West Fertilizer only had $1 million in insurance. (Full Version)

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DomKen -> West Fertilizer only had $1 million in insurance. (5/4/2013 3:29:00 PM)

http://www.dallasnews.com/news/west-explosion/headlines/20130503-west-fertilizer-was-insured-for-only-1-million-a-fraction-of-estimated-losses.ece
100 million in physical damage but only 1 million in insurance. How's that deregulation working for the people of West?




leonine -> RE: West Fertilizer only had $1 million in insurance. (5/4/2013 3:33:10 PM)

Just think of all the jobs they've created in the undertaking business.




tj444 -> RE: West Fertilizer only had $1 million in insurance. (5/4/2013 4:14:47 PM)

The law/regulations say West Fertilizer was supposed to do a lot of things, including register and report to DHS.. but they didnt.. so what good do regs do if the company totally ignores them???




Lucylastic -> RE: West Fertilizer only had $1 million in insurance. (5/4/2013 4:21:47 PM)

whats the point of having laws/rules against anything then?




tj444 -> RE: West Fertilizer only had $1 million in insurance. (5/4/2013 4:36:09 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

whats the point of having laws/rules against anything then?

there is no point if there is no or not enough of an attempt by govt to enforce the regs and that includes punishment as an incentive to comply including jail time & very hefty fines (& not letting the offending corp run sniveling to a Judge to get the fines drastically reduced or set aside)..




MrRodgers -> RE: West Fertilizer only had $1 million in insurance. (5/4/2013 4:52:50 PM)

As I've repeatedly tried to tell you, the financial world (for profit world) is a separate world. They along with others say like, BP for example, airlines too, constantly get clean away with corporate (business) manslaughter. Death in the name of a profit is a fact of life in the west in general and the US in particular.

Companies that are incorporated private or public have a responsibility as described in what is another Orwellian business term created just for them. The word is fiduciary. That describes a business responsibility for management to manage the business in such a way as to maximize profits without regard for any other responsibility to society such as safety, insurance, taxes and anything else that management may determine as it reflects on profits.

Business's maximizing of profits is in complete disregard for society and thus no matter what all of the banker whores, business whores and political whores tell about their alleged benefits to society...is a complete lie. They have no such responsibility.

In fact because of this fiduciary responsibility, management is charged with the responsibility to fight every regulation, or their enforcement, minimize any contribution to society as it may reflect in a reduction in profits.

Thus almost the entire business world is a complete separate world that seeks to exploit power, govt. and society for its own private profit needs. Got it now ?




WantsOfTheFlesh -> RE: West Fertilizer only had $1 million in insurance. (5/4/2013 5:11:18 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
100 million in physical damage but only 1 million in insurance.

i blame those darn teleporters taking folks from tha 1950s...




littleclip -> RE: West Fertilizer only had $1 million in insurance. (5/4/2013 6:10:00 PM)

the west fertilizer plant was one of some 1300 similar ones in tx that provided farms with the fertilizer. it had been nearly 3 decades since a full osha inspection all the rest was done by phone and internet. this was a gross oversight and shows just how big the cracks are in the system that none of the nearly 30 organizations that had some measure of regulation but none of them ever talked to each other




njlauren -> RE: West Fertilizer only had $1 million in insurance. (5/4/2013 6:28:22 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

As I've repeatedly tried to tell you, the financial world (for profit world) is a separate world. They along with others say like, BP for example, airlines too, constantly get clean away with corporate (business) manslaughter. Death in the name of a profit is a fact of life in the west in general and the US in particular.

Companies that are incorporated private or public have a responsibility as described in what is another Orwellian business term created just for them. The word is fiduciary. That describes a business responsibility for management to manage the business in such a way as to maximize profits without regard for any other responsibility to society such as safety, insurance, taxes and anything else that management may determine as it reflects on profits.

Business's maximizing of profits is in complete disregard for society and thus no matter what all of the banker whores, business whores and political whores tell about their alleged benefits to society...is a complete lie. They have no such responsibility.

