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RE: General Ideas for a Tax System - 5/20/2013 3:26:22 PM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx
quote:

"Tyranny of the majority
Is that some sort of faux news code speak for democracy?
Is there something intrinsically flawed with the concept of democracy?
Only someone who desires tyranny of the minority would oppose tyranny of the majority.

quote:

It's great living in a democracy, innit?

For those who did not get the memmo...the u.s. is a republic...so is n.korea


My point exactly. So, why would you even ask if there's an intrinsic flaw in democracy? We don't even have a democracy. Damn.

Glad you caught it.


_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to thompsonx)
Profile   Post #: 81
RE: General Ideas for a Tax System - 5/20/2013 3:32:57 PM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx
quote:

quote:
quote:
What happens when consumption takes a nosedive and you no longer have enough money coming in to support the level of government you have?

Prima facia evidence that a consumption tax is stupid?
quote:

Actually, it's evidence that you support a large size and scope of government.

That would be an asanine evaluation based on both ignorance and perconcieved notions.
quote:

The answer to the question is that you you reduce the size of government to meet the revenues produced.

Or one could stop the war in the sandbox.


And, isn't that happening? Yet, all the projections are for increased spending, year after year after year. So, what the fuck does that have to do with anything? I'm all for removing our troops from "the sandbox" and have been for years now.

quote:

quote:

Completely unlike what we have in the US.

Since, as pointed out, that does not exist in the u.s. how do we explane the u.s being the most powerful economy in the world?


You do realize that increased government spending is going to have an upward effect on the economy in and of itself, right?


_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to thompsonx)
Profile   Post #: 82
RE: General Ideas for a Tax System - 5/21/2013 3:28:59 AM   
SpanishMatMaster


Posts: 967
Joined: 9/28/2011
Status: offline 		Hello again, Desideri!

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
You want to decrease artificial CO2 production. Tax the batshit out of it, if that is the choice of Germany's Citizenry. But, each country gets to decide for themselves.

Ok then - apparently you agree on the basic idea, then :)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
what happens if Germany's economy is depressed because of the increased taxation of artificial CO2 production

There should not happen such thing. Remember that the total amount of tax is the same, so why should the economy get more depressed as with the current taxes on incomes, which represent the same amount of taxes?
That's the point, please. Think carefully. I have said it many times - I am not proposing a tax increase or decrease. So - why exactly should those taxes damage the economy more than the current ones with the same amount?

Now, if taxes at all are depressing the economy, Keynes told us what to do. But that problem goes out of scope of this discussion, it does not depend on the kind of taxes.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
(and what, exactly, counts as artificial will have to be fleshed out before the taxes can be levied)

Yes, of course, but I hope you agree that currently "income" also has to be fleshed out. There are no 100% solutions to define "income" and "expenses" and still we make laws based on sufficient approximations. The same would apply here.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
What happens if the German economy is depressed because no one else decides to tax artificial CO2 production

That makes no sense. What if the rest of the world is depressed because they tax the income? Your question makes as much sense as my question: what if X is depressed because it taxes something.

If you want to break this equality, then please explain why exactly the taxes on CO2 production are more bound to depress the economy as the income taxes. IMHO it is exactly the opposite - income taxes penalize sustainable development which can be exported and has a brilliant future, penalizes new technologies. So why the hell should a change which, I repeat, does not increase the total tax burden, only moves it in a more technology-oriented, future-oriented way... provoke any depression!? I do not get it!

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
Why is the process is creating the artificial CO2? You can't just tax emissions.
Why I cannot?

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
Business isn't creating emissions just to create emissions.
This is their problem. I am taxing emissions, no matter why they are produced.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
let's just talk about power generation
No. Let's talk about emissions. You told what I would tax. I would tax emissions. Not power generation.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
Taxing emissions is also taxing power generation
No, it is taxing emissions.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
If there is no other suitable option for power production to replace the CO2 producing generation, you are then taxing a positive (power generation).
No, I am taxing emissions. I am sorry but I think that you are playing with words. I am taxing emissions. And you have not shown any problem on taxing emissions. Please no word playing problems like "at the end you are taxing innovative science because their offices use energy produced expelling CO2". This is just a game of words. Just tell me what real and concrete problem economical problem you see on taxing emissions.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
What happens when the producers don't want to pay the tax? They either sell, or they close up shop, right?

