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The realities of renewable energy. - 5/6/2013 10:44:41 PM   
jlf1961


Posts: 14840
Joined: 6/10/2008
From: Somewhere Texas
Status: offline 		Lets face facts, renewable energy is still in its infancy. Here is the reality.

1) Wind farms take a lot of acreage to even begin to meet the needs of even a small town.

However, on an individual level, such as a home owner, wind turbines can cut the electricity that the home pulls from the grid. It would make more sense to get more people to begin using small wind turbines to cut their electric usage rather than companies tying up land with hundreds of huge wind turbines.

2) Solar.

Photovoltaic cells are not cost effective on a large scale, since the cost per kilowatt hour is about 25 cents per kilowatt hour. Fossil fuels average 10 cents a kilowatt hour.

Then there is the solar power generating plants that use the suns heat to generate electricity. Much more efficient, however they take a lot of land to actually build, the largest solar generating plant in the UAE covers 628,000 square meters, or 155 acres.

The system in the UAE generates 210 gigawatt-hours a year, or 17.5 gigawatts per month. 1 gigawatt will power 75 to 100 thousand homes. So this system could power a small to medium city, using less land than wind farms.

However the cost of the plant in the UAE was $600 million. Now compared to the cost of coal, natural gas and nuclear plants, this is real cheap.

The trade off is the size of the plant in comparison.

This is all something to think about.

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Questions - 5/7/2013 1:16:27 AM   
SpanishMatMaster


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Status: offline 		"infancy"
Being able to cover the whole energy consumption of the year 1900 in the world = infancy?

"Wind farms take a lot of acreage"
Importance of this for farms in deserts / unusable land / sea?

"Fossil fuels average 10 cents a kilowatt hour. "
With which price of oil, and where does this data come from?

Thermosolar?
Tides?
Geothermic?
Hydroplants?
Biofuel?

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RE: The realities of renewable energy. - 5/7/2013 4:08:21 AM   
Phoenixpower


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961
Then there is the solar power generating plants that use the suns heat to generate electricity. Much more efficient, however they take a lot of land to actually build, the largest solar generating plant in the UAE covers 628,000 square meters, or 155 acres.


A lot of land???

My parents as well as some of their friends already have them on their roof (as far as I know only one or two, so it is not as if their whole roof would be covered in it) and from spring to autumn only receive warm water that way to cut down their costs on the electricity build...it also is actually helpful in not wasting water....cause if you waste too much of warm water then it can happen that you end up with a cold shower the next day if the sun wasn't out much....though overall for these 2 it is sufficient....they are most of the time only getting short of warm water when my brother or I are visiting as then simply more people are needing the shower...

and whilst they have 2 forests and 3 houses with huge gardens around it....it did not need any part of their land to be build on with the exception of using their own roof...after all....their roof would not have been used in any other form anyway...



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RE: The realities of renewable energy. - 5/7/2013 4:16:06 AM   
captive4ever


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Joined: 8/16/2011
Status: offline 		Surely the use of renewable energy sources isn't a merely economic question. Surely the use of solar/wind etc is for zero emissions, and a renewable environment instead of the one we are killing using fossil fuels.

Seems to me that the priorities are all wrong here.

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RE: The realities of renewable energy. - 5/7/2013 5:05:56 AM   
jlf1961


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From: Somewhere Texas
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Phoenixpower


quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961
Then there is the solar power generating plants that use the suns heat to generate electricity. Much more efficient, however they take a lot of land to actually build, the largest solar generating plant in the UAE covers 628,000 square meters, or 155 acres.


A lot of land???

My parents as well as some of their friends already have them on their roof (as far as I know only one or two, so it is not as if their whole roof would be covered in it) and from spring to autumn only receive warm water that way to cut down their costs on the electricity build...it also is actually helpful in not wasting water....cause if you waste too much of warm water then it can happen that you end up with a cold shower the next day if the sun wasn't out much....though overall for these 2 it is sufficient....they are most of the time only getting short of warm water when my brother or I are visiting as then simply more people are needing the shower...

and whilst they have 2 forests and 3 houses with huge gardens around it....it did not need any part of their land to be build on with the exception of using their own roof...after all....their roof would not have been used in any other form anyway...





Phoenix, the system you are talking about is the photo voltaic cells, that convert sunlight directly to electricity. The most efficient cell converts 18.1% of sunlight to electricity.

