RE: Burial for Killers (Full Version)

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LafayetteLady -> RE: Burial for Killers (5/8/2013 4:13:54 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess

quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady

Again, funeral directors and morticians are typically not owners or even managers of cemeteries. Please stop implying they are.

By what I am reading here, then it would be wrong to ship the body back to his home country if that is what the family wanted to do. After all, they theoretically could decide that they wanted him buried in his homeland, where his grave could become a symbol for martyrdom.


While the family might want that - we also don't have to do it. He committed a criminal and terrorist act that resulted in 3 people's deaths according to the statements that his brother gave in the hospital. We are NOT required under International law to release his body to his family who are outside the U.S. No one anywhere in the world would argue that we are compelled to send him to his mother. So NO - the Jihadists do NOT get to make a martyr out him in Dagestan. They do not have that right (unless we are stupid enough to insist on sending the body to Dagestan). Again, why are we enabling the terrorists? A quick and quiet burial here in the U.S. with an unmarked grave, and let's get on to more important things. [sm=2cents.gif]


But you can't have it both ways. They HAVE released the body, so the family can ship him. If we can't refuse to bury him here, we also can't refuse to ship him to his homeland.

His being a "known" criminal/terrorist" is irrelevant now that he is dead.




LafayetteLady -> RE: Burial for Killers (5/8/2013 4:15:39 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LizDeluxe


quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady

Again, funeral directors and morticians are typically not owners or even managers of cemeteries. Please stop implying they are.

By what I am reading here, then it would be wrong to ship the body back to his home country if that is what the family wanted to do. After all, they theoretically could decide that they wanted him buried in his homeland, where his grave could become a symbol for martyrdom.


Why is this the decision of anyone but his next of kin? I'm not up to speed on the law as it relates to the remains of suspects (he was never convicted of anything) but doesn't the deceased become the property of the next of kin upon their death? If the family wants to bury him in his homeland is that not their right as long as they pay the tab? Bury the guy in an unmarked grave somewhere and be done with it. All this activity surrounding his burial (or lack of it) just extends his fifteen minutes of fame.


I agree. But as I said in my post above, we can't have it both ways; not have the right to refuse burial here, but the right to refuse allowing him to be buried in his homeland with his family. You must do both or none.




fucktoyprincess -> RE: Burial for Killers (5/8/2013 4:40:12 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady


quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess

quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady

Again, funeral directors and morticians are typically not owners or even managers of cemeteries. Please stop implying they are.

By what I am reading here, then it would be wrong to ship the body back to his home country if that is what the family wanted to do. After all, they theoretically could decide that they wanted him buried in his homeland, where his grave could become a symbol for martyrdom.


While the family might want that - we also don't have to do it. He committed a criminal and terrorist act that resulted in 3 people's deaths according to the statements that his brother gave in the hospital. We are NOT required under International law to release his body to his family who are outside the U.S. No one anywhere in the world would argue that we are compelled to send him to his mother. So NO - the Jihadists do NOT get to make a martyr out him in Dagestan. They do not have that right (unless we are stupid enough to insist on sending the body to Dagestan). Again, why are we enabling the terrorists? A quick and quiet burial here in the U.S. with an unmarked grave, and let's get on to more important things. [sm=2cents.gif]


But you can't have it both ways. They HAVE released the body, so the family can ship him. If we can't refuse to bury him here, we also can't refuse to ship him to his homeland.

His being a "known" criminal/terrorist" is irrelevant now that he is dead.



There seems to be some confusion. The uncle who is here is trying to have the man buried here in the U.S. But he is having difficulty finding a cemetery willing to take the body. The uncle is NOT asking for the body to be sent to Dagestan. American people are asking for the body to be sent to Dagestan because they don't want the body in this country. And, I personally, feel that would be a mistake because it creates a media opportunity that is unnecessary.




fucktoyprincess -> RE: Burial for Killers (5/8/2013 4:42:01 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LizDeluxe


quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady

Again, funeral directors and morticians are typically not owners or even managers of cemeteries. Please stop implying they are.

