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RE: What actions , if any, should I take? - 5/6/2013 8:09:05 AM   
OsideGirl


Posts: 14441
Joined: 7/1/2005
From: United States
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder

quote:

My understanding is that they did indeed say no and the continuation was not consensual.


Nowhere did it say they all said "no". They all just said they were raped. For all we know they all decided afterwards they regretted what they did or he pissed them off because they didn't like the way he played or found out he is a player or something else. Who knows. But if you can find anywhere where they said "no" I'd like to see it.



This is direct quote from the letter:

quote:

He had forced, unprotected sex with me when it had been off the table using his D/S 'teacher' role to put me in a position that this could happen


Which doesn't really answer the question, either. We know that she started off saying "no", but don't know what happened after that.



_____________________________

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The Accelerated Velocity of Terminological Inexactitude

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Profile   Post #: 141
RE: What actions , if any, should I take? - 5/6/2013 8:40:41 AM   
kalikshama


Posts: 14805
Joined: 8/8/2010
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quote:

I have seen many women on this site say they were raped, yet when they describe the events, it is clear that while they may have been manipulated, they weren't raped. They simply involved themselves in situations where they shouldn't. They were new, and use the "I didn't realize I could say no" or "he told me this was how it worked," going on to say that it was only later, when they learned a bit more about BDSM that they realized they were raped.

So simply *thinking* that this isn't what you agreed to, or that this isn't what you *thought* was going to happen, doesn't mean you were raped. Does it mean that the top in question behaved in a completely appropriate manner? Not necessarily. But it does mean that you can't claim you were raped. Every time a woman has sexual conduct that after the fact she realizes she didn't enjoy, or many didn't even want, it doesn't mean it translates to rape.

So what do you do? You better inform new people of safe play practices. You make sure they understand that they ALWAYS have the right to withdraw consent and expect that withdrawal to be respected. You make sure that they know they need to clearly withdraw that consent with more than a simple "no," in BDSM settings, since often "no" can be considered part of the scene. You make sure they understand that tops who tell them safe words are for sissies or not needed are not people they should play with. Finally, you make sure they know that if they ignore all of these safety precautions, they are putting themselves in situations where things can very likely not turn out how they want, but they are not necessarily in a position to call rape afterwards.

You don't bad mouth other tops based on rumors and innuendo when you have no facts. Sadly, you can't simply take a woman's word for things in BDSM situations because far too often, they seem to not understand that silently engaging in behavior they don't want is not withdrawing consent.


I have made the mistake of silently engaging in behavior I didn't want. He stopped as soon as I finally said stop, and part of me felt silly for not saying stop earlier and part of me wondering if he would have stopped had he not had an orgasm and most of me kicked myself for ignoring the red flags I'd seen before we played.

Another thing I could have done differently was when we talked on the phone about cutting off clothes in general was to make it perfectly, crystal clear that this was not to be done to the outfit I arrived in. To me, it's common sense that if you want to cut off someone's clothes, you let her know to wear something she's willing to have destroyed and to bring something to put on afterwards, but, as it turns out, he didn't think the same.

So, I was left thinking "What an asshole" and I'm sure he was thinking "What's her problem? We talked about it and she said she was into it."

Now, I knew ahead of time that he was an asshole because when I dared to question him about something else on the phone, he snapped at me that he's been doing this for 20 years and he knew what he was doing. At the time, I was swooning over his Domly attitude but now I know that treating me like his slave before we'd met is a huge red flag. I was also dazzled my his pictures (which turned out to be 10-15 years old, which I would have know had I had a vanilla meeting first. He'd refused to do this, but did that in a way that way hawt, and I ignored that red flag as well.)

So, while he was an asshole, I take complete responsibility for my own bad boundaries, and made a lot of changes in how I screened potential partners, including initiating conversations about condom use and walking away from play with people who didn't share my views about safe sex and not engaging in bondage with people who I didn't feel 100% sure that they would respect my limits once I was helpless.

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RE: What actions , if any, should I take? - 5/6/2013 9:16:10 AM   
kalikshama


Posts: 14805
Joined: 8/8/2010
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quote:

He had forced, unprotected sex with me when it had been off the table using his D/S 'teacher' role to put me in a position that this could happen


I don't have enough details to comment on this but it reminds me of some men I've played with who I had to always remind to wash their hands first. I hated doing this because it put me into Mommy headspace. But because it was important to me, if I hadn't hear the water running, I'd remind him to wash his hands.

Fortunately, I am now with a partner with better hygiene. We are monogamous and had STD testing. I pay attention to when I ovulate and let him know that I need to put in a sponge beforehand.