The system I am referring to reflects the sunlight and concentrates it on a tube, this heats a liquid which in turn is used to create steam to spin a turbine to generate electricity. World’s Largest Solar Power Plant Online In United Arab Emirates



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RE: The realities of renewable energy. - 5/7/2013 5:43:15 AM   
samboct


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Status: offline 		"Phoenix, the system you are talking about is the photo voltaic cells, that convert sunlight directly to electricity. The most efficient cell converts 18.1% of sunlight to electricity."

Umm- no. Currently Sunpower is selling crystalline Si cells with 24% efficiency (that's over 20% installed) and Semprius has a GaAs concentrator panel that's over 30% efficient. If you want to use heliostats- Spectralabs has cells which are over 40% efficient- these are GaAs cells IIRC but require greater than 1 sun. Note that theoretical efficiency is probably around 48% for two photon cells such as GaAs. It's 29% for single photo, i.e. crystalline Si- so we're already getting pretty close to theoretical efficiency of crystalline Si. Pretty sure that in order to use multiple photons (this is more than one photon hitting the cell simultaneously to produce an electron/hole pair) you've got to go to concentrators unless you're in space. In other words- the technology is not exactly in its infancy- more like young adolescence. Also- PV cells when manufactured well have long lifetimes- easily 30 years.

Although PV has a high installed cost- there are no transmission losses if the panel is on your rooftop and the energy generated by PV pretty much matches peak demand- i.e. when it's hot out and you want to run air conditioning- PV works great. Note that most utilities do not use real time metering- they charge you an average price. If real time metering kicks in- PV doesn't look so bad- especially with electricity prices here in CT of around $0.18/kw/hr average. Some PV systems also integrate hot water with the installation- further increasing efficiency.

Why is wind done in large installations? Simple- the efficiency of wind turbines increases with size. Current large wind turbines are over 55% efficient at extracting the energy from wind- and that's pretty close to max theoretical. Wind is also now below $0.10 per kw/hr IIRC. Problem with wind is that in the Northeast- especially the Mid Atlantic states- there's not much breeze in summer.

The thermal PV plants you seem to like? Well, they have some pretty narrow siting requirements. Must be hot- must have very high insolation (no cloudy days) because the heat transfer fluid is a molten salt- and if it cools and solidifies in the piping- it's a nightmare. They're building more of these plants in Nevada. Spain has a few as well. Also has economies of scale.

Some of the biggest challenges to renewables at this point are economic systems which favor incumbent utilities. Real time pricing makes PV much more attractive and the tax differential which allows corporations to own PV systems on your rooftop cheaper than home owners (tax advantages) are pretty arbitrary. Utilities have also used legislative roadblocks to inhibit PV installations.

Other advantages of renewables? Water usage- essentially nil for PV and wind (cleaning requirements) where fossil fuel plants and nuclear need large supplies of cooling water. Solar thermal plants can be designed to use recycled water, thus reducing water needs.

There's no single energy technology that's going to fit all global needs. What's also required is better storage and especially transmission technology. Isolated microgrids make little sense for most folks living in suburban/urban areas and the ability to shift power around quickly reduces the problem of the sun not shining in a particular locale or the wind not blowing.

Sam

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RE: The realities of renewable energy. - 5/7/2013 5:55:40 AM   
DarkSteven


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Status: offline 		My impression was that phoenixpower was talking about flat plate collectors, while you're talking of parabolic collectors.

Jeff, solar is well researched. There are several variations. Passive solar is trivial - put extra glass on the south side and some kind of thermal mass there. Or just open the blinds in the morning and close them in the evening.

Active solar requires a collector and fans or pumps.

Generally speaking, alternative energy is most cost-effective when it's used to augment conventional power, not as the sole source of energy.



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RE: The realities of renewable energy. - 5/7/2013 6:04:35 AM   
samboct


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Status: offline 		Hi Steven

Nope- the Sunpower cells and the Semprius panels are exactly that- flat panel/module. Concentrator PV as developed by companies such as Ammonix use additional collectors- often mirrors or lenses which concentrate sunlight on a cell. Haven't seen too many parabolic setups.

Also don't agree that renewables should play second cousin to fossil fuel generation/nuclear. Nuclear plants often have pumped hydro storage- think that's going in with the plant under construction down South (Duke Energy?). Japan has been moderately successful with battery storage although supercap/flywheel may make more sense if the long term economics can be worked out. The economics are a real challenge- our economic systems don't deal well with infrastructure that has very long lifetimes- the home 30 year mortgage is a bit of an artifice.

