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RE: BDSM Commune/Cult - 6/26/2006 8:20:47 AM   
MaleModel


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I think the posts and/or the profile of Goddess Diana Vesta mentions her goal of setting up a femdom commune.......some of which is already in place, as I remember.

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RE: BDSM Commune/Cult - 6/26/2006 8:37:44 AM   
MaleModel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Proprietrix


My reply here is probably more questions expanding on the OP rather than a reply with any answers.
From a Sociological perspective, the idea of a BDSM cult absolutely fascinates me, and a BDSM commune has an enticing appeal.
I would think it would be difficult to put one together. Besides coordinating the mundane vanilla aspects of outside family and jobs, all sorts of difficulties occur to me, such as members with offspring, how the hierarchy would work between all members (both Dominant and submissive), and how challenging it would be to find not just one, but several other kink-minded people who had a belief system compatible enough to make it happen. Of those challenges, I think income/employment would be the easiest to overcome. There are many people in the lifestyle who are talented at craftsmanship, and with combined efforts, the commune/cult could possibly even support itself off selling lifestyle wares.

But who would hold the key position in this situation? The person who originated the idea and put it out there for others? The property owner? Would it necessarily need to be a Dominant in the highest position of power? If so, would "all" the members be subservient to that person, like in a Goddess worship situation? In most cults, there is a prime central figure that all default to, but realistically, how big could a BDSM commune become if other Dominants were expected to defer to the leading Dominant? How easily could it operate?
Would new members be trained? By whom? To what specifications? Would an incoming submissive be trained to the uber-Dominant leader’s specifications, or just to the rules in general of the community?
Where does it cross the line from commune into cult? Or does it even matter if it crosses that line?
What would be the likelihood of the government becoming involved?
Does religion play a role? Spirituality without religion? A belief system without spirituality or religion? I could see the benefits on a financial and liberty level of establishing it as a religion.
There would have to be a commonality of beliefs and shared definitions among the members.
How likely is it that an entire community could be set up around one person’s dreams and ethics and beliefs? How long would it last?
How would conflict be handled?
How technical would it need to become regarding codified rules and protocol and the distribution of wealth and ownership (of both property and slaves)?
How separate from vanilla society would it be?

It’s an interesting concept to think about.



Proprietrix, you have brought up a whole host of interesting questions.  I have begun writing a story about such a commune, and had not thought about most of these issues.  Of course, in a fictional version, one doesn't have to resolve questions of the governance of the commune, LOL

It is clear that if such an entity existed in r/l, it would have to be codified quite extensively.   Otherwise, a Dominant might move in, have some kind of conflict, and then have to move out again.  In our litigious society, that person could sue the commune (assumed to be a separate legal entity) and/or its leaders.  Also, codification would be required if subs had to give up their pay to the institution.

One could imagine a confederation in which the founding Dominant exercised loose control over groups of other Dominants, but with a clear understanding about the use of communal property (including sex slaves) and the finances.  Perhaps a re-reading of the Federalist Papers would be in order before setting out on this venture. lol

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RE: BDSM Commune/Cult - 6/26/2006 8:43:37 AM   
LuckyAlbatross


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MaleModel
One could imagine a confederation in which the founding Dominant exercised loose control over groups of other Dominants, but with a clear understanding about the use of communal property (including sex slaves) and the finances.  Perhaps a re-reading of the Federalist Papers would be in order before setting out on this venture. lol

And who is to say that the founding or governing members need to be dominants?  Slaves, switches and anyone else could fit the bill just fine. 

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RE: BDSM Commune/Cult - 6/26/2006 8:47:12 AM   
MaleModel


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LA, it just seemed implausible to me that a slave would finish up his or her duties, put salve into his/her wounds, and then convene the Dominants to resolve conflicts among them, and make binding decisions.......before spending the night servicing one or more of them.

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RE: BDSM Commune/Cult - 6/26/2006 8:51:26 AM   
LuckyAlbatross


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MaleModel
LA, it just seemed implausible to me that a slave would finish up his or her duties, put salve into his/her wounds, and then convene the Dominants to resolve conflicts among them, and make binding decisions.......before spending the night servicing one or more of them.

It's just as implausible as it is for the dominants.  They aren't sitting around being lazy after all- communes take tons of work from ALL involved.

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RE: BDSM Commune/Cult - 6/26/2006 9:04:47 AM   
zenofeller


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slaves governing masters, now that's a comune destined for greatness. i imagine it can already be found, in the woods where lambs chase wolves.

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RE: BDSM Commune/Cult - 6/26/2006 9:07:58 AM   
TolerableCruelty


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It happens everyday in a little online commune known as yahoo chat....*coughs*

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RE: BDSM Commune/Cult - 6/26/2006 9:11:09 AM   
JohnWarren


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quote:

ORIGINAL: zenofeller

slaves governing masters, now that's a comune destined for greatness. i imagine it can already be found, in the woods where lambs chase wolves.


