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RE: Who should vote? - 5/22/2013 3:18:25 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RacerJim


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterCaneman

Take that away and the streets will run red.


I doubt there's enough will left in the population for that, but you're right it's the most likely way to advance the timetable.

IWYW,
— Aswad.


The cons thought they could suppress millions of citizens votes in 2012 by making it more difficult to vote. Citizens simply stood in line for up to 12 hours to exercise their franchise in direct opposition to that plan. Take away the vote and there will be violence.

Precisely which "cons" did precisely what in 2012 to make it more difficult for millions of citizens to vote? Demand that those wanting to vote actually prove they are entitled to vote? Citizens who choose to wait until the last minute to register to vote and/or vote have only themselves to blame for however long they had to stand in line.

Florida does not have late registration and voters had to stand in line for up to 12 hours. The issues were the GOP cut early voting hours and polling places in minority districts state wide.

Don't you feel stupid getting caught in such blatant faslehoods every time you post?

(in reply to RacerJim)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: Who should vote? - 5/22/2013 4:12:56 PM   
Arturas


Posts: 3245
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Arturas

Should we restrict who votes to who has a stake in America, to those who own property or to those who pay taxes? Here is what the founding fathers thought...text excerpted from http://www.gilderlehrman.org/history-by-era/government-and-civics/essays/winning-vote-history-voting-rights

Didn't I previously debunk this particular lie by this particular poster?

Why yes I did.
http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=4250120





The link you refer to agrees with this found in my original post:
quote:

Pressure for expansion of voting rights came from property less men; from territories eager to attract settlers; and from political parties seeking to broaden their base.


Given this is so, and it clearly is, how did you "debunk this particular lie by this particular poster"?

And why would I care since you are obviously trolling?

_____________________________

"We master Our world."

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: Who should vote? - 5/22/2013 4:18:36 PM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		Well, that of course is horseshit,these are when the finals were out on who got to extend the voting franchise:

Most of the northern states allowed landless white men to vote even prior to Dorr's rebellion of 1842.


Landless white men: 1856
Non-whites: 1870
Women: 1920
Native Americans: 1924
Adults 18 and over: 1971



_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


(in reply to Arturas)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: Who should vote? - 5/22/2013 5:04:31 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Arturas


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Arturas

Should we restrict who votes to who has a stake in America, to those who own property or to those who pay taxes? Here is what the founding fathers thought...text excerpted from http://www.gilderlehrman.org/history-by-era/government-and-civics/essays/winning-vote-history-voting-rights

Didn't I previously debunk this particular lie by this particular poster?

Why yes I did.
http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=4250120





The link you refer to agrees with this found in my original post:
quote:

Pressure for expansion of voting rights came from property less men; from territories eager to attract settlers; and from political parties seeking to broaden their base.


Given this is so, and it clearly is, how did you "debunk this particular lie by this particular poster"?

And why would I care since you are obviously trolling?

By including a quote from a Founding Father saying the exact opposite of what you claim they believe.

Since you claimed otherwise here it is again:
quote:

Today a man owns a jackass worth fifty dollars and he is entitled to vote; but before the next election, the jackass dies. The man in the meantime has become more experienced, his knowledge of the principles of government, and his acquaintance with mankind, are more extensive, and he is therefore better qualified to make a proper selection of rulers-but the jackass is dead and the man cannot vote. Now gentlemen, pray inform me, in whom is the right of suffrage? In the man or the jackass?

By Benjamin Franklin

BTW trolling is not actually engaging in a dsicussion. I never troll. I do call out liars.

(in reply to Arturas)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: Who should vote? - 5/22/2013 5:07:24 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Well, that of course is horseshit,these are when the finals were out on who got to extend the voting franchise:

Most of the northern states allowed landless white men to vote even prior to Dorr's rebellion of 1842.


Landless white men: 1856
Non-whites: 1870
Women: 1920
Native Americans: 1924
Adults 18 and over: 1971

That 1856 date is the date that the last state allowed non land owners to vote. 3 states allowed every man who paid any tax to vote when the Constitution was ratified and states began changing over to full white male suffrage within a couple of years of the ratification. Clearly if the Founders actually opposed that there would be copious quotes by them on the matter which there are not.

