have got away with it, if the Americans hadn't had all their Flattops were out of Pearl. Japan had a similar pact with Germany, that Britain had with Poland, so the fact Hitler declared war on the US, so sayeth the lord (well Sandhurst where i was taught it, Like West Point to you Americans)


A shame that they didn't teach you anything at Sandhurst, you might have actually learned a little about this subject, and not made such a dishonest fool of yourself as to call my comments bullshit, and then repeat them as your own, along with the bollocks about 'treaties' that you've obviously never even read.

You may consider yourself both pwned, and plonked.



.

.

(in reply to SilentHunter)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: Hitler, Japan, and WWII - 6/29/2006 7:59:48 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline 		Like all history, a lot depends from where you start from and ones perception. Japan would say its imperialist goals were no different to what the west was doing and had been doing for over 100 years. Britain entered WWI under the pretence of a treaty with Belgium but it really didn't have to and Britain's entry expanded a continental war into a world war.

Countries largely interpret history to feel good about themselves and facts are inevitably selectively used to support ones case.

(in reply to Alumbrado)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: Hitler, Japan, and WWII - 6/29/2006 5:38:16 PM   
knees2you


Posts: 2336
Joined: 3/15/2004
Status: offline 		Hitler had the same Problem
as Nepolean did.
 
Going into Russia in the Winter.
 
Hitler was just suppose to look good,
Not actually run the Country.
 
Always, Ant

(in reply to Rule)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: Hitler, Japan, and WWII - 6/30/2006 5:29:25 AM   
badpaliden


Posts: 96
Joined: 4/18/2005
Status: offline 		It is so sad to see how poorly we have taught our children about the lessons we had to learn the hard way. The amount of guff and bluster, based on half truths  and unknown facts of well known world history.. To think  My hard earned tax money paid for this schooling. I have read this entire thread, and have seen only a couple of responces that were based on known world facts, not conjecture.The thread was about japan and germany and why  they were allies.. not the rest of this drivel. It is well documented  that japans war in china was the cause of their being sanctioned from the supplies they needed to continue their aggresions in china. (where the horrors done there make the germans look like pikers!!! by the way!) As stated japan gambeled on knocking out the  US navy  in the strike on pearl. Thus alowing them to become entrenched in the southern islands.  The MATERIALS  were the main goal. When it was made clear that the US was not going to lift the sanctions , but wanted to stay out of the war. Japan allied its self with the FOUR allies of the prewar days.. germany, italy,being  the ones japan signed with. russsia was signed to germany . (japan and russia were and still are unfriendly to a degree with each other ,because of island /land disputes around the bering/artic seas)  I reffer you to the postings of  Meatclever,Dtesmoac,Alumbrado ,and viled.  Again most of this is WELL know, and was/is taught in school.

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stolen from slavish..."My ESP's broken and it nullifies my mind-reading abilities. I could've gotten the extended warranty but it was three hundred bucks and it didn't seem worth it at the time."

(in reply to Rule)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: Hitler, Japan, and WWII - 6/30/2006 5:39:46 AM   
badpaliden


Posts: 96
Joined: 4/18/2005
Status: offline 		I sit here embarassed , from a puter glitch. For some reason, I only got the first page of this thread, and when I posted my reply I found where there was futher discussion, from the majors involved. I will stand by my feelings of todays schooling on world history , and events tho.

_____________________________

stolen from slavish..."My ESP's broken and it nullifies my mind-reading abilities. I could've gotten the extended warranty but it was three hundred bucks and it didn't seem worth it at the time."

(in reply to badpaliden)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: Hitler, Japan, and WWII - 6/30/2006 5:55:34 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline 		As I pointed out, it all depends where you start your history from. Starting at the Japanese invasion of China makes it appear Japan had out of the blue decided to expand. I pointed out that Japan's decision to modernise and militarise went back to what is known in Japan as the humiliation of the 'unequal treaties' imposed on them by the USA around 1870 and later other countries. Britain being the first to impose an 'unequal treaty' on China. Japan decided the only way not to become a western colony was to have a western style empire. That started the period of Japanese history that ended with Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

(in reply to badpaliden)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Hitler, Japan, and WWII - 7/2/2006 5:31:46 AM   
Dtesmoac