Sam

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RE: The realities of renewable energy. - 5/7/2013 6:33:51 AM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline 		Here is some renewable energy reality, for people whose knowledge isn't restricted to the glowing press releases, designed to lure suckers into investing.

And yes, there was a nice green lawn under there at 7:30 that morning.






Attachment (1)

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RE: The realities of renewable energy. - 5/7/2013 6:50:30 AM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: samboct
"Phoenix, the system you are talking about is the photo voltaic cells, that convert sunlight directly to electricity. The most efficient cell converts 18.1% of sunlight to electricity."


I'm sure I'm missing something here, but it's too funny not to point out...

quote:

Umm- no. Currently Sunpower is selling crystalline Si cells with 24% efficiency (that's over 20% installed) and Semprius has a GaAs concentrator panel that's over 30% efficient. If you want to use heliostats- Spectralabs has cells which are over 40% efficient- these are GaAs cells IIRC but require greater than 1 sun.


I checked Craigslist and can't find anyone selling a spare sun, but I did only check my local area....



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RE: The realities of renewable energy. - 5/7/2013 7:28:39 AM   
DomKen


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From: Chicago, IL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

Here is some renewable energy reality, for people whose knowledge isn't restricted to the glowing press releases, designed to lure suckers into investing.

And yes, there was a nice green lawn under there at 7:30 that morning.

The owner chose to put a PV on the ground? That was his choice I assume. I'm not sure how that is a terrible bad thing that means we should all continue to kill our planet by burning carbon.

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RE: The realities of renewable energy. - 5/7/2013 7:28:59 AM   
DesideriScuri


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Joined: 1/18/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: samboct
"Phoenix, the system you are talking about is the photo voltaic cells, that convert sunlight directly to electricity. The most efficient cell converts 18.1% of sunlight to electricity."
Umm- no. Currently Sunpower is selling crystalline Si cells with 24% efficiency (that's over 20% installed) and Semprius has a GaAs concentrator panel that's over 30% efficient. If you want to use heliostats- Spectralabs has cells which are over 40% efficient- these are GaAs cells IIRC but require greater than 1 sun. Note that theoretical efficiency is probably around 48% for two photon cells such as GaAs. It's 29% for single photo, i.e. crystalline Si- so we're already getting pretty close to theoretical efficiency of crystalline Si. Pretty sure that in order to use multiple photons (this is more than one photon hitting the cell simultaneously to produce an electron/hole pair) you've got to go to concentrators unless you're in space. In other words- the technology is not exactly in its infancy- more like young adolescence. Also- PV cells when manufactured well have long lifetimes- easily 30 years.
Although PV has a high installed cost- there are no transmission losses if the panel is on your rooftop and the energy generated by PV pretty much matches peak demand- i.e. when it's hot out and you want to run air conditioning- PV works great. Note that most utilities do not use real time metering- they charge you an average price. If real time metering kicks in- PV doesn't look so bad- especially with electricity prices here in CT of around $0.18/kw/hr average. Some PV systems also integrate hot water with the installation- further increasing efficiency.
Why is wind done in large installations? Simple- the efficiency of wind turbines increases with size. Current large wind turbines are over 55% efficient at extracting the energy from wind- and that's pretty close to max theoretical. Wind is also now below $0.10 per kw/hr IIRC. Problem with wind is that in the Northeast- especially the Mid Atlantic states- there's not much breeze in summer.
The thermal PV plants you seem to like? Well, they have some pretty narrow siting requirements. Must be hot- must have very high insolation (no cloudy days) because the heat transfer fluid is a molten salt- and if it cools and solidifies in the piping- it's a nightmare. They're building more of these plants in Nevada. Spain has a few as well. Also has economies of scale.
Some of the biggest challenges to renewables at this point are economic systems which favor incumbent utilities. Real time pricing makes PV much more attractive and the tax differential which allows corporations to own PV systems on your rooftop cheaper than home owners (tax advantages) are pretty arbitrary. Utilities have also used legislative roadblocks to inhibit PV installations.
Other advantages of renewables? Water usage- essentially nil for PV and wind (cleaning requirements) where fossil fuel plants and nuclear need large supplies of cooling water. Solar thermal plants can be designed to use recycled water, thus reducing water needs.
There's no single energy technology that's going to fit all global needs. What's also required is better storage and especially transmission technology. Isolated microgrids make little sense for most folks living in suburban/urban areas and the ability to shift power around quickly reduces the problem of the sun not shining in a particular locale or the wind not blowing.
Sam