(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: Who should vote? - 5/22/2013 5:39:29 PM   
dcnovice


Posts: 37282
Joined: 8/2/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Arturas


quote:

ORIGINAL: FelineRanger

Just in case Powergamz1's sarcasm didn't get through, let me put it plainly. This had potential to be an interesting question until you decided to insult people by saying

quote:

ORIGINAL: Arturas
So, what do you think, are we OK the way it is and just as soon as the WalMartians get tired of handouts and finally go back to work and start paying taxes then they will vote to reduce the free lunch Democrats are promising for their vote, or are we going to have to either go the way of California where the taxpayers are leaving and cities go bankrupt now, as if that helps, or are we going down the path to a second revolution where we must again secure the blessings of liberty from those who would "redistribute" the wealth we created by going to school, working our way through college and working a career and paying taxes and saving for rainy days?





Thank you for bringing this error in judgment to my attention. I apologize to the Walmartians .

quote:

Walmartians

Those who shop exclusively at Walmart. They are identified by their outdated style of dress and hair. Most also have unusual body types and dental configurations thereby giving the impression they are natives of another planet.

Friday is the most popular night for the Walmartians to shop.



"[Snobbishness] is the desire for what divides men
and the inability to value what unites them.”
-- Joseph Brodsky


_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to Arturas)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: Who should vote? - 5/22/2013 6:22:15 PM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RacerJim

How about if you want to live under Communism or Socialism you move to a Communist or Socialist country?

Oh no....that would make perfect sense....


ever read the russian constitution? LMAO!

here is a snippet


THE CONSTITUTION OF THE RUSSIAN FEDERATION
SECTION ONE

Chapter 2. Rights and Liberties of Man and Citizen

Article 17.

The basic rights and liberties in conformity with the commonly recognized principles and norms of the international law shall be recognized and guaranteed in the Russian Federation and under this Constitution.
The basic rights and liberties of the human being shall be inalienable and shall belong to everyone from birth.
The exercise of rights and liberties of a human being and citizen may not violate the rights and liberties of other persons.

Article 18.
The rights and liberties of man and citizen shall have direct effect. They shall determine the meaning, content and application of the laws, and the activities of the legislative and executive branches and local self-government, and shall be secured by the judiciary.

Article 19.

All people shall be equal before the law and in the court of law.
The state shall guarantee the equality of rights and liberties regardless of sex, race, nationality, language, origin, property or employment status, residence, attitude to religion, convictions, membership of public associations or any other circumstance. Any restrictions of the rights of citizens on social, racial, national, linguistic or religious grounds shall be forbidden.
Man and woman shall have equal rights and liberties and equal opportunities for their pursuit.

Article 20.

Everyone shall have the right to life.
Capital punishment may, until its abolition, be instituted by the federal law as exceptional punishment for especially grave crimes against life, with the accused having the right to have his case considered in a law court by jury.

Article 21.

The dignity of the person shall be protected by the state. No circumstance may be used as a pretext for belittling it.
No one may be subjected to torture, violence or any other harsh or humiliating treatment or punishment. No one may be subjected to medical, scientific or other experiments without his or her free consent.

Article 22.

Everyone shall have the right to freedom and personal inviolability.
Arrest, detention and keeping in custody shall be allowed only by an order of a court of law. No person may be detained for more than 48 hours without an order of a court of law.

Article 23.

Everyone shall have the right to privacy, to personal and family secrets, and to protection of one's honor and good name.
Everyone shall have the right to privacy of correspondence, telephone communications, mail, cables and other communications. Any restriction of this right shall be allowed only under an order of a court of law.

Article 24.

It shall be forbidden to gather, store, use and disseminate information on the private life of any person without his/her consent.
The bodies of state authority and the bodies of local self-government and the officials thereof shall provide to each citizen access to any documents and materials directly affecting his/her rights and liberties unless otherwise stipulated under the law.

Article 25.
The home shall be inviolable. No one shall have the right to enter the home against the will of persons residing in it except in cases stipulated by the federal law or under an order of a court of law.

Article 26.
Everyone shall have the right to determine and state his national identity. No one can be forced to determine and state his national identity. Everyone shall have the right to use his native language, freely choose the language of communication, education, training and creative work.

Article 27.