With previous partners with whom I needed to use a condom, I would have the condom conversation before each act, sometimes as brief as "the condoms are here" until he'd consistently demonstrated he was with the safe sex program. If I had my period and my flow was too heavy for vaginal play, I'd disclose that. If I'm spotting and haven't yet put in my diaphragm, or if I think it may be too heavy to all be caught by the diaphragm, I let him know.

If I were the type of person who didn't want sex as part of a scene, I would make that crystal clear, each and every time.

So, for the quote above, I'm interested in knowing how and when sex became off the table, and when that conversation happened in relationship to the scene that went bad.
- If it happened immediately before the scene or during the scene, I agree that it was rape.
- If she said it weeks earlier when they were strangers to each other and they'd grown increasingly more intimate, I can see where someone could make the mistake of assuming things had changed or forgotten about it.

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RE: What actions , if any, should I take? - 5/6/2013 9:21:50 AM   
SeekingTrinity


Posts: 1834
Joined: 5/29/2012
From: The 'burbs of Portland, OR
Status: offline 		~FRing it~

Well, I've read the entire thread. I think that your best bet is probably going to be voting with your feet on this. Clearly the hostess is a supporter of this guy, so it's doubtful that she will listen to your concerns about the stuff swirling around this guy. So if you personally don't want to appear like you are condoning his actions IF they are true (I say "if" because all it apparently is right now is social media based accusations), I'd personally not attend events where this guy would be or where he is clearly accepted.

Because nothing has been proven, I'd caution against warning people directly about this guy specifically. What I would do is use my mentor status as a tool to be able to establish a workshop for teaching newbies as a whole about safety and other such issues related to BDSM. If you know how this guy operates as far as these allegations are concerned, you can address them to the newbies without having to name any names. This way you can educate people without specifically warning them about this guy. He maintains his rights to be innocent until proven guilty and you can do what you feel is right without becoming the eye of a drama filled shitstorm. The implosion of your local community over these allegations provides an ideal opportunity to talk with new folks about safety things they might not be aware of.

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Profile   Post #: 144
RE: What actions , if any, should I take? - 5/6/2013 9:45:01 AM   
OsideGirl


Posts: 14441
Joined: 7/1/2005
From: United States
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kalikshama


If I were the type of person who didn't want sex as part of a scene, I would make that crystal clear, each and every time.

So, for the quote above, I'm interested in knowing how and when sex became off the table, and when that conversation happened in relationship to the scene that went bad.
- If it happened immediately before the scene or during the scene, I agree that it was rape.
- If she said it weeks earlier when they were strangers to each other and they'd grown increasingly more intimate, I can see where someone could make the mistake of assuming things had changed or forgotten about it.


Well, here's the thing: Master has played with women that immediately prior to the scene said, "absolutely no sex". Half way through the scene, they were begging for sex. Master stuck to the original agreement and did not engage in any sex. It was a no win situation for him, but he decided he'd rather have her mad at him for not giving her an orgasm than telling everyone that he had sex with her when she had said that there wouldn't be sex.

So, we really don't know. It could be that he waited until she was in the middle of the scene and took advantage. Or it could be she got caught up in a scene and then had buyer's remorse. (Although, there's no excuse for unprotected sex)

But, I will say that this is a prime reason why I think male Doms should not mentor female submissives and that mentors should not play or have sex with their proteges.


< Message edited by OsideGirl -- 5/6/2013 9:49:12 AM >

_____________________________

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RE: What actions , if any, should I take? - 5/6/2013 9:52:56 AM   
absolutchocolat


Posts: 1392
Status: offline 		Just because people are into activities such as the example you provided, doesn't mean that they cannot be raped during that act. Hell, I like to be spanked and choked sometimes, but I am still entitled to say "no" at any point.

As for the brainwashing bit, because I am not familiar with any of the accusers nor the accused, I cannot make a judgement about that particular situation. Smooth talker or not, if you're an asshole with a fetish for going too far, that makes you a criminal in my eyes.

quote:

ORIGINAL: RedMagic1

Not intended to troll you, and this is obviously a serious matter, but don't you think a lot of that difficulty stems from the fact that things like "consensual nonconsent" are considered ok in "the community," even fetishized?

My guess is that you're more aware of the legal definition of "rape" and "sexual assault" than the average interneter. How likely do you think it is that the women are using the word according to that definition? I haven't looked at any thread on Fet, so I have less than zero understanding of this particular situation. But just judging from this thread's OP, the D person sounds like a Svengali-type who is good at recruiting women of low self-esteem who interpret sexual objectification as desirable attention. How much of this might be, "I was brainwashed and I have now realized I didn't really consent to have sex with him after all"? Do you consider that "real" rape? Is that rape in the eyes of the law?