You are making a bunch of "worst possible scenario" suppositions, which I could use to "prove" that the current system is bound to disaster too. Really. Even if you convince me that your scenario would lead to a disaster, this is no more a proof as if I used the same kind of "worst possible" scenarios to break the *current* tax system.

But ok, let go with if for a while...

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
What do you do when they all decide to close up shop. What are you going to do then?

1. Buy the shops at cheap prices and sell them to more reasonable producers, who are ready to improve their systems and make money.
2. Buy the shops at cheap prices and sell the energy. Double gain. Plus, improve the systems so that I can sell the shops for good money later.
3. Dismantle the shops and transform their energy production to something more sustainable.

+ Be happy. We are producing less CO2.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
Even if it takes 2 years to wind down everything in an environmentally friendly way, what will Germans do for power? There isn't enough power production (you have a shitload of capacity from wind turbines that could cover, if you could come close to capacity, but there simply isn't enough wind in enough places to get there) that wouldn't have to pay those taxes. What happens at that point?

1. There is enough wind.
2. There are other systems (geothermal, solar...)
3. See above.
4. Your scenario is absurd, nor should any government change the whole tax system in a year, nor would companies flee en masse when they get their taxes reduced in other fronts, nor would this mean that those energy plants would be closed (see above).

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
not that simple

Please, please answer me this question: not as simple as *WHAT*? Because I have the impression that many people are analysing my proposals as if the current system was simple / just / efficient / positive for the economy.

The post #68 being a perfect example, as if I had invented tax dumping with my proposal...

So... my general ideas are not that simple as...? as which simple system...?

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
Moving back to the US
Nope! :)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
I completely agree that we should aim to only tax those things that we want to decrease. Relying on "consensus" or "majority rules" is just going to end up being either not having enough to tax, or tyranny of the majority.
You have not proved this.

1. You use "worst case" scenarios when actually the most probable scenario is not only "things remain equal" but "we get a huge boost in the economy at all levels".
2. Even so, I can find strategies to reduce the negative impacts.
3. And you have shown no problem in my strategy, which is worse or equal problems already resolved in the current system.

So... best regards :)

< Message edited by SpanishMatMaster -- 5/21/2013 4:01:32 AM >

_____________________________

Humanist (therefore Atheist), intelligent, cultivated and very humble :)
If I don't answer you, maybe I "hid" you: PM me if you want.
“Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, pause and reflect.” (Mark Twain)

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 83
RE: General Ideas for a Tax System - 5/21/2013 3:37:44 AM   
SpanishMatMaster


Posts: 967
Joined: 9/28/2011
Status: offline 		Hello again, eulero.

quote:

ORIGINAL: eulero83
if your tax reform will be applied there won't be pubblic services provided or any kind of welfare could be suppoerted, 'cos you named just a few things to put a tax on, this means taxes will be high or worth nothing as no service will be guaranteed
As I have explained many times, there is a universe of things I can tax, and the total tax burden would be the same so I would support the same as now.

Objection refuted. Next?

quote:

ORIGINAL: eulero83
I come from from one of the country that taxes property (cars, real estate, televisions...) with profits, incomes, energy, sold goods, and almost anything else, and by the way economy IS collapsing. The problem with taxing only "the rich people"...


... and I stop reading here. Try again, this time reading what I actually write.

Best regards.

_____________________________

Humanist (therefore Atheist), intelligent, cultivated and very humble :)
If I don't answer you, maybe I "hid" you: PM me if you want.
“Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, pause and reflect.” (Mark Twain)

(in reply to eulero83)
Profile   Post #: 84
RE: General Ideas for a Tax System - 5/21/2013 3:41:35 AM   
SpanishMatMaster


Posts: 967
Joined: 9/28/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
The purpose of taxation in to finance the government your general ideas would subvert it to social engineering based on the values of whoever is in power at the moment, are you by any chance an admitted socialist?


