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RE: Another Progressive Victory! - 5/15/2013 9:20:05 PM   
Powergamz1


Posts: 1927
Joined: 9/3/2011
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The same way all segregated schools were equal?
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel
I very much agree with you that everyone has a right to be treated equally and as such I'm against your marriage and strongly in favor of you having to refer to it as a civil union.


If I'm reading Michael correctly, all civil benefits will be attached to the "civil union" part. The "marriage" part will be but a subset of civil unions and will confer no benefits outside of any a religious institution confers. That is, in the eyes of government, a marriage is but a civil union like a JoP civil union, or a same sex civil union. All civil unions get the same civil benefits.




_____________________________

"DOMA is unconstitutional as a deprivation of the equal liberty of persons that is protected by the Fifth Amendment" Anthony McLeod Kennedy

" About damn time...wooot!!' Me

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: Another Progressive Victory! - 5/16/2013 4:50:19 AM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Powergamz1
The same way all segregated schools were equal?
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel
I very much agree with you that everyone has a right to be treated equally and as such I'm against your marriage and strongly in favor of you having to refer to it as a civil union.

If I'm reading Michael correctly, all civil benefits will be attached to the "civil union" part. The "marriage" part will be but a subset of civil unions and will confer no benefits outside of any a religious institution confers. That is, in the eyes of government, a marriage is but a civil union like a JoP civil union, or a same sex civil union. All civil unions get the same civil benefits.


Yeah, this is exactly the same as segregation.

Considering how no one is being discriminated against, regarding the civil benefits, I'm not sure how you get to that point. But, there's a lot of shit going on these boards that I don't know how people get to the bullshit positions they take.


_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to Powergamz1)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: Another Progressive Victory! - 5/16/2013 5:46:14 AM   
thompsonx


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Joined: 10/1/2006
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quote:

Yeah, this is exactly the same as segregation.

Considering how no one is being discriminated against, regarding the civil benefits,



So you do agree that someone is being discriminated against but just not regarding civil benifits?


quote:

I'm not sure how you get to that point.


How bout we do it this way and see if it still works . All the jesus phreques get to call theirs civil unions and all the gay folks get to call it marriage. Pretty simple algebra...if a=b then b=a.

quote:

But, there's a lot of shit going on these boards that I don't know how people get to the bullshit positions they take.


Asking werx for me.

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: Another Progressive Victory! - 5/16/2013 5:51:22 AM   
ClassIsInSession


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Enjoy your new taxes...never understood why having the right to marry is a big deal when it's only a matter of what you pay in taxes and who you can leave your stuff to without challenge from probate.

(in reply to thompsonx)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: Another Progressive Victory! - 5/16/2013 5:56:35 AM   
thompsonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ClassIsInSession

Enjoy your new taxes...


What new tax obligation have I incurred?



(in reply to ClassIsInSession)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: Another Progressive Victory! - 5/16/2013 5:58:14 AM   
Zonie63


Posts: 2826
Joined: 4/25/2011
From: The Old Pueblo
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr


Churches won't be forced to engage in activities that violate their tenets.



I didn't think that churches were actually forced to engage in activities that violate their tenets. If a certain religion or church is against certain types of marriages, wouldn't they have the right to refuse to marry them?

I do tend to agree that government should get out of the marriage business altogether. Apart from the religious significance and its sentimental value, it's really just a contract, isn't it? You don't need a priest for that, although maybe a lawyer might be useful. I've never put much meaning into ceremonies and rituals, and the marriage ceremony itself seems rather pointless and absurd when you really think about it.

Of course, I think everyone has the right to marry anyone they want, and the government should recognize that right. But I also believe that individual churches also have the right to decide which kinds of marriage ceremonies they'll perform. Some churches allow it, others don't. I don't know that it makes much difference what we call it. It makes me think that all this public debate and argument has only been over a pointless religious ceremony and what we choose to call it.

(in reply to DaddySatyr)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: Another Progressive Victory! - 5/16/2013 6:57:08 AM   
Powergamz1


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Joined: 9/3/2011
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Attempt to change the subject with a strawman is noted.

'Separate but equal' was struck down by the US Supreme Court because it is never equal.
You can support this homophobic 'civil unions' all you want, it will never pass Constitutional muster because it functions as unequally as it did when segregationists tried it.
.
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: Powergamz1
The same way all segregated schools were equal?
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel
I very much agree with you that everyone has a right to be treated equally and as such I'm against your marriage and strongly in favor of you having to refer to it as a civil union.