I don't have answers to any of these questions, myself. But I do think "If there's smoke, there's fire" changes somewhat if a woman (or man) actively desires, and seeks out, objectification and slavery.


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RE: What actions , if any, should I take? - 5/6/2013 10:14:01 AM   
kalikshama


Posts: 14805
Joined: 8/8/2010
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quote:

(Although, there's no excuse for unprotected sex)

But, I will say that this is a prime reason why I think male Doms should not mentor female submissives and that mentors should not play or have sex with their proteges.


Agreed.

It's really important to be on the same page with definitions. To me, "poly" is short for "polyamory" meaning "many loves." To my ex, it meant sport fucking whoever showed an interest, which led me to lose interest in having sex with him, condoms or not.

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RE: What actions , if any, should I take? - 5/6/2013 10:28:53 AM   
PeonForHer


Posts: 19612
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SeekingTrinity
Because nothing has been proven, I'd caution against warning people directly about this guy specifically.


I'm wondering, if you (or anyone else here) were with your sister or an old female friend at the same gig as this man, and saw them 'coming together' . . . would you say nothing about his reputation to her?

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Profile   Post #: 148
RE: What actions , if any, should I take? - 5/6/2013 10:46:54 AM   
Hera462


Posts: 21
Joined: 9/28/2011
Status: offline 		The amount of immediate victim blaming in this thread has My stomach turning. As soon as "accused of rape" was uttered people were chomping at the bit to decree a warning against judgement of the accused because "The women should have known better than to be in that situation" A flock of justifications abounded as to how the accused may be innocent. It must just be some stupid girls regretting that they banged this guy, Or that they were angry he had spurned them after the event. And best of all, If they were really raped they would have run to the authorities.

Have any idea what the number one group that suffers from PTSD is ?
Nope, Its not soldiers returning from war, Its rape victims.
Can you really sit there and find it so difficult to imagine that someone who has just gone through a trauma would not want to immediately proceed to another trauma involving guilt, victim blaming, trial of character, and possibly having to see and confront the person responsible for causing the abuse in a lengthy trial.. which the odds of getting an actual conviction are slim. Now Instead of just being a victim , they can be a potential target to an already power hungry and boundary pushing assailant as well.

It is not the concept that the accused may be innocent that bothers Me, but the assumption of the guilt and incompetence of the accuser that has me appalled.

This all without ever hearing the full story. With no word uttered about No never having been spoken. The immediate assumption that the victims are just "Drama Lamas" seems to Me to be a serious sign of just how Not seriously we take victims.

The vitriol seems to run so deep as to even accuse Steven of jealously when he mentions that none of the accused play partners seem to return to events. Yes, He did put it lightheartedly in saying that he would have enjoyed having had the chance to have had them as potential play partners, but the sentiment of the statement seemed to express more that this was indeed a red flag. And that IS a red flag. More so then just un friending this guy on Fet.. They do not want to even be in the same space as him. That takes some pretty strong feelings.

I can not be judge as to the innocence or guilt of the accused, But details do seem indicative of guilt being a real possibility.It seems fairly far fetched to Me that a group of 5+ women would get together to try to "destroy" this persons reputation merely because they had some next morning guilt or feelings of rejection. Steven mentions that he himself has witnessed borderline behavior, and while it is an assumption, I do believe it is a safe assumption that people will go even further in private than they would display in a public setting.
Regardless of what events actually transpired, The situation should at least be taken seriously. I would not support parties or events who felt it all right to condone such behavior. By protecting and defending the accused it is giving license to such behavior. If the accused felt a responsibility to his hostess friend as much a she did to him, he would lay low and do his best to (re?) establish his solid reputation and address concerns instead of flaunting his lack of concern about the situation.

< Message edited by Hera462 -- 5/6/2013 10:50:19 AM >

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RE: What actions , if any, should I take? - 5/6/2013 10:49:01 AM   
UllrsIshtar


Posts: 3693
Joined: 7/28/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer


quote:

ORIGINAL: SeekingTrinity
Because nothing has been proven, I'd caution against warning people directly about this guy specifically.


I'm wondering, if you (or anyone else here) were with your sister or an old female friend at the same gig as this man, and saw them 'coming together' . . . would you say nothing about his reputation to her?


Nope, I wouldn't warn my sisters away from him.

Growing up (I'm the oldest) I've had extensive conversations with my sisters about online dating safety, their rights and duties around consent, and verifying a man's reputation before you put yourself in a situation alone with him. They're both adults now, and I expect them to be responsible for their own choices.