Hello!

No, the only purpose of taxation is not to finance the government, that's why they get tax reductions when they support some NGO's.

No, I am not subverting anything, the current government already supports stuff with money, which is considered good by the people in power. See for example the whole space program.

If the majority of the US citizens (who support both tax reductions on companies spending money on NGOs, and the existence of the NASA) are socialists, then yes, I am a socialist.

Please, get serious.

Best regards.

< Message edited by SpanishMatMaster -- 5/21/2013 3:52:57 AM >

_____________________________

Humanist (therefore Atheist), intelligent, cultivated and very humble :)
If I don't answer you, maybe I "hid" you: PM me if you want.
“Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, pause and reflect.” (Mark Twain)

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 85
RE: General Ideas for a Tax System - 5/21/2013 3:45:14 AM   
SpanishMatMaster


Posts: 967
Joined: 9/28/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: eulero83
quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx
Only someone who desires tyranny of the minority would oppose tyranny of the majority.

Sometimes I am glad I hid some people.
thompsonx, if you cannot separate "tyranny of the majority" (democracy with no control whatsoever, direct and popular) from a modern democracy, which keeps its basic democratic character but protecting the minorities which republican controls, a constitution, etc... then sorry but please learn first, participate later.
Gosh.

_____________________________

Humanist (therefore Atheist), intelligent, cultivated and very humble :)
If I don't answer you, maybe I "hid" you: PM me if you want.
“Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, pause and reflect.” (Mark Twain)

(in reply to eulero83)
Profile   Post #: 86
RE: General Ideas for a Tax System - 5/21/2013 3:51:15 AM   
SpanishMatMaster


Posts: 967
Joined: 9/28/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
My point exactly. So, why would you even ask if there's an intrinsic flaw in democracy? We don't even have a democracy. Damn.
You are not serious, are you?
The US is a democratic republic. A democracy, where all the power comes from the people, but where these people have decided to behave according to rules which allow representatives to control each other, and which protect the minority. On the spirit of George Washington, "I do not like what you say but I would defend with my life your right to say it" (quoting by memory).

I'm not saying it is perfect, nor that it cannot be improved. But if you think you are not living in a democracy... well I was born in Chile 1970. Friends of my parents were killed three years later.

Please don't tell me that you are another thompsonx ... see above...

_____________________________

Humanist (therefore Atheist), intelligent, cultivated and very humble :)
If I don't answer you, maybe I "hid" you: PM me if you want.
“Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, pause and reflect.” (Mark Twain)

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 87
RE: General Ideas for a Tax System - 5/21/2013 4:15:00 AM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SpanishMatMaster
Hello again, Desideri!
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
You want to decrease artificial CO2 production. Tax the batshit out of it, if that is the choice of Germany's Citizenry. But, each country gets to decide for themselves.

Ok then - apparently you agree on the basic idea, then :)


From a very general sense, yes. Is that really all you wanted to see? I would find it amazing that anyone would want to do it any other way.

quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
What happens if the German economy is depressed because no one else decides to tax artificial CO2 production

That makes no sense. What if the rest of the world is depressed because they tax the income? Your question makes as much sense as my question: what if X is depressed because it taxes something.
If you want to break this equality, then please explain why exactly the taxes on CO2 production are more bound to depress the economy as the income taxes. IMHO it is exactly the opposite - income taxes penalize sustainable development which can be exported and has a brilliant future, penalizes new technologies. So why the hell should a change which, I repeat, does not increase the total tax burden, only moves it in a more technology-oriented, future-oriented way... provoke any depression!? I do not get it!


Let's say France decides that taxing income is a better way to go about things than to ratchet up taxes on CO2 emissions. If France and Germany are using the same methods of production, German goods will end up costing more because the cost of emissions taxes will get put into the cost of the product. The net effect will be that French manufactured goods could end up ruining the demand for the same goods manufactured in Germany. Reduced demand results in reduced output, no?

quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
Why is the process is creating the artificial CO2? You can't just tax emissions.
Why I cannot?


