quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess
Sadly, many people who come from religions that espouse proselytizing don't even seem to know what it is, and don't realize their religion espouses it (!) It's fairly well impossible to have discussions about religion when most people don't even understand their own religions. It's like the time I pointed out to a Christian that Jesus was, in fact, born a Jew and raised in the Jewish faith. They spent a lot of energy being upset over that and trying to convince me otherwise - but it's true. I just don't understand why so many religious people are so ignorant of their own religions. If you are religious don't you spend any time studying about your own religion????? Who knows?? I would give up entirely if they weren't constantly trying to impose their beliefs on me.........[&:]

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
There must be cadres of eager atheists knocking on doors on Saturday morning spreading the "good news." At least in the paranoid delusions of certain christians.

quote:

PAUL JAY, SENIOR EDITOR: So you recently joined the board of the Military Religious Freedom Foundation. Why?

COL. LAWRENCE WILKERSON, FMR. CHIEF OF STAFF TO COLIN POWELL: I didn't know the problem was as rampant as it is. And when Mikey Weinstein, who is the head of the foundation, identified to me that his board member Doherty, Glen Doherty, had just been killed in Benghazi and he needed a replacement, I was a little reluctant, because I understand that sometimes Christ is necessary in the foxhole, or Buddha, or whomever. And so I wasn't really interested in it. And then Mikey showed me the depth and profundity of the violations of the Constitution going on in the Armed Forces of the United States, and I changed my mind immediately.

JAY: Okay. So I said the name very quickly when I said Military Religious Freedom Foundation, so we better dig into what all that means. And, in fact, we did a story with Mikey Weinstein a few years ago, and he primarily has been focused on the sort of collaboration between some of the military leadership and outside evangelical churches to proselytize in the army, in the military forces. So where is that at? 'Cause in terms of Real News coverage, we're a few years later now.

WILKERSON: Right. Well, one group in particular - and you can just Google them and you can see what they're about, called the Dominionists. THIS IS A GROUP THAT BELIEVES THAT ITS MISSION IS TO TAKE OVER THE ARMED FORCES OF THE UNITED STATES AND THEN USE THEM IN A CRUSADE AGAINST ALL THOSE WHO DON'T BELIEVE IN CHRIST IN THE WORLD. Mikey's clientele now is over 32,000, some 90 percent of whom are Protestant or Catholic. SO YOU'VE GOT MOSTLY CHRISTIANS WHO WERE LOOKING TO MIKEY'S ORGANIZATION TO PROTECT THEM AGAINST THE CHAIN OF COMMAND IN THEIR OWN MILITARY UNIT.

JAY: So when you say clients, these are people that have complaints.

WILKERSON: Yes.

JAY: Which are what?

WILKERSON: THEY'RE EVERYTHING FROM I'VE BEEN ORDERED TO GO TO A PRAYER BREAKFAST TO I'M BEING PROSELYTIZED BY MY COMMANDING OFFICER OR BY MY PLATOON LEADER OR BY MY NCOS TO BE A CHRISTIAN; OR WORSE, IF YOU WILL, ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THAT COIN, PEOPLE BEING DERIDED AND EVEN KEPT FROM PROMOTION AND FROM ADVANCEMENT, EDUCATION, AND TRAINING, AND SO FORTH BECAUSE THEY'RE NOT THE KIND OF CHRISTIAN THEY SHOULD BE, THIS SORT OF DOMINIONIST CHRISTIAN.

So it's a scary proposition when you start thinking about the ability of leadership in the Armed Forces to coerce people, and to get away with it, and religion. It's not quite as bad in one respect as sexual assault, which is also rampant in the Armed Forces right now and is because leadership won't crack down on it, but ultimately it is a violation of the Constitution and it is something clearly that bothers people if Mikey's got over 30,000 clients.

JAY: Now, when you were in the military and coming up through the ranks and when you become an officer, how much of this was already going on?

WILKERSON: There was very little of it. My first, perhaps, run in with it was with a chaplain that I had in a squadron in which I was the executive officer. And this chaplain actually was an evangelical chaplain and did some things that I had to caution him about. And he immediately corrected what he was doing.