If I'm reading Michael correctly, all civil benefits will be attached to the "civil union" part. The "marriage" part will be but a subset of civil unions and will confer no benefits outside of any a religious institution confers. That is, in the eyes of government, a marriage is but a civil union like a JoP civil union, or a same sex civil union. All civil unions get the same civil benefits.


Yeah, this is exactly the same as segregation.

Considering how no one is being discriminated against, regarding the civil benefits, I'm not sure how you get to that point. But, there's a lot of shit going on these boards that I don't know how people get to the bullshit positions they take.




_____________________________

"DOMA is unconstitutional as a deprivation of the equal liberty of persons that is protected by the Fifth Amendment" Anthony McLeod Kennedy

" About damn time...wooot!!' Me

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: Another Progressive Victory! - 5/16/2013 7:00:27 AM   
Powergamz1


Posts: 1927
Joined: 9/3/2011
Status: offline
WHat it is, is you making stuff up. Again.
quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr

Here's a funny one (that my idea would nullify): I know for a fact that in the state of New Jersey, in 2004 (maybe later), a couple that had been legally married for 10 years needed a "re-marriage" license in order to renew their vows in a church. The minister/rabbi/priest/whatever was not allowed to perform a ceremony without a permit from the state?

Is this anything other than the state, finding a way to make money off of a strictly religious/personal emotional practice?



Peace and comfort,



Michael




_____________________________

"DOMA is unconstitutional as a deprivation of the equal liberty of persons that is protected by the Fifth Amendment" Anthony McLeod Kennedy

" About damn time...wooot!!' Me

(in reply to DaddySatyr)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: Another Progressive Victory! - 5/16/2013 7:48:16 AM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx
quote:

Yeah, this is exactly the same as segregation.
Considering how no one is being discriminated against, regarding the civil benefits,

So you do agree that someone is being discriminated against but just not regarding civil benifits?


Since the only thing that being allowed to marry really confers are civil benefits, no, no one is being discriminated against.

quote:

quote:

I'm not sure how you get to that point.

How bout we do it this way and see if it still works . All the jesus phreques get to call theirs civil unions and all the gay folks get to call it marriage. Pretty simple algebra...if a=b then b=a.

As long as the civil benefits are carried by "civil union" status, I, personally, have no issue, but I think you'll have a much greater resistance with religious folk. It being a civil union does imply it not being a religious thing, but merely a legal construct. When it comes to unions, religious types certainly do maintain it being a religious thing while also acknowledging it's a legal thing, too (which is why I think it should be called a marriage).




_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to thompsonx)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: Another Progressive Victory! - 5/16/2013 7:54:21 AM   
freedomdwarf1


Posts: 6845
Joined: 10/23/2012
Status: offline
FR~

This topic has intrigued me quite a bit.

Firstly, the term "marriage" as far as I can work out, only dates back to around the 14th century when the church was really becoming the powerhouse behind any ruler.

The idea behind a "pairing" ceremony has been around a long time before christians and similar religions came into being.
Various peoples around the world had some form of ceremony for the celebration of two people coming together as a single unit. The Pagans, Wiccans and similar spin-offs had a "hand-fasting" ritual. Others such as the Inca, Mayan etc also had something similar.
The term "marriage", other than the explicit meaning of a wedding, also means "an intimate or close union" which most people seem to have forgotten.

The christians stole this idea and used it for themselves; along with several other bits from Paganism and other cultures.
The pairing ceremony was almost exclusively performed by the religious elders or leaders of the group or society because those being 'paired' wanted recognition of the act and with that recognition came various other priviliges and niceties.
This is where the civil rights from marriage came from originally and subsequently enshrined in law because the religion and the leader/state were effectively being rolled into a single unit by the time the christians came around.

I personally think that the religious leaders of christianity (and similar others) were some of the first to disentangle themselves from the leader/state totalitarianism that was evolving. But, despite being quite separate in many ways, they are still inextricably entwined together when it comes to legalities.
For instance... Theoretically, anyone can marry any other two (or more) people within the confines of whatever group/religion they happen to follow and for that group, they would be classified as "married" or "paired". However, since the division of the state/leadership from the religion over the last couple of millenia, you now have to satisfy certain state conditions before you are considered "married" and qualify for those extras and priviliges.
A good example of this can be shown in Pagan, Wiccan, Buddhist, some Islamic religions and many others where the "marriage" ceremony is not recognised by the state because it hasn't followed a particular ritual or contained certain words for them to recognise it. And if the state doesn't recognise it, you miss out on the other 'legal' niceties. Some examples of these niceties could be keeping the land/property/livestock/posessions if your spouse dies instead of it going to the next (usually male) in line to inherit.