Because emissions aren't being created for no reason. You can't tax a result of manufacturing without it affecting the manufactured good. It's part of the cost of goods. That would be like saying that giving everyone a raise doesn't effect the price of the good.

_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to SpanishMatMaster)
Profile   Post #: 88
RE: General Ideas for a Tax System - 5/21/2013 4:40:18 AM   
eulero83


Posts: 1470
Joined: 11/4/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SpanishMatMaster

Hello again, Desideri!

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
You want to decrease artificial CO2 production. Tax the batshit out of it, if that is the choice of Germany's Citizenry. But, each country gets to decide for themselves.

Ok then - apparently you agree on the basic idea, then :)


rewrite it without sarcasm please

(in reply to SpanishMatMaster)
Profile   Post #: 89
RE: General Ideas for a Tax System - 5/21/2013 4:41:11 AM   
SpanishMatMaster


Posts: 967
Joined: 9/28/2011
Status: offline 		Hello again!

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
From a very general sense, yes. Is that really all you wanted to see? I would find it amazing that anyone would want to do it any other way.
Well, check the other participants... one is calling me a socialist . Should I sign you up in the International ?

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
Let's say France decides that taxing income is a better way to go about things than to ratchet up taxes on CO2 emissions. If France and Germany are using the same methods of production, German goods will end up costing more because the cost of emissions taxes will get put into the cost of the product.
Not really. German goods are produced by a mixture of energies, so while some are more expensive, other would be chearper, and they are produced in a system which less taxes besides the CO2 one. The net effect is the same price. In the beginning.
And later, less price for Germany, as their technologies are more future-oriented and sustainable.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
Because emissions aren't being created for no reason. You can't tax a result of manufacturing without it affecting the manufactured good.
Eveything affects everything, of course, but I am indeed taxing only emissions. I simply dislike playing with words so everybody ends up taxing everything just because, well, at the end everything is connected to each other in economy (if you go this way, sorry but the US taxes on tobacco are taxing the lollypop market in Greece...).

The cost of the goods remains constant as the total tax burden remains constant. Please keep this in mind. I am increasing some taxes and reducing other ones. So, some market will produce cheaper, others more expensive (depending on their CO2 "burden"). Some companies will loose market share, others will increase their share. Please consider the total, if you only consider the negative part you are not being objective / fair.

Best regards.

< Message edited by SpanishMatMaster -- 5/21/2013 4:50:48 AM >

_____________________________

Humanist (therefore Atheist), intelligent, cultivated and very humble :)
If I don't answer you, maybe I "hid" you: PM me if you want.
“Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, pause and reflect.” (Mark Twain)

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 90
RE: General Ideas for a Tax System - 5/21/2013 4:42:08 AM   
freedomdwarf1


Posts: 6845
Joined: 10/23/2012
Status: offline 		SM... You advocate taxing just emmisions.
That just doesn't work at all.

You quote all sorts of 'other' energy sources.

You say there is enough wind.... There isn't! Plain and simple.
Until the technology evolves to produce 20x or more what it currently does, there isn't enough wind power to meet current power demands by industry and the general populace.

You mention geothermal.
Unless you happen to be close to where geothermal energy can be harnessed and used effectively, most countries do not have geothermal capability; let alone anything that can be used on a workable scale.

You mention Solar too.
Solar conversion is still in its infancy and unless you live in, or on the fringe of, a tropical desert, you couldn't have enough solar area to make any sort of significant contribution to the power requirements of even a modest country.

You missed out wave power.
That is currently under trials in various places around the world.
And of course, it is utterly useless to any land-locked country.

At the moment, just about all of the 'alternative' and green energy production is too costly to be of any real benefit to anyone just yet.
It's no good spending a $ to save a penny - that's just ass-backwards logic and benefits nobody.