Everyone who is lawfully staying on the territory of the Russian Federation shall have the right to freedom of movement and to choose the place to stay and reside.
Everyone shall be free to leave the boundaries of the Russian Federation. The citizens of the Russian Federation shall have the right to freely return into the Russian Federation.

Article 28.
Everyone shall be guaranteed the right to freedom of conscience, to freedom of religious worship, including the right to profess, individually or jointly with others, any religion, or to profess no religion, to freely choose, possess and disseminate religious or other beliefs, and to act in conformity with them.

Article 29.

Everyone shall have the right to freedom of thought and speech.
Propaganda or campaigning inciting social, racial, national or religious hatred and strife is impermissible. The propaganda of social, racial, national, religious or language superiority is forbidden.
No one may be coerced into expressing one's views and convictions or into renouncing them.
Everyone shall have the right to seek, get, transfer, produce and disseminate information by any lawful means. The list of information constituting the state secret shall be established by the federal law.
The freedom of the mass media shall be guaranteed. Censorship shall be prohibited.

Article 30.

Everyone shall have the right to association,including the right to create trade unions in order to protect one's interests. The freedom of public associations activities shall be guaranteed.
No one may be coerced into joining any association or into membership thereof.

Article 31.
Citizens of the Russian Federation shall have the right to gather peacefully, without weapons, and to hold meetings, rallies, demonstrations, marches and pickets.

Article 32.

Citizens of the Russian Federation shall have the right to participate in the administration of the affairs of the state both directly and through their representatives.
Citizens of the Russian Federation shall have the right to elect and to be elected to bodies of state governance and to organs of local self-government, as well as take part in a referendum.
Citizens who have been found by a court of law to be under special disability, and also citizens placed in detention under a court verdict, shall not have the right to elect or to be elected.
Citizens of the Russian Federation shall have equal access to state service.
Citizens of the Russian Federation shall have the right to participate in administering justice.

Article 33.
Citizens of the Russian Federation shall have the right to turn personally to, and send individual and collective petitions to state bodies and bodies of local self-government.

Article 34.
Everyone shall have the right to freely use his or her abilities and property for entrepreneurial or any other economic activity not prohibited by the law. 2. No economic activity aimed at monopolization or unfair competition shall be allowed.

Article 35.

The right of private property shall be protected by law.
Everyone shall have the right to have property in his or her ownership, to possess, use and manage it either individually or jointly with other persons.
No one may be arbitrarily deprived of his or her property unless on the basis of decision by a court of law. Property can be forcibly alienated for state needs only on condition of a preliminary and equal compensation.
The right of inheritance shall be guaranteed.


_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to RacerJim)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: Who should vote? - 5/22/2013 6:33:27 PM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Arturas

When I put some options out there and asked for opinions I never said a restriction on voting to only those who have a stake (a financial stake) in America was in the Constitution.




thats the problem, the constitution and democracy is nothing more than a giant corporation where the worker bees have voting rights to vote for their new corporate officers! LOL

you dont get to vote on shit in this police state the legislature deemed that to be there terroritory.

in fact all these corporate officers are sworn to protect the corporation, that is the "sovereignty" or kingship if you will of the state. we have a group acting as king and it aint you and I.

in fact the states in the US were eligible to become states under feudal rules, easily provable, in fact I Have already I believe on this board for that matter.

constitutions and what they are about is quite clear to certain people:




in fact the "common" people of the state did not want the constitution but the delegates voted it in anyway.

The way I see it anyone who done know that these states were created out of feudal rules under a sovereign should not be able to vote, I guess that leaves me.







_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to Arturas)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: Who should vote? - 5/22/2013 6:34:05 PM   
fucktoyprincess


Posts: 2337
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RacerJim

How about if you want to live under Communism or Socialism you move to a Communist or Socialist country?

Oh no....that would make perfect sense....


You want to know why there is Communism in Russia - it's because the peasants got tired of starving to death and they overthrew the Tsar. When the wealthy few think they should control everything, trust me, eventually things end badly.

Trying to keep all people part of the system.

Oh no....that would make perfect sense....


[btw, to no one in general, I'm getting sick and tired of people who don't know at least some f**king history. Come on people.]

