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Those Crazy Americans - 5/8/2013 7:18:08 PM

Kirata

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Gun violence in America has fallen dramatically over the past two decades

Murders committed with a gun dropped 39 percent... Other crimes committed with guns were down even more sharply ...a drop of 70 percent

Sources of guns used in crimes:

less than two percent of convicted inmates reported buying their weapons at gun shows or flea markets. The highest number, 40 percent, said the guns came from a family member or a friend. About 37 percent said the weapons were stolen or obtained from an illegal source.

And according to Gallup:

Few Americans mention guns or immigration as the most important problems facing the nation today, despite the current attention lawmakers in Washington are giving to these issues.

Would anyone have gotten this impression from the media or the gun threads here?

K.

< Message edited by Kirata -- 5/8/2013 7:20:44 PM >

Post #: 1

RE: Those Crazy Americans - 5/8/2013 7:27:38 PM

LizDeluxe

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Gun control is never about guns. It is always about control.

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RE: Those Crazy Americans - 5/8/2013 7:45:15 PM

tj444

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imo, the govt wants to look like its "doing something", especially after someone shoots up a school or airport or whatever.. the horse has left the barn, there are just too many guns out there for "control" to do anything about it.. if someone wants a gun, its unfortunately easily had..

"The highest number, 40 percent, said the guns came from a family member or a friend. About 37 percent said the weapons were stolen or obtained from an illegal source. "

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RE: Those Crazy Americans - 5/8/2013 8:04:37 PM

TricklessMagic

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A figure to note is that less than 2 percent got a firearm from a gun show or flea market. But hey, those crazy facts.

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RE: Those Crazy Americans - 5/8/2013 8:26:21 PM

tj444

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TricklessMagic

A figure to note is that less than 2 percent got a firearm from a gun show or flea market. But hey, those crazy facts.

why bother with all that when you can easily get it from family/friends or just steal it?

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As Anderson Cooper said “If he (Trump) took a dump on his desk, you would defend it”

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RE: Those Crazy Americans - 5/8/2013 8:48:56 PM

kdsub

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Countries that have strict gun laws like the UK also have dropping crime rates just like the US and they do not have 8,500 murders committed by guns or 70,000 plus injured in gun accidents as in 2010.

So is it not reasonable to say that if both countries have dropping crime rates then the large number of killed and injured by guns are a waste with little or no difference in crime reduction?

Butch

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RE: Those Crazy Americans - 5/8/2013 8:52:50 PM

TricklessMagic

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Precisely. Straw purchasing needs to be dealt with in a major way with severe criminal penalties. We also need a nationwide effort to make any crime committed with a firearm, or criminal caught while in a possession of a firearm, do mandatory minimums of prison time. Ten year minimum to run consecutively for use of a firearm in a crime, three minimum for possession of a gun while engaged in criminal behaviour (drug dealing, assault, stalking, etc.), and have stiffer penalties where someone is injured or killed, like we have here in Florida where use of a gun is concerned in a crime.

Something I also tell my fellow gunnies, is we need to really focus on the suicide problem involving guns. More than half of all gun related deaths are suicides, and while that isn't a big deal to gunnies, it's a big deal to lefties and it's simply more fodder they have for their campaign. I'd like to see gun manufacturers and the NRA contribute to suicide prevention hotlines. Some group up in New Hampshire I believe started getting gun shops to let them post their suicide prevention hotline info. A good idea in my opinion.

Next we have to better tackle domestic violence because guns seem to play a roll when a murder is committed in relation to domestic violence. If we focus on those three things, we can get gun homicides down even farther pulling air out of the anti-gunners balloons.

I do a lot of pro bono on the domestic violence side of things and am trying to do more. When I can build something that works, I'll take it to my gun club as some of the big leaguers support the idea of doing charity work for suicide prevention and domestic violence prevention, they just don't know what to do.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444

quote:

ORIGINAL: TricklessMagic

A figure to note is that less than 2 percent got a firearm from a gun show or flea market. But hey, those crazy facts.

why bother with all that when you can easily get it from family/friends or just steal it?

(in reply to tj444)

Post #: 7

RE: Those Crazy Americans - 5/8/2013 8:59:03 PM

tj444

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Countries that have strict gun laws like the UK also have dropping crime rates just like the US

from what i have read, as men get older, they "calm down" and become less violent.. so I wonder if some of the drop has to do with boomers getting older and the fact that there are so many so have an effect on stats..