The EU are trying to impose a carbon tax for airlines using EU air space.
It isn't working. China and most of the far east just refused to pay it, as did Russia.
They just refused to fly into EU air space and saved themselves and their passengers a shitload of money.
As with any business, if it's not economically viable, you don't do it. Simples!

As Desi tried to explain to you, if a business decides it's not making enough profit it shuts up shop.
Also, as the world in general is trying to reduce the generation of greehouse gasses, the tax revenues you speak of would slowly dwindle to insignificance in the future.
So who or what would you tax next?
You can't run a country on fresh air - that's just a completely stupid notion.
You seem to be thinking in terms of a utopian society where the idea looks to work in theory but proves to be useless in reality.
What you are proposing is just unsustainable. Period.

(in reply to SpanishMatMaster)
Profile   Post #: 91
RE: General Ideas for a Tax System - 5/21/2013 4:42:15 AM   
eulero83


Posts: 1470
Joined: 11/4/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

Let's say France decides that taxing income is a better way to go about things than to ratchet up taxes on CO2 emissions. If France and Germany are using the same methods of production, German goods will end up costing more because the cost of emissions taxes will get put into the cost of the product. The net effect will be that French manufactured goods could end up ruining the demand for the same goods manufactured in Germany. Reduced demand results in reduced output, no?

quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
Why is the process is creating the artificial CO2? You can't just tax emissions.
Why I cannot?


Because emissions aren't being created for no reason. You can't tax a result of manufacturing without it affecting the manufactured good. It's part of the cost of goods. That would be like saying that giving everyone a raise doesn't effect the price of the good.


it's exactly what I wrote in post #72

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 92
RE: General Ideas for a Tax System - 5/21/2013 4:42:32 AM   
SpanishMatMaster


Posts: 967
Joined: 9/28/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: eulero83
quote:

ORIGINAL: SpanishMatMaster
Hello again, Desideri!
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
You want to decrease artificial CO2 production. Tax the batshit out of it, if that is the choice of Germany's Citizenry. But, each country gets to decide for themselves.

Ok then - apparently you agree on the basic idea, then :)

rewrite it without sarcasm please
No sarcasm was intended and none was also understood by the person quoted. He actually does agree.
Seeing that you behave like a troll, and not for the first time, the discussion ends here. Hidden. Bye.


_____________________________

Humanist (therefore Atheist), intelligent, cultivated and very humble :)
If I don't answer you, maybe I "hid" you: PM me if you want.
“Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, pause and reflect.” (Mark Twain)

(in reply to eulero83)
Profile   Post #: 93
RE: General Ideas for a Tax System - 5/21/2013 5:08:51 AM   
eulero83


Posts: 1470
Joined: 11/4/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SpanishMatMaster

quote:

ORIGINAL: eulero83
quote:

ORIGINAL: SpanishMatMaster
Hello again, Desideri!
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
You want to decrease artificial CO2 production. Tax the batshit out of it, if that is the choice of Germany's Citizenry. But, each country gets to decide for themselves.

Ok then - apparently you agree on the basic idea, then :)

rewrite it without sarcasm please
No sarcasm was intended and none was also understood by the person quoted. He actually does agree.
Seeing that you behave like a troll, and not for the first time, the discussion ends here. Hidden. Bye.



I'm not acting like a troll, you cut the quote before his confutation of your idea, taking his sentence out of contest and then told "apparently you agree on the basic idea" there are only two possibilities or you are reading just what you want to read and not what other people really meant or you were sarcastic. But I see you just avoid to answer all the posts that are not as nebolous as your post.

I just say this: letting people decide how much taxing a business just on personal feeling and not knowing how are real costs and investment needed to run the business, it's just insane, it's not fair, not practical, not better, it's just populistic and
ruinous. period.