_____________________________

~ ftp

(in reply to RacerJim)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: Who should vote? - 5/22/2013 6:45:14 PM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess
The voting requirements of the Constitution reinforce a class, religion and racial system that left 94% of people outside of the system.

To roll back is to ignore all the historical development to this point (it would be like saying let's just reinstate slavery because slavery existed when the country was founded.) So what? Things have changed. Get with the program. I mean seriously.


no things have not changed.

anyone thinks slavery is gone is smoking some really good shit.

when the child is liable for the debt of the parent that is BOND SLAVERY, (the national debt) all nice and legal too!

and the children have no say in their parents signing them over to slavery of the state plantation lords either.

now here is the kicker.

after reading through everyones post here is some real fuckign history for you.





the problem is that titles were made in fee simple, which in england is a feudal contract with the kings government.

then when they came over here they made them in fee simple, that was construed to mean allodial, changed the definition of fee simple to allodial, meaning NO TAXES need be paid to anyone. Later when reconstructing the government by the creation of the constitution established the state as the sovereign (as overlord over the people) under the common law as the law of the land, where fee simple originally meaning allodial was effectively abolished. no one the wiser because they were dead before the states began the encroachment process under the new government.

In those days if people wanted something built by the community they would go tot he polls and vote it in. They were then taxed from that day forward until the bill was paid.

Now today its become big business and its the heartbreak hotel, once you check in you can never check out.

Over time the meaning if fee simple reverted back to the same meaning in "substance" and operation as it did in feudal times under the equivalent of kings common law and labelled a democracy that in reality is the legislature on its own motion.

It was nothing more than a fucking ruse to get people to come over here and colonize what in those days was mostly considered a shit hole of a country by promises never intended to keep.

The proof is above, I presume I do not need to school people on the fact that allodial titled property collects taxes not pays them.

Oh na dto make matters even really kool the state of wisconsin claims the land within thei boundaries allodial. we the people are just renters with ownership "interest" and the state has the ultimate "interest" in property in the state.

No one can lawfully take allodial property, eminent domain is non existent, and no private wo/man would ever forfeit property to the government because they simply do not have jurisdiction to even enter it without your permission.

but they own it all

Oh btw to all my pals that ridiculed me for talking about allodial land ownership in america, smoke it! there is a sharp stick in your eye!





< Message edited by Real0ne -- 5/22/2013 7:25:13 PM >

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to fucktoyprincess)
Profile   Post #: 50
RE: Who should vote? - 5/22/2013 7:29:48 PM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline 		and the really sad part about it is that I am, I expect, without exception, the only fucking one out here who knows this shit.

So where do I go vote? LMAO

Ok carry on nazis and socialists!



_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to Real0ne)
Profile   Post #: 51
RE: Who should vote? - 5/22/2013 7:35:21 PM   
littlewonder


Posts: 15659
Status: offline 		You should have to take a test and have a passing score of at least 85% to be able to vote, get married and have children.


_____________________________

Nothing has changed
Everything has changed

(in reply to Real0ne)
Profile   Post #: 52
RE: Who should vote? - 5/22/2013 11:18:03 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder

You should have to take a test and have a passing score of at least 85% to be able to vote, get married and have children.


Also declared unconstitutional.

(in reply to littlewonder)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: Who should vote? - 5/22/2013 11:21:00 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterCaneman

Starship Troopers. only veterans could vote.


Would you like to learn more?

If there is one thing that would push the overwhelming majority of Americans to revolt, it would be to remove their (admittedly ephemeral) right to vote. I don't want to bandy about with things like it doesn't matter, because you're right. It's the illusion of making a difference that keeps the unwashed masses from rising up. Take that away and the streets will run red.

And in every gun thread we are told that any revolt would be put down in 10 minutes.

(in reply to MasterCaneman)
Profile   Post #: 54
RE: Who should vote? - 5/23/2013 5:15:44 AM   
Zonie63


Posts: 2826
Joined: 4/25/2011
From: The Old Pueblo
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

and the really sad part about it is that I am, I expect, without exception, the only fucking one out here who knows this shit.

So where do I go vote? LMAO

Ok carry on nazis and socialists!



So, what exactly is "this shit" that you're the only who knows about? You seem to have a wealth of information about obscure ancient legal texts, but you seem to be implying that everything was set up centuries ago and there's absolutely nothing the people can do change their nation today.