By what I am reading here, then it would be wrong to ship the body back to his home country if that is what the family wanted to do. After all, they theoretically could decide that they wanted him buried in his homeland, where his grave could become a symbol for martyrdom.


Why is this the decision of anyone but his next of kin? I'm not up to speed on the law as it relates to the remains of suspects (he was never convicted of anything) but doesn't the deceased become the property of the next of kin upon their death? If the family wants to bury him in his homeland is that not their right as long as they pay the tab? Bury the guy in an unmarked grave somewhere and be done with it. All this activity surrounding his burial (or lack of it) just extends his fifteen minutes of fame.


Again, the uncle is NOT asking for the body to be sent outside the U.S. He is trying to bury him here in the U.S. but no cemetery will take the body.

And I fully agree with not extending his fifteen minutes of fame. Bury him and let's get on with things.

Americans calling for the body to be sent "home" are not thinking through the full implications.




wittynamehere -> RE: Burial for Killers (5/8/2013 4:46:54 PM)

It's just a bunch of dead matter, quickly turning into soil. He's not in there anymore, but people aren't able to think that way. They believe if his atoms remain within the physical borders of the USA, that something really offensive and shameful is happening.

If the person that used to be in that body did horrible things, then I'm glad they're dead. I couldn't care less what happens to the physical leftovers, though.




LafayetteLady -> RE: Burial for Killers (5/8/2013 5:00:26 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess


quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady


quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess

quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady

Again, funeral directors and morticians are typically not owners or even managers of cemeteries. Please stop implying they are.

By what I am reading here, then it would be wrong to ship the body back to his home country if that is what the family wanted to do. After all, they theoretically could decide that they wanted him buried in his homeland, where his grave could become a symbol for martyrdom.


While the family might want that - we also don't have to do it. He committed a criminal and terrorist act that resulted in 3 people's deaths according to the statements that his brother gave in the hospital. We are NOT required under International law to release his body to his family who are outside the U.S. No one anywhere in the world would argue that we are compelled to send him to his mother. So NO - the Jihadists do NOT get to make a martyr out him in Dagestan. They do not have that right (unless we are stupid enough to insist on sending the body to Dagestan). Again, why are we enabling the terrorists? A quick and quiet burial here in the U.S. with an unmarked grave, and let's get on to more important things. [sm=2cents.gif]


But you can't have it both ways. They HAVE released the body, so the family can ship him. If we can't refuse to bury him here, we also can't refuse to ship him to his homeland.

His being a "known" criminal/terrorist" is irrelevant now that he is dead.



There seems to be some confusion. The uncle who is here is trying to have the man buried here in the U.S. But he is having difficulty finding a cemetery willing to take the body. The uncle is NOT asking for the body to be sent to Dagestan. American people are asking for the body to be sent to Dagestan because they don't want the body in this country. And, I personally, feel that would be a mistake because it creates a media opportunity that is unnecessary.



No confusion at all. Responding directly to your post.

Here in the US, no cemetery HAS to take the body. Those that are privately owned (the majority) can discriminate to their hearts content. Those that are owned by the city (which apparently is at least one that is refusing) can do so as a matter of public policy not wanting to disturb the resting place of the other "residents."

However, the reality is that there are those here in the states who would be "sympathetic" to this man's "cause." They can just as easily make him a martyr here, which would be more disturbing.

The "15 minutes" is dying down, and we are seeing less and less about this (at least I'm not noticing as much in my feeds).




tj444 -> RE: Burial for Killers (5/8/2013 8:20:50 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess

We are allowed to deal with criminals as we see fit. We don't owe his mother or people in Dagestan anything.


I dont think anyone has said his mother or the people of Dagestan are owed anything.. has anyone said that???