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RE: Those Crazy Americans - 5/8/2013 8:59:39 PM

TricklessMagic

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From the pro-gunners standpoint, it's a telling thing that while the circulation of guns has grown in number, along with the number of gun owners (while the percentage of gun owners has shrunk) growing as well, that deaths and injuries involving guns has gone down. Too often the extremists on the left have warned of "blood in the streets" when many states in America went to shall issue for concealed weapons permit (didn't happen). They also warned of letting the AWB sunset and the horror it would unleash on America, to only see the sales of firearms covered under the former ban skyrocket, and still gun deaths went down.

So it may not mean that more guns equals less crime. But at the same time, borrowing from the CDC I believe it was, more guns doesn't necessarily mean more crime. With that said, it's kind of ridiculous to most RKBA types for the left to be screaming gun control when all this is going on and the stats tell us that the total number of gun deaths and gun injuries is going down across America, as the population of America has grown quite significantly in the last twenty years (I think we've taken in more immigrants than the total population of France in the last twenty years).

Europe is enjoying a decrease as well I guess. I don't presume to know. I only really care about what is going on in Switzerland as I have family there (left Israel) and I find their politics enjoyable.

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Countries that have strict gun laws like the UK also have dropping crime rates just like the US and they do not have 8,500 murders committed by guns or 70,000 plus injured in gun accidents as in 2010.

So is it not reasonable to say that if both countries have dropping crime rates then the large number of killed and injured by guns are a waste with little or no difference in crime reduction?

Butch

(in reply to kdsub)

Post #: 9

RE: Those Crazy Americans - 5/8/2013 9:26:53 PM

BamaD

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Countries that have strict gun laws like the UK also have dropping crime rates just like the US

from what i have read, as men get older, they "calm down" and become less violent.. so I wonder if some of the drop has to do with boomers getting older and the fact that there are so many so have an effect on stats..

I have repeatedly mentioned a piece I read in the late 60s, early 70s, before crimed peaked out that said this very thing. He not only predicted the jump but the decline all based on demographics and all before the fact.

(in reply to tj444)

Post #: 10

RE: Those Crazy Americans - 5/8/2013 9:29:10 PM

Owner59

Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

Gun violence in America has fallen dramatically over the past two decades

Murders committed with a gun dropped 39 percent... Other crimes committed with guns were down even more sharply ...a drop of 70 percent

Sources of guns used in crimes:

less than two percent of convicted inmates reported buying their weapons at gun shows or flea markets. The highest number, 40 percent, said the guns came from a family member or a friend. About 37 percent said the weapons were stolen or obtained from an illegal source.

And according to Gallup:

Few Americans mention guns or immigration as the most important problems facing the nation today, despite the current attention lawmakers in Washington are giving to these issues.

Would anyone have gotten this impression from the media or the gun threads here?

K.

Violence in general ....has been falling in the US......even in states that aren`t gun-nuttorious.....

It`s not because there are more guns as the gunneria claims.....

When the nra-gop start discussing the problem honestly....they might be taken seriously....

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"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

President Obama

(in reply to Kirata)

Post #: 11

RE: Those Crazy Americans - 5/8/2013 9:33:32 PM

BamaD

Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Countries that have strict gun laws like the UK also have dropping crime rates just like the US and they do not have 8,500 murders committed by guns or 70,000 plus injured in gun accidents as in 2010.

So is it not reasonable to say that if both countries have dropping crime rates then the large number of killed and injured by guns are a waste with little or no difference in crime reduction?

Butch

Those Countries had a comparably lower crime rate BEFORE passing draconian gun laws maybe we need to look at the societal differences.
I don't claim to know that much about crime rates in other countries but the states provided by our overseas freinds on here to prove that their rates haven't gone up also indicate that they haven't gone down and if so not as dramatically as it has here.

(in reply to kdsub)

Post #: 12

RE: Those Crazy Americans - 5/8/2013 9:49:49 PM

Kirata

Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

Violence in general ....has been falling in the US......even in states that aren`t gun-nuttorious.....

It`s not because there are more guns as the gunneria claims.....

I'm not aware of anyone who claims that our crime rates have been falling because of more guns. Are you?

K.

< Message edited by Kirata -- 5/8/2013 9:51:03 PM >

(in reply to Owner59)

Post #: 13

RE: Those Crazy Americans - 5/8/2013 10:01:58 PM

dcnovice

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quote:

I'm not aware of anyone who claims that our crime rates have been falling because of more guns. Are you?

John R. Lott (author of More Guns, Less Crime) appeared to be saying that in a 1998 intereview about his then-new book.

