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The Delete Squad - 5/4/2013 7:13:44 AM   
TheHeretic


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At the link is a good article on the challenges of internet content monitoring, and the conflicting views of free speech around the world.

http://www.newrepublic.com/article/113045/free-speech-internet-silicon-valley-making-rules#

As some might guess, I favor the least restrictive approach possible.

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RE: The Delete Squad - 5/4/2013 9:27:05 AM   
njlauren


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There is real concern with this, countries like China are absolutely paranoid about censoring the net, and in theory they could try and use economic blackmail to get countries like the US and others to censor the internet to make themselves happy (for example, block sites critical of the Chinese regime), or have the saudis threaten oil embargoes and the like to get other countries to filter out stuff their 10th century culture doesn't like.....

The net is a tough place, and it harbors a lot of bad things, like the kind of sites that drove the two douchebags up in Boston to do what they did and figure out how to do it, too, or the sites with pirated material or child porn, etc......but what the Chinese government in their paranoia doesn't realize is that censoring anything is a disaster area, to try and 'maintain stability', it also hinders innovation and creativity which the net helps spawn (it is no surprise that China, despite all the blather about being an economic powerhouse, has pretty much done nothing in terms of innovation; put it this way, Chinese R and D is pretty much industrial sabotage and copying).

We have the same problem here, the religious right and the GOP have tried many times to censor the net, and fortunately failed (anyone remember the "Child Protection Act" back in the 90's? It was so bad, so broad, that Scalia, of all people, said it amounted to basically a writ to censor the net about almost anything, that fundamentalists could argue discussions about evolution hurt their kid's faith and therefore should be blocked, atheists could argue religious cites are nothing more then mindless brainwashing of kids minds, and so forth), the GOP at one point was really big about 'bringing the net' into the realm of the public airwaves, trying to pass laws making ISP's responsible for content and so forth......the religious right made clear that if passed that they would go after non porn sites, like Planned Parenthood's websites (for promoting abortion and birth control) or sites with information about gays and lesbians that didn't spout the "Christian" idea it was a mortal sin, destroyer of society, etc....

You also get things like Englands idiotic libel laws, that quite frankly, every country should refuse to recognize the decisions of british courts until they finally amend them (basically, you can get huge judgements for libel even if what you wrote about is true, if they decide it hurt the 'victim'. In most countries, to win libel judgements, you have to prove that what they wrote was false and more importantly, that they published it knowing it was false, to deliberately wreck the reputation of the person they were writing about. The turds in the Saudi Royal family do that all the time, and what it does is cause publishers and writers to be cowed from writing the truth.....along with British cooking and dental care (and British cars of the past), it is one of the 19th century things they need to fix...those laws have been used against websites in other countries, commercial sites like the online arm of journals, arguing that since people in the UK can see it, it is covered by their laws....


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RE: The Delete Squad - 5/4/2013 10:06:52 AM   
WantsOfTheFlesh


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quote:

At a December meeting in Dubai, for example, a majority of the 193 countries that make up the U.N.’s International Telecommunication Union approved a proposal by China, Russia, Tajikistan, and Uzbekistan to create ominous “international norms and rules standardizing behavior of countries concerning information and cyberspace,” as a description of the measure provided by the Chinese government puts it.

aint it a funny coincidence russia, uzbek, tajikistan & of course china already screen loadsa web content & have issues wit free speech & democracy?

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RE: The Delete Squad - 5/4/2013 10:19:22 AM   
TheHeretic


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Attempting to cast censorship efforts in the US as somehow a "right-wing" sort of thing is despicable, Lauren. The politically correct left would love to ban "hatespeech" and then make fucking well sure that "hatespeech" was defined as anything that they didn't like, shortly thereafter.

Censorship is the tool of the authoritarian, and those can be found at all ends of our political spectrum. Only an idiot would try to apply the Alinsky model to any discussion of such a fundamental human right.

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


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RE: The Delete Squad - 5/4/2013 4:40:04 PM   
dcnovice


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FR

Fascinating article. Thanks, Rich!

Like you, I generally favor the least restrictive approach possible. But then, in my maddening way, I can understand where folks are coming from with their concerns about kids' being exposed to adult content, hate speech's ability to spread poison through a society, cyber bullying's toll on kids' lives, and so forth. Drawing lines in a global medium, with wildly divergent and competing standards for speech, is no mean feat.

Reading the article, I was struck by how much care and attention the Deciders devote to their work. I'm impressed and even a bit moved that they take free speech so seriously ("It is meet and right so to do," imho) and seem to strive to decide things on the merits rather than taking the path of least resistance.