I find the mother extremely irritating, a liar, an accused thief who skipped out and feel she is the one that radicalized her sons, at least in part.. Of course she went on about wanting her son to be brought back to Russia but didnt do a darn thing to try to make that happen.. I get the impression that she didnt want to pay the cost of that.. so I dont feel anyone owes her anything.. and I dont think the US/city should pay anything for his burial, or shipping it or anything either..

The US policy on (living) immigrant criminals is to throw them in jail until they have finished their time and then put them on a plane back where they came from.. that is how the US govt sees fit to deal with them.. this guy is dead, but he could have still been "deported".. [;)] I expect if he hadnt been claimed by the uncle, he would have gotten a paupers grave and that would be the end of it (& the cheapest way to go).. As it stands tho, he is the uncle's problem to deal with..




fucktoyprincess -> RE: Burial for Killers (5/9/2013 6:40:15 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady

No confusion at all. Responding directly to your post.

Here in the US, no cemetery HAS to take the body. Those that are privately owned (the majority) can discriminate to their hearts content. Those that are owned by the city (which apparently is at least one that is refusing) can do so as a matter of public policy not wanting to disturb the resting place of the other "residents."

However, the reality is that there are those here in the states who would be "sympathetic" to this man's "cause." They can just as easily make him a martyr here, which would be more disturbing.

The "15 minutes" is dying down, and we are seeing less and less about this (at least I'm not noticing as much in my feeds).



And if the family is not asking the body to be shipped overseas and WE insist that the body go, are you suggesting taxpayer money be used to ship this body overseas? We can't force the family to pay to ship the body overseas. In fact, I'm quite sure they don't have the money to do so. And since when do we burden a family of a criminal with additional unnecessary expense. Did we do this to the families of other criminals in the country? Tamerlan is the guilty party here. His uncle is not.

Again, I'm just looking at the practical considerations. If cemeteries are willing to bury other criminals (and they do - routinely - where do you think the bodies of other criminals in the U.S. that require burial go??? We outsource a lot of things, but I'm not aware of routine outsourcing of burial of criminals.) I'm simply asking for his body to be handled the way criminal's bodies are typically handled. Why should we do anything differently here, especially when doing something differently actually gives the terrorists a huge media opportunity? Talk about misguided.




fucktoyprincess -> RE: Burial for Killers (5/9/2013 6:46:35 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444

I dont think anyone has said his mother or the people of Dagestan are owed anything.. has anyone said that???

I find the mother extremely irritating, a liar, an accused thief who skipped out and feel she is the one that radicalized her sons, at least in part.. Of course she went on about wanting her son to be brought back to Russia but didnt do a darn thing to try to make that happen.. I get the impression that she didnt want to pay the cost of that.. so I dont feel anyone owes her anything.. and I dont think the US/city should pay anything for his burial, or shipping it or anything either..

The US policy on (living) immigrant criminals is to throw them in jail until they have finished their time and then put them on a plane back where they came from.. that is how the US govt sees fit to deal with them.. this guy is dead, but he could have still been "deported".. [;)] I expect if he hadnt been claimed by the uncle, he would have gotten a paupers grave and that would be the end of it (& the cheapest way to go).. As it stands tho, he is the uncle's problem to deal with..


Yes, I agree - I find the mother annoying, too. All the more reason NOT to send the body back.

As for immigrant criminals, the point is that the U.S. does not want them continuing to live in the U.S and run the risk of them committing more crimes here. This guy is DEAD. I don't know about you, but as much as I enjoy stories about the supernatural, I don't actually lie awake at night worried some DEAD guy is going to commit another crime against humanity.......




fucktoyprincess -> RE: Burial for Killers (5/9/2013 7:15:05 AM)

Meanwhile as this saga continues it is costing taxpayers $10,000 a day for each day the burial is delayed. This is truly getting ridiculous.

http://bostonherald.com/news_opinion/local_coverage/2013/05/more_twists_in_tamerlan_tsarnaev_burial_saga




fucktoyprincess -> RE: Burial for Killers (5/9/2013 7:19:47 AM)

Okay, thank goodness this has finally come to an end:

http://www.boston.com/metrodesk/2013/05/09/body-tamerlan-tsarnaev-has-been-buried-undisclosed-location-worcester-police-say/iDpJpGifYzFQwBM71I7PXP/story.html

Now everyone can continue to focus on the investigation.