If people today wish to advocate for change and reform in our political and economic system, someone like you comes along and says "Oh no, you can't do that. Look at this ancient text right here, indicating that we're all screwed and there's nothing we can do." That's pretty defeatist, don't you think?

(in reply to Real0ne)
Profile   Post #: 55
RE: Who should vote? - 5/23/2013 5:41:08 AM   
DaddySatyr


Posts: 9381
Joined: 8/29/2011
From: Pittston, Pennsyltucky
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL Benjamin Franklin

"When the people find they can vote themselves money, that will herald the end of the republic."



_____________________________

A Stone in My Shoe

Screen captures (and pissing on shadows) still RULE! Ya feel me?

"For that which I love, I will do horrible things"

(in reply to Zonie63)
Profile   Post #: 56
RE: Who should vote? - 5/23/2013 6:07:34 AM   
Zonie63


Posts: 2826
Joined: 4/25/2011
From: The Old Pueblo
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr

quote:

ORIGINAL Benjamin Franklin

"When the people find they can vote themselves money, that will herald the end of the republic."




That is, as it should be. The way things have been going, the voting public has spent all the money they voted for themselves, and now we're teetering on a massive debt and dwindling credit. Sooner or later, the till will run dry, and then the voters will get exactly what they deserve.

FTP mentioned the peasants in Russia overthrowing the Tsar, but in a democratic society like ours, the collective power of the people, in effect, becomes the "Tsar" in America. In pre-revolutionary Russia, the Tsar was an effete, vacillating fool, wrapped up in the lap of luxury, and completely out of touch with was going on around him. (Even up to the very end, the Tsar and Tsarina still had no clue as to what, if anything, they did wrong to lead them to such a sorry fate.)

It's kind of the same thing here in America, with the voting public becoming just as out of touch with reality as the Tsar was.


(in reply to DaddySatyr)
Profile   Post #: 57
RE: Who should vote? - 5/23/2013 7:30:40 AM   
leonine


Posts: 409
Joined: 11/3/2009
From: [email protected]
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RacerJim


quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

Ummmmm ....... anyone 18 years of age who`s a US citizen.



How about we stop "redistributing " our tax dollars to millionaires and make them pay the same rate as you and me?



Oh no....that would make perfect sense....







How about if you want to live under Communism or Socialism you move to a Communist or Socialist country?

Oh no....that would make perfect sense....

In case you missed it, this is 2013, not 1953. "Why don't ya go live in Russia, ya Commie?" doesn't have the same crushing impact.

By your low standards, most of us in Europe live in socialist countries, and like it that way.

_____________________________

Leo9


Gonna pack in my hand, pick up on a piece of land and build myself a cabin in the woods.
It's there I'm gonna stay, until there comes a day when this old world starts a-changing for the good.
- James Taylor

(in reply to RacerJim)
Profile   Post #: 58
RE: Who should vote? - 5/23/2013 7:37:32 AM   
leonine


Posts: 409
Joined: 11/3/2009
From: [email protected]
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

Consider copying the Canadian political system, and banning contributions from corporations and interest groups.

Or the system of most European democracies, that place tight limits on everyone's campaign spending. Of course the rich keep figuring out ways round it, but it's better than simply letting the biggest spender win.

_____________________________

Leo9


Gonna pack in my hand, pick up on a piece of land and build myself a cabin in the woods.
It's there I'm gonna stay, until there comes a day when this old world starts a-changing for the good.
- James Taylor

(in reply to Aswad)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: Who should vote? - 5/23/2013 2:03:57 PM   
papassion


Posts: 487
Joined: 3/28/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML


quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Yeah, the founding fathers did that cuz they didn't want slaves voting themselves out of a job, that of course (property to vote franchise, and slavery) have been abolished in amendments. 

The shit is long over.   Go back to repealing obamacare for the 37th time.  Teabagger constitutional and political thoughts are inept and irrelevant.

As if owning property equates with intelligence or knowledge. The most ignorant slavers in the new nation owned property.


I'm sort of thinking that somebody who owns a lot of valuable property has a bit more intelligence that allows the knowledge to acquire those properties!

I don't think there are too many dumb asses in the Forbes 500.

(in reply to vincentML)
Profile   Post #: 60
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