Posts: 565
Joined: 6/22/2006
Status: offline 		Some inmteresting expansion of the thread since my last visit...and some interesting "open views" ... lol .... on who has the right version of history  ...... to illistrate a point  .....  American Revolutionary War  / American War of Independence  ......  brave group of locals win independence ..... small part of a wider global war which saw France, Spain & Netherlands...pitted against Britain ...... Yes I am being deliberately controversial at this time of year .....  I'm in US for 18 months and prior to that had no real knowledge of the conflict, above interpretations are all from US school books my children have. There are very few "facts" in history.....there is a lot of circumstantial evidence.
To the US  happy 4th July holiday

(in reply to meatcleaver)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: Hitler, Japan, and WWII - 7/2/2006 5:52:35 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline 		Yep. It all depends on which way you look through the telescope.

(in reply to Dtesmoac)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Hitler, Japan, and WWII - 7/2/2006 6:16:42 AM   
Termyn8or


Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline 		Did you ever play the game Risk ?

The board is a surreal map of the world, and the players are governments. Those little plastic pieces on the board are us.

I am not a master at Risk, but I'm not too bad. I think when you play it you get just a glimpse of what those in power seek. You also see by world events that our importance is reduced to that of those plastic peices, called armies.

None of this shit had to happen. None of it.

Why did Japan ally themselves with Germany ? Let me tell you, if I were the leader of a foreign country I would never ever ally my country with the US. I would rather we die as a Race than to do that. Better to die good than live evil.

As a Man I make many compromises to survive, but that is this situation. To stand tall and firm against US hubris, like Chavez-Frias and Castro is proof to the world that the US government is not God. How the fuck can we influence a world war in a very big way, take over Iraq and not be able to get rid of a relative mosquito like Castro ?

The answer is the people. Nobody wants us around, nobody wanted the Germans around. Nobody wanted the Japanese around.

Why were they allies ? Simple, so simple. Why are the US and England allies ? Simple.

It is the quest for domination, denounced by all who embrace it. Ironic ? Not really, if you want to be top dog, you need to discourage other possible top dogs.

Plain and simple.

T

(in reply to Dtesmoac)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: Hitler, Japan, and WWII - 7/2/2006 10:23:36 PM   
Dtesmoac


Posts: 565
Joined: 6/22/2006
Status: offline 		To badpaliden - I suspect that none of your hard earned tax money paid for my education :) ....... "and your  significant point is?      The few facts you state are already in the thread .....MATERIALS / knocking out the US Navy etc.... the bluster concerning tax , half truths, & unknown facts  waffle about taxe and conjecture versus known facts appears to....contribute to "the rest of this drivel"......

To all - anyone have data on what proportion of the Japanese War effort was focused on Mainland Asia i.e. China, Southeast Asia and what proportion to the Maritime and Islands of the pacific?
Also anyone have handy - most reliable data on casualties for the Eastern Theatre, I have a set of data for some countries but not Japan?   .....   of course different people / counries spin, adds or subtracts figs from their records ......but below are the averages for the ones I have seen
Soviet Union 25 milllion dead
Germany 6 million dead
Britain and Commonwealth 420,000 dead
United States 292,000
Poland 6.5 million dead - up to 3 million Jews
China?
Japan?

Lies, damn lies, statistics.......and WELL KNOWN historical facts. ........smile when you read the thread....this is for fun!!  ...   unlike dieing in a war ...... ps...... my dad told me about his experience of being bombed in the war....some are hert renching and some down right funny......



(in reply to badpaliden)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Hitler, Japan, and WWII - 7/2/2006 10:24:41 PM   
Dtesmoac


Posts: 565
Joined: 6/22/2006
Status: offline 		I stand convicted of not reading your next entry ......  if appropriate appologies.......

(in reply to badpaliden)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Hitler, Japan, and WWII - 7/2/2006 10:34:49 PM   
Dtesmoac


Posts: 565
Joined: 6/22/2006
Status: offline 		.........mmm...............I like reading your additions..... but damned if I understand them ........democracy is the worst form of government....unfortunately all the others so far invented are even worse..... not wanting the Germans or Japanese around did not remove their presence......

(in reply to Termyn8or)
Profile   Post #: 40
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