Unless they'd come an ask me what I thought about the guy (which is likely to happen) I wouldn't say anything about him to them at all. If they did ask me about him, I at this point tell them I don't have enough facts about him to have an opinion (seeing that I've never met him) and direct them instead to this and other threads online.




< Message edited by UllrsIshtar -- 5/6/2013 10:50:12 AM >

_____________________________

I can be your whore
I am the dirt you created
I am your sinner
And your whore
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You love me for everything you hate me for

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RE: What actions , if any, should I take? - 5/6/2013 10:55:19 AM   
kalikshama


Posts: 14805
Joined: 8/8/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

quote:

ORIGINAL: SeekingTrinity
Because nothing has been proven, I'd caution against warning people directly about this guy specifically.


I'm wondering, if you (or anyone else here) were with your sister or an old female friend at the same gig as this man, and saw them 'coming together' . . . would you say nothing about his reputation to her?


My sister? No. She has better boundaries than I do and would not need a warning.

Certain female friends? Yes.

Strangers who RSVPd to an event on fetlife? No.


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RE: What actions , if any, should I take? - 5/6/2013 10:55:19 AM   
ClassAct2006


Posts: 318
Joined: 4/12/2006
Status: offline 		One reaion I don't play and stick always to a man I care about and who cares about me and is monogamous. Minimises risk.

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RE: What actions , if any, should I take? - 5/6/2013 10:56:29 AM   
kalikshama


Posts: 14805
Joined: 8/8/2010
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quote:

The amount of immediate victim blaming in this thread has My stomach turning. As soon as "accused of rape" was uttered people were chomping at the bit to decree a warning against judgement of the accused because "The women should have known better than to be in that situation"


Really? My impression is that people said they didn't have enough facts in THIS case, but in OTHER cases...

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RE: What actions , if any, should I take? - 5/6/2013 11:00:09 AM   
hlen5


Posts: 5890
Joined: 3/2/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer


quote:

ORIGINAL: SeekingTrinity
Because nothing has been proven, I'd caution against warning people directly about this guy specifically.


I'm wondering, if you (or anyone else here) were with your sister or an old female friend at the same gig as this man, and saw them 'coming together' . . . would you say nothing about his reputation to her?


Hell yes!


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RE: What actions , if any, should I take? - 5/6/2013 11:00:23 AM   
RedMagic1


Posts: 6470
Joined: 5/10/2007
Status: offline 		Thanks for the response, absolutchocolat.

Regarding this:

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer
I'm wondering, if you (or anyone else here) were with your sister or an old female friend at the same gig as this man, and saw them 'coming together' . . . would you say nothing about his reputation to her?

I would. But that's real life. Maybe the thread has morphed, but the Opening Post solicited opinions about taking actions on the internet in response to claims made on the internet. People pretend they have cancer on the internet, and even fake their own deaths.

If you want to help the oppressed and the traumatized, do something in reality. This thread has started to feel like an I'm-superior-on-the-internet party.



_____________________________

Not with envy, not with a twisted heart, shall you feel superior, or go about boasting. Rather in goodness by action make true your song and your word. Thus you shall be highly regarded, and able to live in peace with all others.
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RE: What actions , if any, should I take? - 5/6/2013 11:31:02 AM   
PeonForHer


Posts: 19612
Joined: 9/27/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: RedMagic1

If you want to help the oppressed and the traumatized, do something in reality. This thread has started to feel like an I'm-superior-on-the-internet party.



If one of us is guilty of that, then I think there's a pretty good chance we might all be, Red. As for it being the internet - well, there's a crossover, of course. People hear about events on the net, then go to them physically. The distinction between the two becomes a bit arbitrary, in my view.

< Message edited by PeonForHer -- 5/6/2013 11:33:36 AM >

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RE: What actions , if any, should I take? - 5/6/2013 1:24:12 PM   
LillyoftheVally


Posts: 1826
Joined: 7/22/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer
I'm wondering, if you (or anyone else here) were with your sister or an old female friend at the same gig as this man, and saw them 'coming together' . . . would you say nothing about his reputation to her?


I would tell my sister, and any friends and probably any people that I spend time with socially, I would tell them what I know and then let them make their own minds up. Its easy to say stay out but then if something happened to someone I cared about or as I said even just knew socially and I had information that could have prevented it I don't think I would ever forgive myself. The only people I wouldn't tell is strangers.

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RE: What actions , if any, should I take? - 5/6/2013 1:44:58 PM   
LafayetteLady


Posts: 7683
Joined: 5/2/2007
From: Northern New Jersey
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven


quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder

quote:

I have the evidence that the guy's exes invariably unfriend him when they break up.