In fact because of this fiduciary responsibility, management is charged with the responsibility to fight every regulation, or their enforcement, minimize any contribution to society as it may reflect in a reduction in profits.

Thus almost the entire business world is a complete separate world that seeks to exploit power, govt. and society for its own private profit needs. Got it now ?

I would tend to agree. Once upon a time they used to teach in management school the concept of stakeholder management, where the company had many stakeholders, its employees, the area their facilities were located in, the countries they were in, people who lived where their facilities were and yep, their clients as well, and of course stockholders as well.

This has been replaced by 'shareholder management' where everything is the stock price, and executives, who get so much of their compensation from stock grants, have the incentive to do everything they can to boost that price, no matter how. 12 years ago it was the cooking the books scandals that took down some public accounting firms; in recent years, it has been things like cutting 10,000 jobs in a company that is profitable, or playing around with risky financial investments like CDO's (collaterlized debt obligations) as if it were monopoly money. With the internationalization of business that is all that matters, pumping up the stock price, global companies don't give a crap about anything but that. We are told by the Ayn Rand types that this is efficient business, that this creates wealth the way it should be, but in reality what it often creates is incentive to do things like this, like the financial companies like AIG. In part, it is because they figure de government is going to bail out their asses, they will either limit liability to the company, screwing those suing them, or will end up paying for the costs of cleanup and such.




tj444 -> RE: West Fertilizer only had $1 million in insurance. (5/4/2013 8:07:32 PM)

I dont need you to tell me that, I know that.. but ya'll faithfully go to the voting booth every 4 years and elect/re-elect the same puppets for the 1% that let em get away with this shite.. ya'll fight about which party is better and defend "your" party no matter how they want to screw taxpayers and bail out the 1% so of course this is what happens.. you need a revolution where you clean house of all the politicians and start over with a new political system (one that the 1% cant game like they do this one).. but of course that wont ever happen..




DesideriScuri -> RE: West Fertilizer only had $1 million in insurance. (5/4/2013 8:36:49 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
http://www.dallasnews.com/news/west-explosion/headlines/20130503-west-fertilizer-was-insured-for-only-1-million-a-fraction-of-estimated-losses.ece
100 million in physical damage but only 1 million in insurance. How's that deregulation working for the people of West?


Any proof of deregulation that led to the incident, or led to the low insurance coverage?




DesideriScuri -> RE: West Fertilizer only had $1 million in insurance. (5/4/2013 8:50:25 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic
whats the point of having laws/rules against anything then?


The point is that there is a basis for penalties when one is found to not be following the rules. Having some regulations in place is absolutely necessary for the Market to work properly.

I'd like to know why the EPA wasn't in there since 1985. I'd also like to know why various agencies within the Federal Government still can't/won't/don't talk to each other. The company gets fined in 2006 and in 2011, but DHS doesn't even know they exist? Why the hell not?!?!?

West Texas Fertilizer flouted the rules. If the fire that caused the explosion was arson, the arsonist should also be held responsible. But, West Texas Fertilizer should still bear the majority of the responsibility and consequence.

Going back to the 2008 recession, it was shown that Federal regulators and The Fed should have prevented (or limited) the collapse, and that both were found to be lax in their duties. Federal regulators were found to have been surfing porn on Government computers instead of monitoring the economic data. My point in thsi example is that there were already regulations on the books that would have impacted or prevented the Recession, but regulators weren't manning their posts. Adding more regulation (when regulators aren't even enforcing existing ones isn't likely to have a huge impact, eiher.




Powergamz1 -> RE: West Fertilizer only had $1 million in insurance. (5/4/2013 10:02:25 PM)

ROTFLMAO!!! No, God erased a few zeros from the policy just before he blew the place up as a sign of His displeasure that Perry wasn't President...
[8|]

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
http://www.dallasnews.com/news/west-explosion/headlines/20130503-west-fertilizer-was-insured-for-only-1-million-a-fraction-of-estimated-losses.ece
100 million in physical damage but only 1 million in insurance. How's that deregulation working for the people of West?


Any proof of deregulation that led to the incident, or led to the low insurance coverage?