Just a couple things:

1. My local power suppliers will reimburse full generation costs for any power put back on the grid (from residential power generators) and will do so monthly. While that is all well and good, roughly half of the charge for power is in distribution, so I'd only be getting roughly half the /unit cost I'm paying. Just so I'm clear (which isn't always the case), I'm charged both a generation fee and a distribution fee for power, and they are roughly equal. If I generate some power and have excess put back into the system real-time, I only get reimbursed according to the generation fee. I understand there are different costs for different parts of providing power, but it's something that can be overlooked if one isn't careful. Depending on the cost and regulations, it may be better to store your real-time excess power on site for use when demand is higher than your generation level.

2. I have to wonder how much power is produced compared to heat lost. If we are heating our water supplies (lakes, ponds, rivers, etc.) through cooling systems in power generation facilities, does this make solar and wind that much more important? That is, how much "global warming" is caused simply through heat dissipation, ignoring any greenhouse effects?


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RE: The realities of renewable energy. - 5/7/2013 7:32:31 AM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic
Here is some renewable energy reality, for people whose knowledge isn't restricted to the glowing press releases, designed to lure suckers into investing.
And yes, there was a nice green lawn under there at 7:30 that morning.

The owner chose to put a PV on the ground? That was his choice I assume. I'm not sure how that is a terrible bad thing that means we should all continue to kill our planet by burning carbon.


I think TheHeritic's pic is showing the effects of a local solar field installation. It may be related to jlf's "fungus" post. The solar installation tore up the ground cover and now there is a great increase in dust storms, etc.


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RE: The realities of renewable energy. - 5/7/2013 7:42:47 AM   
FunCouple5280


Posts: 559
Joined: 10/30/2012
Status: offline 		FR~

Sam- You keep bringing up sunpower on this thread and others..They are what they say they are but at more than 2x the price per Watt of most 16% efficient panels on the market, so they make your payback curve even more long term. The 40% efficient stuff are gallium arsenide panels aka space grade solar. A regular PV system would cost 100x per watt out of those, so no payback there. However, you will point out you that you can put a small chip of it into a concentrator and get systems that are nearly the same cost per Watt. However, there is a problem, when you go to concentrators, you have to track the sun. You have to do it accurately within 1-2 degrees. This means you can't just stick crap on a roof, you add the limited reliability of a mechanical tracking system, you get no power generation with even light cloud cover, and you need land to accommodate a moving system.

The name of the game is $/Watt. Conventional PV has all the techy stuff whipped. It is all improving and will continue to do so. Conventional PV 5 years ago was usually at module efficiencies of 14% and cost several $ a watt. Today they are less than a$/watt and regularly get 16% or higher in efficiency. Sunpower is also incompatible with all other equipment on the market other than their own proprietary crap because they positive grounded. They live off gov contracts and do not compete well in the marketplace. Plus they are assholes, for years we tried to work with them on developing some off-grid products and they just refused....Who refuses to work with someone who can get you a premium on your product????


JLF~

It is not in its infancy, its past being a toddler. The reality is it the cost is much closer to parity and continues to fall. FFs are finite resources that continue to get more costly. Even if AEs stop getting cheaper, the inflation of FF will eventually pass them in cost. Remember FFs are a limited resource, AEs are a technology based energy system.

What you have completely wrong isn't the land issues its this notion of putting a square peg in a round hole. We are obsessed with making AEs fit into our current grid without re-imagining the grid. AEs are intermittent power sources. The wind doesn't always blow and the sun sets everyday. To make them completely viable we need power storage built into the grid. That is the first hurdle. The second is that AEs don't do well as big centrally located generators like coal plants. It is far better to cover every roof, parking garage, parking lot, and even build things up and over our road ways. The issue with centrally located AEs is that it costs a fortune to build massive power transmission lines. Distributing that power near its consumers makes the most sense. In western cities there is more than enough land and sun to power them that way. But you need to build in distributed power storage, and a smart grid. If you distribute you lose much of the transmission losses we have today. This actually reduces the need for power the city has.