Take my particular case.... As a Pagan, my brother (a Pagan/Wiccan high priest) married us with a full hand-fasting ritual and for our Pagan community we were considered "married" to all intent and purposes. But, because it wasn't performed by a state-certified person (payment required) or on designated ground where such rituals are allowed (more payments) AND it didn't contain certain phrases pertaining to "our lord god" - it was not recognised by the state and as such we had to go through a minimal civil marriage ceremony with those certain words () so it was "legal" here.

As for same-sex marriages or partnerships, I do tend to agree with Michael that the word "marriage" does usually mean a religious connotation and because of that it would also usually infer a pairing between a (natural) man and a woman. Because the religious zealots (mainly the christians) have effectively monopolised the word for their own uses it would be ridiculous for the state to use the same word for a ceremony/ritual that the church would not normally allow in their own followings/teachings. So it would make sense to call those pairings in the religious world a 'marriage' and the pairings to satisfy the state definitions/benefits as a 'civil union/partnership' or some other such phrase.
I'm sorry if the gay/lesbian population don't agree and can't understand why the religious zealots and 'normal' sheeple don't agree with the word 'marriage' for them, but it's a simple case of distinction of where your ceremony/ritual is held and what religious/legal status it has.


As for Zonie's comment, a "marriage" is more than 'just a contract'. Anyone can draw up a contract between two or more people and explicitly lay out all the terms and conditions that all parties agree to and what the implications would be should anyone be in breach of it. A marriage has certain other benefits that come with it that are enshrined in law and are automatically invoked at conception without reference to a long and complex document each and every time.


(in reply to Zonie63)
Profile   Post #: 50
RE: Another Progressive Victory! - 5/16/2013 7:55:33 AM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ClassIsInSession
Enjoy your new taxes...never understood why having the right to marry is a big deal when it's only a matter of what you pay in taxes and who you can leave your stuff to without challenge from probate.


From a purely legal standpoint, that's about it. But, from another standpoint, you can also be barred from attending to a "partner" because you aren't family. Not all insurance programs support coverage for same-sex partners, and they do have a point there. Without there being a civil "contract," covering a same sex partner can be abused by some to get benefits for someone who isn't truly a partner/spouse. Those aren't really government things, but would likely no longer be an issue once anyone is allowed to marry either gender.

You can look at those as still being civil benefits, too. And, to an extent, they are. The eyes of the Church don't really rely on the institution of marriage for the civil benefits, but for the religious impact they have.

_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to ClassIsInSession)
Profile   Post #: 51
RE: Another Progressive Victory! - 5/16/2013 8:03:19 AM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63
quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr
Churches won't be forced to engage in activities that violate their tenets.

I didn't think that churches were actually forced to engage in activities that violate their tenets. If a certain religion or church is against certain types of marriages, wouldn't they have the right to refuse to marry them?


Look at it this way, if same sex marriage is a right, then it's theoretically possible that two people can sue for discrimination, no? Maintaining a separation of the Church and the State can be done, and should be done.

quote:

I do tend to agree that government should get out of the marriage business altogether. Apart from the religious significance and its sentimental value, it's really just a contract, isn't it? You don't need a priest for that, although maybe a lawyer might be useful. I've never put much meaning into ceremonies and rituals, and the marriage ceremony itself seems rather pointless and absurd when you really think about it.
Of course, I think everyone has the right to marry anyone they want, and the government should recognize that right. But I also believe that individual churches also have the right to decide which kinds of marriage ceremonies they'll perform. Some churches allow it, others don't. I don't know that it makes much difference what we call it. It makes me think that all this public debate and argument has only been over a pointless religious ceremony and what we choose to call it.


Actually, that isn't exactly the case. The religious peeps don't want same sex unions to have the same benefits as marriage. That's an attempt to legislate morality (for them) regardless of whether or not that's the explicit goal. Making a "civil union" the legal contract carrying all the civil benefits can allow the church to not be forced to perform any unions that cross the articles of it's faith. Having a marriage simply be a civil union performed as a religious sacrament separates the State from mandating the Church do anything, while still allowing for the civil benefits to be enjoyed.