In many of the BDSM organizations that I've visited or been a member of  much of the organization/governance has been in the hands of submissives.  You see, in the real world, submitting to one person doesn't impact a person's relationships with others.

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RE: BDSM Commune/Cult - 6/26/2006 9:13:08 AM   
MrDiscipline44


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At some level, I can agree with zeno and M&M, submissives and slaves should not be put in positions of authority over dominants in a person/living situation. I know, I know. There probably are such things going on somewhere. But just because it happening, doesn't equate it to being right. In the end it comes down to being a personal choice, I guess.

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RE: BDSM Commune/Cult - 6/26/2006 9:39:45 AM   
LuckyAlbatross


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrDiscipline44
At some level, I can agree with zeno and M&M, submissives and slaves should not be put in positions of authority over dominants in a person/living situation. I know, I know. There probably are such things going on somewhere. But just because it happening, doesn't equate it to being right. In the end it comes down to being a personal choice, I guess.

Well again, I'm not sure why people seem to think that a person can't be a great leader/arbiter/judge in a public setting just because they are a slave in their personal relationship.

However, I certainly respect people's right to choose that as their social living conditions.  Obviously anyone who wanted a commune in which no switches were allowed and slaves were not considered proper to be in social positions of leadership would be right to make such a commune exist.

And those who wanted a commune in which truly all bdsm orientations were welcome and co-habitating, leadership positions would be based upon ability and experience, not a personal relationship orientation.

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RE: BDSM Commune/Cult - 6/26/2006 10:22:58 AM   
MaleModel


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LA, we're hypothesizing that a lawyer, judge, etc. is submissive in his/her personal life.  That person makes a decision that a Dominant must take a certain action......and the decision would have to be enforced.
 
Wouldn't that be humiliating/unacceptable to most people who feel themselves to be Dominant?  Being told what to do by a slave?  Having the slave or his agents ENFORCE his decision, which brings a loss of something of value to the Dominant (or else it would never have reached adjudication).
 
I can see where subs can be managers, administrators, etc., of a commune, but not decision-makers or enforcers (unless on behalf of a Dominant)

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RE: BDSM Commune/Cult - 6/26/2006 10:25:21 AM   
Proprietrix


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As I’ve commented in the past, I believe that the feisty subs (sams, brats, pick your term) are of great benefit when it comes to coordinating, setting up events, gatekeeping to welcome newcomers, providing a shoulder to lean on, etc. etc.
I can see these subs/slaves as a great asset to a governing board in a commune or cult.
Would I feel comfortable if all of the governing positions were held by slaves? Absolutely not.
I think a governing board should be comprised of people who believe in a common goal and share a common philosophy of reaching that goal. However, I think that diversity in panel is a good thing. A group of roosters deciding what’s best for the hens really can use feedback from the hens. Kings and Queens can use feedback from the masses. Clergy can use feedback from the congregation. It makes perfect sense to me, for a governing board to be comprised of individuals who can represent the diverse groups being governed.
Again though, this entire train of thought rests on the assumption that the commune/cult would indeed have a governing board and not conform to the structure of a single person being the focal point. As I stated before, most notorious cults have had a singular leader. Koresh, Manson, Jones, etc.. one man stood as the figure-head and had followers. I could not feel comfortable in that environment. (As a follower or as the central figure.)


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IMO, IMHO, YMMV, AFAIK, to me, I see it as, from my perspective, it's been my experience, I only speak for myself, (and all other disclaimers here).

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RE: BDSM Commune/Cult - 6/26/2006 10:33:10 AM   
zenofeller


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now lucky, i never meant slaves would be apriori unfit for government just on the strenght of that sexual preference.

however, there are two problems.

firstly, the dominants might pull a stink whenever their slave tells them what to do. it's an eternal temptation, who is he to tell me i can't wear blue ? and it ends up being an expensive thing that the community constantly has to deal with.

secondly, to add to the first problem, the poor slave is completely open. "if you don't rescind your ban on wearing blue, i;m going to whip you bloody". or make you handle snakes, something the slave is terrified by. or whatever.

in a sense it's bad politics to have people so vulnerable govern people so... difficult.

(in reply to Proprietrix)
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RE: BDSM Commune/Cult - 6/26/2006 10:33:28 AM   
LuckyAlbatross


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MaleModel
Wouldn't that be humiliating/unacceptable to most people who feel themselves to be Dominant?  Being told what to do by a slave?  Having the slave or his agents ENFORCE his decision, which brings a loss of something of value to the Dominant (or else it would never have reached adjudication).

We're talking about government.  Dominants are already governed by vanillas and subs and slaves- the difference here is that they would have to be aware of it because they live in such a small and closed society.

If a dominant is humiliated by someone they are not in a personal relationship with, I have to wonder what they consider their dominance to be.  For me, dominance has no bearing on anything but their own personal relationship.  When it comes to social standing, they have no more or less place than any slave switch or vanilla.  If they find that a hard pill to swallow, that really is their own problem.