It is interesting to note that the city had to pay $50,000 in taxpayer money to keep the body sitting in the funeral home safely for 5 days - every day of burial delay cost the taxpayers $10,000. Again, how misguided was all of this when the same thing should have just been done 5 days ago?? People truly have no sense sometimes. People constantly complain about the way tax dollars are spent, but somehow, this is okay??? Just bizarre.




TallullahHk -> RE: Burial for Killers (5/9/2013 7:21:32 AM)

They just announced that Tamerlan Tsarnaev's body has been removed from the funeral home and buried at an undisclosed location. It took a plea from the Police Chief to get someone to step up and take the body.




Owner59 -> RE: Burial for Killers (5/9/2013 7:26:20 AM)

I can see how a marked grave here would bring both admirers and desecrators to the cemetery.I`d pee on his grave, given the chance.


Not fair for the families of the other`s buried there though.I couldn`t care less about the murderer.


Sending him home shouldn`t be a big deal.....no doubt a fund to ship his terrorist ass home would overflow in a day......


Speaking of peeing on graves.....where is timothy mcveigh buried?




Hillwilliam -> RE: Burial for Killers (5/9/2013 7:30:22 AM)

The reason they didn't ship him back to his hoeland was that Russia refused to allow it.




Aswad -> RE: Burial for Killers (5/9/2013 7:47:11 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

I`d pee on his grave, given the chance.


How very USMC of you.

May I express my contempt for your pretense of humanity as an example of what I've been criticising on this thread and others?

Because this is precisely the sort of reentrant sewage that allows terrorism to exist. Build something better in yourself and those around you, and in time you will outlast and outlive terrorism as a methodology altogether, and be a part of eliminating terrorism in the long term. Don't persist in the opposite.

IWYW,
— Aswad.




LafayetteLady -> RE: Burial for Killers (5/9/2013 8:43:08 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess


And if the family is not asking the body to be shipped overseas and WE insist that the body go, are you suggesting taxpayer money be used to ship this body overseas? We can't force the family to pay to ship the body overseas. In fact, I'm quite sure they don't have the money to do so. And since when do we burden a family of a criminal with additional unnecessary expense. Did we do this to the families of other criminals in the country? Tamerlan is the guilty party here. His uncle is not.

Again, I'm just looking at the practical considerations. If cemeteries are willing to bury other criminals (and they do - routinely - where do you think the bodies of other criminals in the U.S. that require burial go??? We outsource a lot of things, but I'm not aware of routine outsourcing of burial of criminals.) I'm simply asking for his body to be handled the way criminal's bodies are typically handled. Why should we do anything differently here, especially when doing something differently actually gives the terrorists a huge media opportunity? Talk about misguided.



You are either intentionally trying to be argumentative (poorly doing it, I will add), or you have horrible reading comprehension.

Do you understand that once the body was released to the uncle, the expense to citizens ended regarding what to do with the body? I have repeatedly stated that you simply can't have it both ways. Yet, you continue to change what you are saying.

I'm over it.

quote:



It is interesting to note that the city had to pay $50,000 in taxpayer money to keep the body sitting in the funeral home safely for 5 days - every day of burial delay cost the taxpayers $10,000. Again, how misguided was all of this when the same thing should have just been done 5 days ago?? People truly have no sense sometimes. People constantly complain about the way tax dollars are spent, but somehow, this is okay??? Just bizarre.


Again, is your reading comprehension faulting? I can't understand why you are intentionally trying to be misleading here.

The ten grand a day had nothing to do with "keeping the body sitting in the funeral home." It had to do with crowd control and the protesters.