_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to Zonie63)
Profile   Post #: 52
RE: Another Progressive Victory! - 5/16/2013 8:15:44 AM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Powergamz1
Attempt to change the subject with a strawman is noted.
'Separate but equal' was struck down by the US Supreme Court because it is never equal.
You can support this homophobic 'civil unions' all you want, it will never pass Constitutional muster because it functions as unequally as it did when segregationists tried it.


"homophobic 'civil unions'?" I don't think you got what I said. ALL hetero- or homo- unions would be civil unions. All of them. Every single one. No matter who performs it, or where it's performed. All civil benefits will be carried by their being civil unions. A "marriages" would be a subset of civil unions, and only apply to those performed as a religious rite. Additionally, if a man and a woman go down to the JoP to wed, it would be a civil union and not a marriage (it wasn't performed as a religious rite). And, even further, if a Church sanctioned homosexual unions, any weddings performed as a religious rite within that faith, would be marriages.

So, there is no real segregation as all the non-religious benefits to the wedding of two people would be carried by the civil union status.


_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to Powergamz1)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: Another Progressive Victory! - 5/16/2013 8:49:13 AM   
mnottertail


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Joined: 11/3/2004
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The federal government will not and cannot mandate that any particular preacher has to marry any particular anything.  If it would be mandated it would be done at the state level.  

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 54
RE: Another Progressive Victory! - 5/16/2013 9:40:30 AM   
Yachtie


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Joined: 1/18/2012
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I think it's hysterical, the traditional 98%, being hetero-sexual, is permitting the historical homosexual 2% to destroy one of its institutions. How is this possible without the complicit activity of the Progressive liberal left? I swear, liberals are more destructive than the atom bomb, acting with wild abandon and giving no thought to the destruction being wrought. Liberals actually applaud it, rationalizing its inherent betterment over centuries of civilization which their betterment is actively destroying.

_____________________________

“We all know it’s going to end badly, but in the meantime we can make some money.” - Jim Cramer, CNBC

“Those who ‘abjure’ violence can only do so because others are committing violence on their behalf.” - George Orwell

(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 55
RE: Another Progressive Victory! - 5/16/2013 9:46:22 AM   
mnottertail


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Well, of course that is horseshit, it aint 98% and 2% nor is it a 'institutution'  and it would only be the rightist nazi slime that are destroying america.

Take a look at what the teabaggers are felching down there in congress.

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


(in reply to Yachtie)
Profile   Post #: 56
RE: Another Progressive Victory! - 5/16/2013 9:49:49 AM   
FunCouple5280


Posts: 559
Joined: 10/30/2012
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Again why we should strip marriage out of the law and just make it civil unions. Although I am hetero, if I wasn't married I would union with a dude for the privileges. The law discriminates against platonic friends, the asexual as well as those chronically lonely nerds. Why shouldn't they be able to have bro-wives as roommates to benefit from the tax code, or have a medical proxy etc.? Let's face it a lot of people marry and never have kids, so the procreation argument is specious at best

(in reply to Yachtie)
Profile   Post #: 57
RE: Another Progressive Victory! - 5/16/2013 9:57:44 AM   
freedomdwarf1


Posts: 6845
Joined: 10/23/2012
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie

I think it's hysterical, the traditional 98%, being hetero-sexual, is permitting the historical homosexual 2% to destroy one of its institutions. How is this possible without the complicit activity of the Progressive liberal left? I swear, liberals are more destructive than the atom bomb, acting with wild abandon and giving no thought to the destruction being wrought. Liberals actually applaud it, rationalizing its inherent betterment over centuries of civilization which their betterment is actively destroying.

I would seriously question those statistics...

Several websites are stating approx 1 in 5 people are "gay".

Another site said -
"Harvard School of Public Health found that 6.2% to 20.8% of American men and 3.3% to 17.8% of women could be considered homosexual".
And of course, that doesn't count those that are considered as "bisexual" as opposed to strictly "heterosexual".

And as far as "permitting the historical homosexual 2% to destroy one of its institutions" - the 'institutions' are exclusively religious and have only been 'an institution' for the last two millenia.

(in reply to Yachtie)
Profile   Post #: 58
RE: Another Progressive Victory! - 5/16/2013 10:01:11 AM   
FunCouple5280


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I doubt pure gay (not bi) will ever be above 5-10%....those numbers are most likely politically inflated.....

(in reply to freedomdwarf1)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: Another Progressive Victory! - 5/16/2013 10:02:22 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
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And only an institution to a very few of them feeble-minded religious folks.

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


(in reply to freedomdwarf1)
Profile   Post #: 60
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