I HAD NO IDEA THAT IT HAD SPREAD THE WAY IT HAS SPREAD NOW WITH CERTAIN OF THE MORE FUNDAMENTALIST RELIGIONS IN THIS COUNTRY ACTUALLY COMBATING THE MORE MAINLINE RELIGIONS. SO YOU HAVE BAPTISTS AND PRESBYTERIANS AND METHODISTS AND LUTHERANS WHO ARE MORE OR LESS ON OUR SIDE IN THE MRFF BECAUSE THEY'RE BEING DERIDED AND DENIGRATED BY THE DOMINIONISTS WITHIN THE RANKS. IF YOU'RE A BAPTIST, YOU'RE NO GOOD. IF YOU'RE A PRESBYTERIAN, YOU'RE NO GOOD. IF YOU'RE LUTHERAN, YOU'RE NO GOOD. IF YOU'RE CATHOLIC, YOU'RE ANATHEMA. AND IF YOU'RE JEWISH, YOU'RE TRULY ANATHEMA. IF YOU'RE MUSLIM, YOU'RE THE ENEMY....

If you look at it from the perspective that the military should be looking at it from - and I think they are now - -that is, good order and discipline in the military, you want good order and discipline in the military. IT'S A VIOLATION OF THE UNIFORM CODE OF MILITARY JUSTICE, THE LEGAL SYSTEM FOR THE ARMED FORCES, IF YOU DISTURB THAT GOOD ORDER AND DISCIPLINE. AND THAT'S WHAT THESE DOMINIONISTS ARE DOING, THAT'S WHAT CHRISTIANS LIKE THIS ARE DOING.

WE'RE NOT, AT THE MRFF, AGAINST CHRISTIANITY. WE'RE NOT IN ANY WAY AGAINST CHRISTIANITY. WE'RE AGAINST ALL FORMS OF MISUSE OF THE LEADERSHIP TO PROSELYTIZE, TO FORCE, TO CAJOLE PEOPLE INTO DOING THINGS BECAUSE YOU BELIEVE THEY SHOULD BASED ON YOUR RELIGION, NOT BASED ON GOOD ORDER AND DISCIPLINE IN THE ARMED FORCES.

JAY: And isn't it illegal?

WILKERSON: It is illegal. IT'S UNCONSTITUTIONAL ON THE ONE HAND, AND IT'S ILLEGAL ON THE OTHER.

JAY: And is the military leadership doing anything about it?

WILKERSON: Well, that's one reason why we went to the Pentagon a couple of weeks ago to talk to the leadership of the Air Force. And I think they were listening, so far, as with sexual assault. The military has not brought the hammer down, and it's going to take bringing the hammer down, punishing some of these leaders, punishing some of these people who are violating the law and the Constitution before the message gets out to the rest of the military that this won't be condoned. And, frankly, it's just not happening the way it should be happening....

The problem is you need the bond between soldiers in order to have an effective fighting force. It's not Mom and apple pie and patriotism. When the rubber hits the road, when the bombs start dropping, when the artillery fire starts, it's not that that keeps soldiers together; it's the bond between them, it's the bond forged in training, the bond forged in combat. S. L. A. Marshall wrote a brilliant piece about this post World War II. This is what keeps soldiers together.

IMAGINE WHAT YOU DO TO THAT BOND WHEN YOU SEXUALLY ASSAULT YOUR COMRADE, OR WHEN YOU PROSELYTIZE THEM ABOUT JESUS CHRIST WHEN THEY'RE JEWISH OR THEY'RE MUSLIM, OR YOU TELL THEM, AS HAS HAPPENED ON MANY OCCASIONS, THAT THEY'RE A LOWER FORM OF LIFE BECAUSE THEY DON'T BELIEVE IN JESUS CHRIST. THIS IS UNCONSCIONABLE, AND IT'S VERY DAMAGING TO THE BOND BETWEEN SOLDIERS.

JAY: And this is a Christianity which essentially is the Christianity of medievalism. It's the Christianity of the Crusades.

WILKERSON: Of the Inquisition. It's the Christianity of the Inquisition. That's what these people are, inquisitors.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Fightdirecto

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
There must be cadres of eager atheists knocking on doors on Saturday morning spreading the "good news." At least in the paranoid delusions of certain christians.

My encounters with "eager atheists" (I prefer the term "Evangelical atheists") are usually people I meet through work. Their common trait seems to be a recent (within 1 year) conversion to atheism - and all new converts to any belief system (yes, I consider atheism a "belief system" because that is what they "believe" - not what they "know") tend to be zealots and evangelize.