How does this make the guy a bad man? I've dated men who I unfriended and many others who dated them had. It had nothing to do with him being a bad man but simply incompatible and the women just had nothing enough in common to bother with him anymore. They simply moved on with their lives and never kept in contact with the guy anymore. I don't talk to my ex-dom anymore. I don't have him listed as a friend anywhere. I don't hate him and he's not a bad man. I just have never found a reason to keep him as a friend if I don't even talk to him.

I think you're grasping at straws to justify your feelings toward this man based on what women say about him through rumor. I get that you are a daddy type of Dom and I think this is coloring your feelings on the entire situation imo. I've noticed in pasts posts of yours that you do seem to stick up for women more than men and you have a soft spot for them overall and in general. I personally think you might not see things objectively.



By itself, it means nothing. It's just a minor piece of the puzzle. Having almost all of someone's exes on bad terms with them, is a small red flag.

Like I have said, I feel certain that SOMETHING happened. I'm trying to keep objectivity and say that I'm not 100% sure what it was.


The simple fact is that it is none of your business, no matter how much you would like to make it so. If you wanted to talk to the women it happened to and offer support, fine. But warning others? Not your place or your business since you have no facts other than he has exhibit "borderline" behavior, meaning you exhibited him doing things that YOU find to be borderline, so not the least bit objective.

Leave the group.

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RE: What actions , if any, should I take? - 5/6/2013 2:10:43 PM   
evesgrden


Posts: 597
Joined: 6/9/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Hera462

The amount of immediate victim blaming in this thread has My stomach turning. As soon as "accused of rape" was uttered people were chomping at the bit to decree a warning against judgement of the accused because "The women should have known better than to be in that situation" A flock of justifications abounded as to how the accused may be innocent. It must just be some stupid girls regretting that they banged this guy, Or that they were angry he had spurned them after the event. And best of all, If they were really raped they would have run to the authorities.

Have any idea what the number one group that suffers from PTSD is ?
Nope, Its not soldiers returning from war, Its rape victims.
Can you really sit there and find it so difficult to imagine that someone who has just gone through a trauma would not want to immediately proceed to another trauma involving guilt, victim blaming, trial of character, and possibly having to see and confront the person responsible for causing the abuse in a lengthy trial.. which the odds of getting an actual conviction are slim. Now Instead of just being a victim , they can be a potential target to an already power hungry and boundary pushing assailant as well.

It is not the concept that the accused may be innocent that bothers Me, but the assumption of the guilt and incompetence of the accuser that has me appalled.

This all without ever hearing the full story. With no word uttered about No never having been spoken. The immediate assumption that the victims are just "Drama Lamas" seems to Me to be a serious sign of just how Not seriously we take victims.

The vitriol seems to run so deep as to even accuse Steven of jealously when he mentions that none of the accused play partners seem to return to events. Yes, He did put it lightheartedly in saying that he would have enjoyed having had the chance to have had them as potential play partners, but the sentiment of the statement seemed to express more that this was indeed a red flag. And that IS a red flag. More so then just un friending this guy on Fet.. They do not want to even be in the same space as him. That takes some pretty strong feelings.

I can not be judge as to the innocence or guilt of the accused, But details do seem indicative of guilt being a real possibility.It seems fairly far fetched to Me that a group of 5+ women would get together to try to "destroy" this persons reputation merely because they had some next morning guilt or feelings of rejection. Steven mentions that he himself has witnessed borderline behavior, and while it is an assumption, I do believe it is a safe assumption that people will go even further in private than they would display in a public setting.
Regardless of what events actually transpired, The situation should at least be taken seriously. I would not support parties or events who felt it all right to condone such behavior. By protecting and defending the accused it is giving license to such behavior. If the accused felt a responsibility to his hostess friend as much a she did to him, he would lay low and do his best to (re?) establish his solid reputation and address concerns instead of flaunting his lack of concern about the situation.


Yes.

_____________________________

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Profile   Post #: 159
RE: What actions , if any, should I take? - 5/6/2013 2:33:37 PM   
PeonForHer


Posts: 19612
Joined: 9/27/2008
Status: offline
quote:


ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar
They're both adults now, and I expect them to be responsible for their own choices
.

People - even otherwise mature and worldly-wise people - can be horrifyingly silly and innocent when they first come to BDSM. God knows, we see enough evidence of that on these boards. I myself was an example. A few years ago, when I first came here, I started to receive cmails from concerned women gently opining that they felt I was in danger of being a bit of a dickhead and getting myself in a situation where I'd be rendered immobile by the wrong sort of woman and then be on the receiving end of treatment that I really wouldn't want.


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