(in reply to SpanishMatMaster)
Profile   Post #: 94
RE: General Ideas for a Tax System - 5/21/2013 5:28:56 AM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SpanishMatMaster
Hello again!
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
From a very general sense, yes. Is that really all you wanted to see? I would find it amazing that anyone would want to do it any other way.
Well, check the other participants... one is calling me a socialist . Should I sign you up in the International ?
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
Let's say France decides that taxing income is a better way to go about things than to ratchet up taxes on CO2 emissions. If France and Germany are using the same methods of production, German goods will end up costing more because the cost of emissions taxes will get put into the cost of the product.
Not really. German goods are produced by a mixture of energies, so while some are more expensive, other would be chearper, and they are produced in a system which less taxes besides the CO2 one. The net effect is the same price. In the beginning.
And later, less price for Germany, as their technologies are more future-oriented and sustainable.
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
Because emissions aren't being created for no reason. You can't tax a result of manufacturing without it affecting the manufactured good.
Eveything affects everything, of course, but I am indeed taxing only emissions. I simply dislike playing with words so everybody ends up taxing everything just because, well, at the end everything is connected to each other in economy (if you go this way, sorry but the US taxes on tobacco are taxing the lollypop market in Greece...).


I'm perfectly okay with that. I want to decrease the lollipop market in Greece.

quote:

The cost of the goods remains constant as the total tax burden remains constant. Please keep this in mind. I am increasing some taxes and reducing other ones. So, some market will produce cheaper, others more expensive (depending on their CO2 "burden").


This is where you are wrong, though. If you stop taxing income and make up for it by taxing things, including artificial CO2 production, the net effect isn't going to be anything but an increase in cost of goods. While that may be perfectly okay for the average German (they just got a raise, in essence), that will hurt their goods on the global market.

quote:

Some companies will loose market share, others will increase their share. Please consider the total, if you only consider the negative part you are not being objective / fair.
Best regards.


Are you threatening to tax me? LOL!

_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to SpanishMatMaster)
Profile   Post #: 95
RE: General Ideas for a Tax System - 5/21/2013 5:40:34 AM   
SpanishMatMaster


Posts: 967
Joined: 9/28/2011
Status: offline 		Hello!

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
This is where you are wrong, though. If you stop taxing income and make up for it by taxing things, including artificial CO2 production, the net effect isn't going to be anything but an increase in cost of goods.

Why?

Please explain why changing the way to tax without increasing the total tax burden, will increase the average cost of goods (=inflation).

IMHO it is the opposite. Better oriented consumption, rapid changes in the technology, even faster reduction of the waste, and the general decrease of taxes on "positive" economic actions, would rapidly lead to economy growth, increases in efficiency, reduction of costs and improvements of the productivity.

But I hear you. Tell me.

Best regards.

< Message edited by SpanishMatMaster -- 5/21/2013 5:52:32 AM >

_____________________________

Humanist (therefore Atheist), intelligent, cultivated and very humble :)
If I don't answer you, maybe I "hid" you: PM me if you want.
“Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, pause and reflect.” (Mark Twain)

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 96
RE: General Ideas for a Tax System - 5/21/2013 6:09:20 AM   
eulero83


Posts: 1470
Joined: 11/4/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SpanishMatMaster

Hello!

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
This is where you are wrong, though. If you stop taxing income and make up for it by taxing things, including artificial CO2 production, the net effect isn't going to be anything but an increase in cost of goods.

Why?

Please explain why changing the way to tax without increasing the total tax burden, will increase the average cost of goods (=inflation).

IMHO it is the opposite. Better oriented consumption, rapid changes in the technology, even faster reduction of the waste, and the general decrease of taxes on "positive" economic actions, would rapidly lead to economy growth, increases in efficiency, reduction of costs and improvements of the productivity.

But I hear you. Tell me.

Best regards.


Because your general idea moves tax main source from work to capital and if capital is not invested there is no work and this leads to depressing the economy.

(in reply to SpanishMatMaster)
Profile   Post #: 97
RE: General Ideas for a Tax System - 5/21/2013 7:11:46 AM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SpanishMatMaster
Hello!
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
This is where you are wrong, though. If you stop taxing income and make up for it by taxing things, including artificial CO2 production, the net effect isn't going to be anything but an increase in cost of goods.