Typically your posts at least make some sense. Here you have changed your "point" several times in an attempt to argue, and then posted the above in an attempt to further inflame people. What a waste.




fucktoyprincess -> RE: Burial for Killers (5/9/2013 1:20:51 PM)

D
quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady


quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess


And if the family is not asking the body to be shipped overseas and WE insist that the body go, are you suggesting taxpayer money be used to ship this body overseas? We can't force the family to pay to ship the body overseas. In fact, I'm quite sure they don't have the money to do so. And since when do we burden a family of a criminal with additional unnecessary expense. Did we do this to the families of other criminals in the country? Tamerlan is the guilty party here. His uncle is not.

Again, I'm just looking at the practical considerations. If cemeteries are willing to bury other criminals (and they do - routinely - where do you think the bodies of other criminals in the U.S. that require burial go??? We outsource a lot of things, but I'm not aware of routine outsourcing of burial of criminals.) I'm simply asking for his body to be handled the way criminal's bodies are typically handled. Why should we do anything differently here, especially when doing something differently actually gives the terrorists a huge media opportunity? Talk about misguided.



You are either intentionally trying to be argumentative (poorly doing it, I will add), or you have horrible reading comprehension.

Do you understand that once the body was released to the uncle, the expense to citizens ended regarding what to do with the body? I have repeatedly stated that you simply can't have it both ways. Yet, you continue to change what you are saying.

I'm over it.

quote:



It is interesting to note that the city had to pay $50,000 in taxpayer money to keep the body sitting in the funeral home safely for 5 days - every day of burial delay cost the taxpayers $10,000. Again, how misguided was all of this when the same thing should have just been done 5 days ago?? People truly have no sense sometimes. People constantly complain about the way tax dollars are spent, but somehow, this is okay??? Just bizarre.


Again, is your reading comprehension faulting? I can't understand why you are intentionally trying to be misleading here.

The ten grand a day had nothing to do with "keeping the body sitting in the funeral home." It had to do with crowd control and the protesters.

Typically your posts at least make some sense. Here you have changed your "point" several times in an attempt to argue, and then posted the above in an attempt to further inflame people. What a waste.


Let me ask you this. Would they have needed the crowd control for 5 days if the body had been buried 5 days ago. NO. What part of that equation do you not get. THEY WOULD HAVE SAVED $50,000 IN TAXPAYER MONEY IF THEY COULD HAVE BURIED HIM SOONER. That is indisputable.

And let me also ask you this. If no one had been willing to allow the body to be buried in the U.S. what exactly would you have recommended to the uncle to do? How are you supposed to send a body overseas when Russia refuses the body (as someone has suggested) AND you couldn't have afforded to send it. What advice would you have given the uncle. I understand the body was released to him. I am talking about the practical issues involved that you don't seem to grasp.

If someone tells you you can't bury a family member anywhere in the U.S. can you please explain to me what exactly YOU would do in practical and realistic terms? How difficult is this to understand. A rotting corpse....what would YOU do.....keep it in your home??????? How bizarre that you think I'm being weird here. How many sane people keep rotting corpses in their homes. I guess that's what you would tell him to do, because I'm not sure what else he could have done. Maybe that's how you deal with your dead, but ewwwwwww [:D]

Thank goodness I come from a culture where we cremate. Most environmentally clean and safe way to dispose of a body......




FunCouple5280 -> RE: Burial for Killers (5/9/2013 1:30:09 PM)

what about natural decomp.....




fucktoyprincess -> RE: Burial for Killers (5/9/2013 2:22:44 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: FunCouple5280

what about natural decomp.....


Isn't that what burial is, essentially? A sanitary way to allow the body to decompose rather than having it decompose in your living room [:'(]




FunCouple5280 -> RE: Burial for Killers (5/9/2013 2:33:03 PM)

not really, because of the enbalming and the box. I am talking about no casket or embalming, burlap sack, shallow grave, no marker, in a natually wooded area




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