Ever meet a newly converted vegetarian who goes ballistic on you when you eat a hamburger in their presence? Or someone who just recently quit smoking or drinking alcohol and gets upset when anyone smokes a cigarette or drinks a beer in front of them? That's the kind of person I'm talking about.

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ORIGINAL: Kirata

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ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Same reason that athiests cant have a discussion without feeble minded relgionists all over the place drooling.

Yeah right. Every time the nice Atheists try to have a discussion, the thread becomes infested with missionaries exhorting them to accept the Lord Jesus Christ as their personal savior. You see that all the time around here. Why only just yesterday....

K.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Same reason that athiests cant have a discussion without feeble minded relgionists all over the place drooling.

Yeah right. Every time the nice Atheists try to have a discussion, the thread becomes infested with missionaries exhorting them to accept the Lord Jesus Christ as their personal savior. You see that all the time around here. Why only just yesterday....

K.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Same reason that athiests cant have a discussion without feeble minded relgionists all over the place drooling.

Yeah right. Every time the nice Atheists try to have a discussion, the thread becomes infested with missionaries exhorting them to accept the Lord Jesus Christ as their personal savior. You see that all the time around here. Why only just yesterday....

K.

Perhaps not, but there's certainly examples of godbotherers complaining about atheists in this very thread, never mind the rest of the forum.

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ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess

Tell me the last time you had an atheist knock on your door trying to "convert" you.[&:]

Now you're just quibbling about methods. How about billboards and signs on the sides of busses promoting Atheism, and the fact that it is impossible to have a thread on Religion in this forum without half a dozen Atheists piling in to piss on it?

K.

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Oh, I love seventh day adventists, I wear them out and try to turn them to the darkside, they won't come to my door anymore.

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ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Oh, I love seventh day adventists, I wear them out and try to turn them to the darkside, they won't come to my door anymore.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess
Sadly, many people who come from religions that espouse proselytizing don't even seem to know what it is, and don't realize their religion espouses it (!) It's fairly well impossible to have discussions about religion when most people don't even understand their own religions. It's like the time I pointed out to a Christian that Jesus was, in fact, born a Jew and raised in the Jewish faith. They spent a lot of energy being upset over that and trying to convince me otherwise - but it's true. I just don't understand why so many religious people are so ignorant of their own religions. If you are religious don't you spend any time studying about your own religion????? Who knows?? I would give up entirely if they weren't constantly trying to impose their beliefs on me.........[&:]

I remember trying to explain to my cousin's preacher, who had made an  antisemitic joke when he found out I lived near Skokie IL., that the last supper was a Passover seder. It was like the man had never even read the bible.

quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess
Sadly, many people who come from religions that espouse proselytizing don't even seem to know what it is, and don't realize their religion espouses it (!) It's fairly well impossible to have discussions about religion when most people don't even understand their own religions. It's like the time I pointed out to a Christian that Jesus was, in fact, born a Jew and raised in the Jewish faith. They spent a lot of energy being upset over that and trying to convince me otherwise - but it's true. I just don't understand why so many religious people are so ignorant of their own religions. If you are religious don't you spend any time studying about your own religion????? Who knows?? I would give up entirely if they weren't constantly trying to impose their beliefs on me.........[&:]

I remember trying to explain to my cousin's preacher, who had made an  antisemitic joke when he found out I lived near Skokie IL., that the last supper was a Passover seder. It was like the man had never even read the bible.

I was always fascinated by the Nazi approach to identifying Jews which often ignored conversions to Christianity (they treated Judaism as a race and therefore went by definitions whereby even one Jewish grandparent was sufficient, regardless of what religion you practiced). First of all, there is no Christian religion without conversion (no one could be born Christian unless someone along the way had converted). Second, Jesus was a Jew. So you have an entire religion that treats a Jewish man as the messiah and then one branch of that religion decides they are going to eliminate all Jews including Jews who have converted to Christianity. Well, that makes a whole heck of a lotta sense - to worship a Jew and then claim that others who are Jewish are a race and even one Jewish grandparent would condemn you to the camps. So by their own definitions, Jesus would have been sent to die in the concentration camps. [&:]