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RE: BDSM Commune/Cult - 6/26/2006 10:38:48 AM   
zenofeller


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yes, but then why bother make a dedicated commune if it's going to be the same shit all over again ? just organise a camping outing or something.

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RE: BDSM Commune/Cult - 6/26/2006 10:39:41 AM   
stef


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MaleModel

Wouldn't that be humiliating/unacceptable to most people who feel themselves to be Dominant? 

Being dominant does not mean they are necessarily better at things than a submissive person.  If it was a submissive person who was better at logistics, finance, organization, etc., wouldn't you want them in charge of those things?  Wouldn't it be counter to the best interests of the group to have someone less skilled in those positions just to assuage some dominant egos?
 
quote:

I can see where subs can be managers, administrators, etc., of a commune, but not decision-makers or enforcers (unless on behalf of a Dominant)

Just because a person might be submissive to one, doesn't mean they are submissive to everyone.  Whatever personal relationship a submissive person has with their counterpart has absolutely no bearing on their relationship with the rest of their community (unless it's a gorean or similar community but that's not what we're talking about here).  If a dominant feels humiliated by taking orders, direction, whatever from someone else's submissive, they probably won't last long in such a community if they were even invited to particilate in one to begin with and may want to consider just how dominant they truly are.
 
~stef

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RE: BDSM Commune/Cult - 6/26/2006 10:41:55 AM   
Proprietrix


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross
If a dominant is humiliated by someone they are not in a personal relationship with, I have to wonder what they consider their dominance to be.  For me, dominance has no bearing on anything but their own personal relationship.  When it comes to social standing, they have no more or less place than any slave switch or vanilla.  If they find that a hard pill to swallow, that really is their own problem.


I do understand what you're saying LA. (In fact, I just said in my last post that subs/slaves should have points of position in governing boards.)
But..
In the case of a BDSM commune, I wonder if there would indeed be exclusive personal relationships. I think the general trend among those interested in BDSM communes is that *all parties* are kind of having a personal relationship with *all other parties*. It's kind of an enlarged poly atmosphere to the point that personal relationships and points of social standing actually overlap in every day life.

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IMO, IMHO, YMMV, AFAIK, to me, I see it as, from my perspective, it's been my experience, I only speak for myself, (and all other disclaimers here).

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RE: BDSM Commune/Cult - 6/26/2006 10:46:51 AM   
ExistentialSteel


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The whole thread is starting to remind me of Lord of the Flies.

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RE: BDSM Commune/Cult - 6/26/2006 10:50:55 AM   
LuckyAlbatross


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Proprietrix
In the case of a BDSM commune, I wonder if there would indeed be exclusive personal relationships. I think the general trend among those interested in BDSM communes is that *all parties* are kind of having a personal relationship with *all other parties*. It's kind of an enlarged poly atmosphere to the point that personal relationships and points of social standing actually overlap in every day life.

At which point really, UNLESS you forbade people to switch in any form and did not allow any switches into the commune at all, then ones relationship orientation loses all relevance whatsoever in terms of social interaction.  It becomes about working for the whole (as you said before), and thus ones personal relationship orientation becomes moot.

Seriously, look at how few doms can manage to make a relationship with two submissives work in the long term.  The pool of dominants who would able to even try and make a go at this is really small (although I'm sure many enjoy the idea).

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Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

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RE: BDSM Commune/Cult - 6/26/2006 11:20:21 AM   
JohnWarren


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

quote:

ORIGINAL: Proprietrix
In the case of a BDSM commune, I wonder if there would indeed be exclusive personal relationships. I think the general trend among those interested in BDSM communes is that *all parties* are kind of having a personal relationship with *all other parties*. It's kind of an enlarged poly atmosphere to the point that personal relationships and points of social standing actually overlap in every day life.

At which point really, UNLESS you forbade people to switch in any form and did not allow any switches into the commune at all, then ones relationship orientation loses all relevance whatsoever in terms of social interaction.  It becomes about working for the whole (as you said before), and thus ones personal relationship orientation becomes moot.

Seriously, look at how few doms can manage to make a relationship with two submissives work in the long term.  The pool of dominants who would able to even try and make a go at this is really small (although I'm sure many enjoy the idea).


Several years ago, Libby and I organized a "Beauty's Weekend" at our Cape Cod house.  The basis behind it would be that the dominants would be in control of all the submissives.  To create the illusion that it was like the books, we wanted to minimize the possibility of safeword use so we carefully worked with all of the submissives to find out what they would and would not do for and with each of the dominant.  This took weeks and created quite a document but the weekend went well with an "anything goes" atmosphere because the dominants all knew their limits.  (At one point, most of the dominants went out to a movie leaving a dominant-heavy switch in charge so the "slave could revolt.")

Even though the weekend went well, it made it clear just how difficult it would be to run a long term group of disparate individuals in a pure scene environment.  I suspect a successful commune would have to incorporate extensive vanilla aspects in its running and so submissives might well have extensive executive powers within those aspects.



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