Why?
Please explain why changing the way to tax without increasing the total tax burden, will increase the average cost of goods (=inflation).
IMHO it is the opposite. Better oriented consumption, rapid changes in the technology, even faster reduction of the waste, and the general decrease of taxes on "positive" economic actions, would rapidly lead to economy growth, increases in efficiency, reduction of costs and improvements of the productivity.
But I hear you. Tell me.
Best regards.


You have government getting revenues from two sources: income and "negatives." All the negatives are attached to the production of goods (in your example of CO2 emissions). Raising the taxes on the emissions will end up being paid for in the cost of goods, unless German companies don't take that into account.

Emission taxation is a cost of doing business and will be rolled into the cost of the good. Increase the cost of doing business will cause a rise in the price of that good (and whatever that good is an input to). The people will have more money as they are no longer paying the taxes, but the costs for the more heavily taxed goods will rise. In a closed system, it wouldn't matter, but this isn't a closed system.

I hope I explained that clearly.


_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to SpanishMatMaster)
Profile   Post #: 98
RE: General Ideas for a Tax System - 5/21/2013 7:43:32 AM   
SpanishMatMaster


Posts: 967
Joined: 9/28/2011
Status: offline 		Hello!
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
You have government getting revenues from two sources: income and "negatives."
Wrong, in the final stadion, income is not a criteria. Only negatives.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
All the negatives are attached to the production of goods
Wrong, I did not say that. Well, if "attached" means some abstract connection like the Greek lollipops, then I guess so, but if you mean that I only tax the production of goods, then no, I do not, actually I almost would not tax them at all.

Behaviours to be discouraged can appear in every part of the economy, including consumption patterns for example. They are not limited to the production of goods, no. At least, not more than the current taxes.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
Raising the taxes on the emissions will end up being paid for in the cost of goods, unless German companies don't take that into account.
Again... I sink the taxes to the companies in the same amount. So, no, the average cost of goods won't raise.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
Emission taxation is a cost of doing business and will be rolled into the cost of the good.
Again... and as we eliminate other taxes, this decreases the cost of doing other business and this will be rolled into the cost of good, decreasing it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
Increase the cost of doing business will cause a rise in the price of that good (and whatever that good is an input to).
And again... as I decrease the cost of doing other business, this will cause a drop in the price of other goods (and whatever goods they are an input to).

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
The people will have more money as they are no longer paying the taxes, but the costs for the more heavily taxed goods will rise
I see no reason to say that people will have less or more money as before, as they also get a mixed effect on the change of the tax system. So both the costs of the goods as the cash of the people have no reason to change in one direction more than in the other, as in both cases there will be more taxes on one side and less in the other, for both, depending on the concrete product or service.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
I hope I explained that clearly.
I think yes, and I am the one who is not explaining clearly the problem on your thinking.

You are constantly seeing only one aspect of the equation, I do not know why. Please pay attention: There is no reason to suppose that the average tax burden on companies and / or citizens will be higher or lower as before. Please prove that there is, or drop this assumption!

And really, I also do not know how can say this even more clearly.

Best regards.

< Message edited by SpanishMatMaster -- 5/21/2013 7:51:34 AM >

_____________________________

Humanist (therefore Atheist), intelligent, cultivated and very humble :)
If I don't answer you, maybe I "hid" you: PM me if you want.
“Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, pause and reflect.” (Mark Twain)

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 99
RE: General Ideas for a Tax System - 5/21/2013 8:36:02 AM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SpanishMatMaster
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
I hope I explained that clearly.
I think yes, and I am the one who is not explaining clearly the problem on your thinking.
You are constantly seeing only one aspect of the equation, I do not know why. Please pay attention: There is no reason to suppose that the average tax burden on companies and / or citizens will be higher or lower as before. Please prove that there is, or drop this assumption!
And really, I also do not know how can say this even more clearly.
Best regards.


How will the tax burden be no different on the individual? I see a reduction in tax burden on the individual.

Since the German Government is getting revenues from individuals' incomes (right?) and Corporate taxes, how is it that reducing the former won't require an increase on the latter, to maintain revenue levels?


_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to SpanishMatMaster)
Profile   Post #: 100
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