DesideriScuri -> RE: West Fertilizer only had $1 million in insurance. (5/5/2013 5:49:24 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Powergamz1
ROTFLMAO!!! No, God erased a few zeros from the policy just before he blew the place up as a sign of His displeasure that Perry wasn't President...[8|]
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
http://www.dallasnews.com/news/west-explosion/headlines/20130503-west-fertilizer-was-insured-for-only-1-million-a-fraction-of-estimated-losses.ece
100 million in physical damage but only 1 million in insurance. How's that deregulation working for the people of West?

Any proof of deregulation that led to the incident, or led to the low insurance coverage?


Sarcasm noted. Lack of actually answering the question also noted.




Lucylastic -> RE: West Fertilizer only had $1 million in insurance. (5/5/2013 6:15:59 AM)

http://tv.msnbc.com/2013/04/25/bush-and-the-west-explosion-the-untold-story-of-deregulating-chemical-plants/
http://ehssafetynews.wordpress.com/2013/04/26/update-reglatory-confusion-oversight-lead-to-west-fertilizer-chemical-company-west-texas-explosion-fire/
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-04-29/texas-blast-recalls-chemical-safety-bill-sunk-by-business-lobby.html
http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2013/04/how-chemical-lobby%E2%80%99s-friends-congress-fought-keep-regulators-its-back
While the links may not have all the "proof you require, I would think if you really wanted proof its not deregulation etc, you could find it yourself.
But go ahead and pick holes.
Being proactive is too much for you I guess




Lucylastic -> RE: West Fertilizer only had $1 million in insurance. (5/5/2013 6:37:51 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
http://www.dallasnews.com/news/west-explosion/headlines/20130503-west-fertilizer-was-insured-for-only-1-million-a-fraction-of-estimated-losses.ece
100 million in physical damage but only 1 million in insurance. How's that deregulation working for the people of West?


Any proof of deregulation that led to the incident, or led to the low insurance coverage?


fromfox news regarding the low insurance...
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/05/05/texas-plant-that-blew-up-carried-1m-policy/
<snip>
Roberts (lawyer for plaintiffs) said he expects the plant's owner to ask a judge to divide the $1 million in insurance money among the plaintiffs, several of whom he represents, and then file for bankruptcy.
He said he wasn't surprised that the plant was carrying such a small policy.
"It's rare for Texas to require insurance for any kind of hazardous activity," he said. "We have very little oversight of hazardous activities and even less regulation."

</snip>




DomKen -> RE: West Fertilizer only had $1 million in insurance. (5/5/2013 6:55:19 AM)

Thanks Lucy.




DarkSteven -> RE: West Fertilizer only had $1 million in insurance. (5/5/2013 7:02:37 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

Roberts (lawyer for plaintiffs) said he expects the plant's owner to ask a judge to divide the $1 million in insurance money among the plaintiffs, several of whom he represents, and then file for bankruptcy.



Well, yeah. That's obvious.

The huge question is, what will be the consequences of being underinsured? There will be huge political pressure to hold the owners personally liable for this, possibly criminal charges as well. There will also be huge pressures against doing so, since it would kill Texas' business-friendly image.




tj444 -> RE: West Fertilizer only had $1 million in insurance. (5/5/2013 7:35:38 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

The huge question is, what will be the consequences of being underinsured? There will be huge political pressure to hold the owners personally liable for this, possibly criminal charges as well. There will also be huge pressures against doing so, since it would kill Texas' business-friendly image.

I sorta doubt its just Texas that doesnt regulate the insurance requirements of hazardous businesses or have more stringent regs.. in how many other states would this very same disaster happen in pretty much the same way with pretty much the same result?




Lucylastic -> RE: West Fertilizer only had $1 million in insurance. (5/5/2013 7:46:16 AM)

One of the articles I quoted earlier was stating that the OHSA and EPA are so badly funded/staffed that it makes the job almost impossible so , given the issues with other "disasters" ie with oil spills, mining accidents, chemical spills and industrial accident all over the place. I would think, too many.
jmnsho




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