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RE: The Delete Squad - 5/4/2013 5:59:37 PM   
TheHeretic


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Glad you enjoyed the article, DC.

I've never gone looking for content filters that parents might use, to control where minors on the internet connection might go, but I'm pretty sure there are plenty out there. If not, there are fortunes to be made in creating them.

Internet censorship certainly isn't a subject that is going to go away.

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


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RE: The Delete Squad - 5/4/2013 6:10:39 PM   
dcnovice


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quote:

've never gone looking for content filters that parents might use, to control where minors on the internet connection might go, but I'm pretty sure there are plenty out there.

Doh! I'd forgotten about those. (My excuse: lingering "hospital head.") That's a concern probably best addressed at the family level rather than censoring the whole Net.

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

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RE: The Delete Squad - 5/4/2013 6:27:01 PM   
TheHeretic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

That's a concern probably best addressed at the family level rather than censoring the whole Net.



Absolutely, and amen, DC.

And take as long as you need to keep getting better, dammit!

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


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RE: The Delete Squad - 5/4/2013 6:39:50 PM   
njlauren


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

Attempting to cast censorship efforts in the US as somehow a "right-wing" sort of thing is despicable, Lauren. The politically correct left would love to ban "hatespeech" and then make fucking well sure that "hatespeech" was defined as anything that they didn't like, shortly thereafter.

Censorship is the tool of the authoritarian, and those can be found at all ends of our political spectrum. Only an idiot would try to apply the Alinsky model to any discussion of such a fundamental human right.

I never said it was only the right wing, and I made the point that for example atheists could argue religious sites are propoganda. Feminists tried to get porn removed from first amendment protection arguing it hurt women, working with the religious idiots, and we of course have examples of book banning, removing books like Huck Finn and The Merchant of Venice because some felt offended by them (stupidly so, of course). It is just that if you look at things like attempts at net censorship in the US (the original Child Protection act or Child Decency Act was based in large part by pressure the religious right brought about), and CBS was fined 1 million bucks by the FCC under the Bush administration, when Janet Jackson's nipple was exposed, based on 100 (you got it, 100, out of an audience of 100 million), from down in the bible belt. Take a look at censored books, and most of the are overwhelmingly the work of right wing Christians and the like.... Authoritarianism exists on all ends of the spectrum, but when it comes to freedom of speech on the net, most of the voices wanting to censor it have been from the right. As far as 'hate speech' bans, the US has no such thing, and i haven't seen any major liberal group. like the ACLU or the FFF (Freedom Frontier foundation) push for hate speech censorship, that is generally been a chimera of the right wing, who put together hate crimes with hate speech, when they are two different things. Canada and Europe censor hate speech, the US does not, and I haven't heard of any left wing attempt to clamp down on 'hate speech' sites, if someone has credible proof I would love to see it

I do hear freedom of speech bandied about by the likes of the Michelle Bachman's and Sarah Palin's of the world, upset when they say something stupid and face a shitstorm of criticism and cry 'first amendment violation' and "hate speech censorship", which is complete bullshit. You have the right to say anything you want, but that doesn't shield you from consequences, all it says is you can't be arrested for it or charged if you publish it. I have seen people make stupid remarks and get fired for it, some stupid twit at a geek convention got a guy fired because he and a buddy were making sophomoric jokes about dongles (and said twit got fired from her own company for posting the other guys pictures on twitter and saying they were 'harassing her' with the jokes, her company fired her because all these tech companies said they wouldn't use the company she worked for, and she went around whining how her 'free speech' rights were violated.....). Hate speech crimes is not being criticized or boycotted if you say something that pisses people off, hate speech crime would mean being legally busted for saying something or being prevented from saying or writing it by the law, and that doesn't exist, it couldn't with the first amendment. The first amendment stopped the net censorship laws that have been proposed so far, so I doubt very much they could happen.

< Message edited by njlauren -- 5/4/2013 6:59:52 PM >

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RE: The Delete Squad - 5/4/2013 6:52:52 PM   
njlauren


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Justice Lewis Brandeis once made the point, in a censorship case, that the answer to 'bad speech' was 'good speech', and plenty of it. He also pointedly said that trying to censor society down to the level of children was not the answer, and that as adults it was up to us to make sure that children are protected.

While it isn't perfect, there are plenty of tools out there that can block adult sites or other inappropriate things from children. More importantly, there is an even better tool, it is called controlled access to the net. You don't give you kids phones or ipads with access to the net, as I have seen far too many times, you don't let kids have a computer in their room (our main computer my kid used was in our living room/dining room area), and you limit their time on it. I know kids claim they 'have' to be on the net, but that is bullshit, they don't need privacy and they don't need 24/7 access and if 8 year olds are getting facebook accounts cause their parents let them, whose fault is that?