Finally, every state needs to do what we did here in CO. We passed a constitutional amendment prohibiting anyone from interfering with your right to access free power. In much of the country, people struggle with HOAs and utility companies when trying to implement person AE systems. With that amendment, no hoa can say we think they are ugly, the utility company has to allow you to connect that system to the grid and no county can deny you a permit. Although you have to follow code and comply with the hoa if they say you have to use black solar panels not white ones, they can't outright deny you. We need to knock down the road blocks. Despite all the green-press there are a lot of people pushing back and preventing its spread and acceptance.

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RE: The realities of renewable energy. - 5/7/2013 8:09:15 AM   
cloudboy


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Musicmystery was more optimistic.

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RE: The realities of renewable energy. - 5/7/2013 8:35:56 AM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FunCouple5280
Finally, every state needs to do what we did here in CO. We passed a constitutional amendment prohibiting anyone from interfering with your right to access free power. In much of the country, people struggle with HOAs and utility companies when trying to implement person AE systems. With that amendment, no hoa can say we think they are ugly, the utility company has to allow you to connect that system to the grid and no county can deny you a permit. Although you have to follow code and comply with the hoa if they say you have to use black solar panels not white ones, they can't outright deny you. We need to knock down the road blocks. Despite all the green-press there are a lot of people pushing back and preventing its spread and acceptance.


The zoning laws for my property allows for a small wind-turbine if your property is 3+ acres. I don't understand, personally, the issue with my particular property (2 acres), that prohibits my putting up a wind turbine. I have to follow the sizing restrictions (top of the prop arc 125' or less; minimum bottom of the prop arc restrictions, siting restrictions, etc.) I could literally erect a turbine on my property that would comply with every current size/site regulation except the 3+ acre requirement. Once I'm to the point where I could afford to add one, I'll be shucking out $250 for the zoning board to consider a variance (which won't even be guaranteed). The position of my house faces East) makes my roof a less-than-ideal candidate for PV solar, though I am likely to consider a solar air heater, which shouldn't be quite as position-reliant.

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RE: The realities of renewable energy. - 5/7/2013 8:41:52 AM   
FunCouple5280


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Status: offline 		Do you have a driveway with southern access or a large shed or barn? There is always the PV carport.

That restriction kind of sux on the wind turbine. Have you called out a geothermal expert?

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RE: The realities of renewable energy. - 5/7/2013 8:52:50 AM   
Hillwilliam


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic



And yes, there was a nice green lawn under there at 7:30 that morning.






Same here
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/04/05/exxon-oil-spill-photos-mayflower-arkansas_n_3024336.html#slide=2305193

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RE: The realities of renewable energy. - 5/7/2013 8:56:34 AM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FunCouple5280
Do you have a driveway with southern access or a large shed or barn? There is always the PV carport.
That restriction kind of sux on the wind turbine. Have you called out a geothermal expert?


Too many tall trees in the area to support the necessary sunlight for "outbuildings." I'm thinking of a solar liquid heater for the garage and some sort of pump to circulate the liquid to provide for snow removal for my gravel driveway.

I have not called out a geothermal expert yet. I am not in position to invest in that. I do plan on going geothermal (with the solar air heater providing additional heating capacity). I currently do not have a furnace (space heaters took care of this past winter, thank God it was relatively mild) and will be looking to rerun all my ducting and adding a high volume air handler at the very minimum. That should help keep air temps relatively even from basement to 2nd floor. Add in geothermal for heating/cooling and then a solar air heater for extra heat production and it's theoretically possible that I'll have a near emission free HVAC system (power for air handler and geothermal circulation pump). Adding in a wind turbine would also heavily reduce my grid-reliance, too.

I have looked into geothermal and like what I see. I will have to consult with an expert to see what my real options are (horizontal system, or if my former wellpoint could be converted now that the area has city water). I want to do as much of the work as I possibly can simply because I'm a cheap bastard and earth-moving tools look like a shitload of fun to use.




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RE: The realities of renewable energy. - 5/7/2013 9:40:26 AM   
FunCouple5280


Posts: 559
Joined: 10/30/2012
Status: offline 		Better get cracking on the that variance. However, you said tall trees. To really take advantage of the winds aloft you want to be at least 10m above the trees, nearby hills, etc. does that cause issues for that hieght restriction?

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