I don't know if his views have changed since then.

ETA: See also http://www.infowars.com/statistics-prove-more-guns-less-crime/

A variety of views: http://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2011/01/11/more-guns-less-crime

< Message edited by dcnovice -- 5/8/2013 10:07:28 PM >

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Post #: 14

RE: Those Crazy Americans - 5/8/2013 10:05:15 PM

Owner59

Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

Violence in general ....has been falling in the US......even in states that aren`t gun-nuttorious.....

It`s not because there are more guns as the gunneria claims.....

I'm not aware of anyone who claims that our crime rates have been falling because of more guns. Are you?

K.

quote:

When the nra-gop start discussing the problem honestly....they might be taken seriously....

I`ll refer you to the last sentence on my comment....

"When the nra-gop start discussing the problem honestly....they might be taken seriously...."

No wonder you edited my quote down....

_____________________________

"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

President Obama

(in reply to Kirata)

Post #: 15

RE: Those Crazy Americans - 5/8/2013 10:23:36 PM

cloudboy

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The Freakonomics author attributes our falling crime rates to the legalization of abortion in the 70s.

(in reply to Kirata)

Post #: 16

RE: Those Crazy Americans - 5/8/2013 10:52:42 PM

Kirata

Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

I`ll refer you to the last sentence on my comment....

I ignored that part of your quote because it doesn't matter who you're accusing. Let's get back to the question you're evading: When was this alleged claim made? By who? With a link.

K.

< Message edited by Kirata -- 5/8/2013 10:53:33 PM >

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Post #: 17

RE: Those Crazy Americans - 5/8/2013 11:12:37 PM

BamaD

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quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

The Freakonomics author attributes our falling crime rates to the legalization of abortion in the 70s.

Freakanomics is uegenics under a different name.
It is clearly wrong because his theory does not explain the spike in crime in the 70s.

(in reply to cloudboy)

Post #: 18

RE: Those Crazy Americans - 5/8/2013 11:18:20 PM

BamaD

Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

I`ll refer you to the last sentence on my comment....

I ignored that part of your quote because it doesn't matter who you're accusing. Let's get back to the question you're evading: When was this alleged claim made? By who? With a link.

K.

There are a number of studies incuiding Lotts that sugest a slight drop in crime with ccw passage, but nothing to suggest this kind of drop. And none of them make that claim.
Maybe when the Dems will talk about the truth, that only the Brady Bunch did a study claiming more gun lead to more crime.
They refused to allow review of their statistics or methodology so that study is only accepted by gun grabbers.

< Message edited by BamaD -- 5/8/2013 11:19:21 PM >

(in reply to Kirata)

Post #: 19

RE: Those Crazy Americans - 5/8/2013 11:43:06 PM

Kirata

Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

I'm not aware of anyone who claims that our crime rates have been falling because of more guns. Are you?

John R. Lott (author of More Guns, Less Crime) appeared to be saying that in a 1998 intereview about his then-new book.

What Lott says in that piece is simply, "States with the largest increases in gun ownership also have the largest drops in violent crimes." That's not a claim that more guns are responsible for the falling crime rate overall. It's implicit in his statement that crime has been going down in states with low gun ownership too.

I'm not familiar with Lott, he's not among my usual citations, but I gather from the link you posted that he's basing his statements on the availability of concealed carry. If not, there are other studies that do suggest more concealed carry reduces crime. But Lott seems to acknowledge that this is what he's talking about when he says: "Concealed handgun laws reduce violent crime for two reasons."

He also observes that, "Many countries, such as Switzerland, New Zealand, Finland, and Israel have high gun-ownership rates and low crime rates, while other countries have low gun ownership rates and either low or high crime rates." So he knows that differences in culture are a significant factor, that it's not just about guns.

The slogan "more guns, less crime" refers to guns being carried by law-abiding people, not just more guns, and certainly not more guns in the wrong hands. Unfortunately, it's a slogan that makes some people start to twitch.

quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

ETA: See also http://www.infowars.com/statistics-prove-more-guns-less-crime/

The thrust of that piece [boldface in the original] is against the opposite -- "more guns, more crime" -- position:

The figures clearly illustrate that rising gun ownership does not cause a rise in violent crime

Not that proving one false would prove the other true, but c'mon. It's Infowars. Being pro-gun doesn't equate to membership in the Space Brigade.

K.

< Message edited by Kirata -- 5/9/2013 12:41:29 AM >

(in reply to dcnovice)

Post #: 20

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