It is like arguments about tv, as long as parents have warnings about tv content that allows them to make decision, trying to censor tv down to some common standard is idiotic. The problem is a lot of parents feel they can't be responsible, either because they are busy or other circumstances, but I know single parents who though they struggle, know what their kids are doing.

I don't like censorship of any kind, the Chinese despite all the glowing hussahs from the cheerleaders (mostly business leaders eager for dirt cheap labor), are cutting their throat with their idiocy. A local string instrument shop had its website blocked in China, because they advertised in a local chinese language paper in the area I live in (not a dumb move, given that Asian kids make up a lot of the music students these days), that the Chinese government didn't like because they criticized them, not very smart. When you try to censor things to make things all warm and fuzzy, what you end up is the equivalent of a kid wrapped in a blanket and forbidden to run around and play, you end up with a society that is forever stuck playing catch up.

Authoritarians don't like free speech because it is a scary thing to them, whether it is religious belief, political nonsense, fear of revolt, speech is a powerful tool (which is why the US is one of the few countries that implicitly has freedom of speech as our central laws) and those who want to control society fear that.

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RE: The Delete Squad - 5/4/2013 6:59:35 PM   
MrRodgers


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

Attempting to cast censorship efforts in the US as somehow a "right-wing" sort of thing is despicable, Lauren. The politically correct left would love to ban "hatespeech" and then make fucking well sure that "hatespeech" was defined as anything that they didn't like, shortly thereafter.

Censorship is the tool of the authoritarian, and those can be found at all ends of our political spectrum. Only an idiot would try to apply the Alinsky model to any discussion of such a fundamental human right.

But they haven't tried nearly as hard and submitted anywhere near the legislation to do that. Censorship has been a right wing fantasy for almost all of my adult life.

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RE: The Delete Squad - 5/4/2013 7:03:28 PM   
njlauren


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers


quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

Attempting to cast censorship efforts in the US as somehow a "right-wing" sort of thing is despicable, Lauren. The politically correct left would love to ban "hatespeech" and then make fucking well sure that "hatespeech" was defined as anything that they didn't like, shortly thereafter.

Censorship is the tool of the authoritarian, and those can be found at all ends of our political spectrum. Only an idiot would try to apply the Alinsky model to any discussion of such a fundamental human right.

But they haven't tried nearly as hard and submitted anywhere near the legislation to do that. Censorship has been a right wing fantasy for almost all of my adult life.

Yeah, like the McCarthy era that conservatives have been trying to rehabilitate in recent decades, trying to claim it really was effective, protected the country, that ole Tail Gunner Joe was a hero, not a drunken loser grasping at any straw to stay in power. Most of the net censorship laws have been introduced in congress by the GOP, the Child Decency act in the mid 90's was a gop congress (that slick willie signed the same year as Doma, he and his wife make me want to puke), and since then each year a number of bills come up to censor the net, and it is from gop conservatives.

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RE: The Delete Squad - 5/4/2013 7:25:52 PM   
TheHeretic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: njlauren

Authoritarians don't like free speech because it is a scary thing to them, whether it is religious belief, political nonsense, fear of revolt, speech is a powerful tool (which is why the US is one of the few countries that implicitly has freedom of speech as our central laws) and those who want to control society fear that.


Nicely recited. But when minds are too thoroughly brainwashed to notice the cries that we must all sacrifice, lest bullies hurt someone's feelings, which is exactly where that leftist victim drive du jour is going, the words obviously ain't sinking in.



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If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


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RE: The Delete Squad - 5/4/2013 8:00:32 PM   
Real0ne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: WantsOfTheFlesh
aint it a funny coincidence russia, uzbek, tajikistan & of course china already screen loadsa web content & have issues wit free speech & democracy?


who in their right mind would not have issues with democracy?

DEMOCRACY: 51% can vote to LEGALLY fuck your wife every Friday nite



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RE: The Delete Squad - 5/4/2013 10:38:54 PM   
TricklessMagic


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I think most people can agree child porn is bad (those who don't need to guzzle bleach). After that the Internet should be a free frontier. Libel and slander are a mainstay of society and that's what courts are for, and should only apply to statements of fact (not opinion). When one wants to restrict criticism and free speech, I grow greatly concerned. I don't care for liberals but they have a right to their opinions and freedom of expression.

When Russia or China are involved, there should be a great deal of concern. Both nations, lands, are known for human rights abuses and liberalism run amok and exploited.

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