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RE: A National Service Obligation? - 5/31/2013 4:40:25 PM

DomKen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

will this mean amending the constitution?

Unless folks don't mind the 13th being violated, yes, it would have to mean a change to the Constitution. You can't have this idea of involuntary service being made into some sort of law and retain the 13th in its wholeness. They are diametrically opposed.

The draft didn't violate the 13th. This would simply be a universal draft of young people. Totally legal.

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RE: A National Service Obligation? - 5/31/2013 4:42:40 PM

DomKen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

Of course there would be no need to amend the constitution any more than there ever was for the draft.

It didn't need amending for the draft as it already had Article 1, section 8. Apples and oranges.

how do you think that section authorizes a draft but not other forms of universal service?

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RE: A National Service Obligation? - 5/31/2013 5:04:22 PM

Lucylastic

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I think if anyone thinks its a good idea, they should be the first to experience such... national military service or ..... otherwise.
then see how much of a good idea it is afterwards.
Lets see how they like THEIR liberties being fucked with, and yes, that includes anyone who wasnt "drafted" for previous wars. Choice is one thing...

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RE: A National Service Obligation? - 5/31/2013 5:11:50 PM

kdsub

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Instead of making service mandatory why not make service and economic advantage. Otherwise service could mean access to lower interest government loans… Preferential governmental employment… Preferential educational aid…Lower healthcare costs…Preferential treatment for any governmental service. Many of these benefits are already offered to service men but expand them to alternative services.

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RE: A National Service Obligation? - 5/31/2013 5:39:54 PM

TheHeretic

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

will this mean amending the constitution?

I'm not sure where you are seeing a such a requirement, Lucy. Perhaps you could provide an analysis of the consitutional conflicts you see, contrasted with the present selective service mandate for American youth?

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RE: A National Service Obligation? - 5/31/2013 5:45:03 PM

TheHeretic

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quote:

ORIGINAL: RottenJohnny
Whether we approve of it or not, you should have the right to be a completely selfish, disconnected, ignorant, and/or useless individual if you want to be one.

And there is the root of why I think this is exactly what the country needs. We are a nation full of self-centered twits, who think citizenship is nothing but a big goodie bag of rights, with no responsibilities attached to any of it.

I'm going to get into a description of how I see such a system being applied, and that may well alleviate some of the concerns I'm seeing expressed in the many excellent replies. I'm also going to have a couple cold ones along the way, so be patient, please.

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RE: A National Service Obligation? - 5/31/2013 5:47:02 PM

TheHeretic

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63

I couldn't read the article. It said that it's only available to subscribers.

I've run into that before. I think the WSJ only gives you so many for free in a month. Maybe give it a click from another device, or try it again tomorrow, when the calendar rolls over.

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RE: A National Service Obligation? - 5/31/2013 5:49:58 PM

Aswad

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

I think if anyone thinks its a good idea, they should be the first to experience such... national military service or ..... otherwise. then see how much of a good idea it is afterwards. Lets see how they like THEIR liberties being fucked with, and yes, that includes anyone who wasnt "drafted" for previous wars. Choice is one thing...

Seconded.

I risked up to 28 years in prison when I refused the compulsory military service here.

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RE: A National Service Obligation? - 5/31/2013 5:53:01 PM

TheHeretic

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quote:

ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy

Who is to say a government will not one day make one earn their citizenship?

Who is to say that government will not one day require everyone to purchase something?

I think there is a disconnect, FDD. You seem to be seeing the proposal a requirement for citizenship, rather than as an obligation of citizenship. Two very different things.

Now, on an aside, I do think a national service requirement would be an excellent tool in the box, as we deal with the immigration mess, and seek a remedy to normalize the millions of people who violated US law in how they came to this country, and hope to remain in it with a legal status.

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RE: A National Service Obligation? - 5/31/2013 5:58:54 PM

BamaD

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

Of course there would be no need to amend the constitution any more than there ever was for the draft.

It didn't need amending for the draft as it already had Article 1, section 8. Apples and oranges.

So if they performed the same duties but were technically in the military it would be ok?

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RE: A National Service Obligation? - 5/31/2013 6:04:45 PM

BamaD

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Who is to say a government will not one day make one earn their citizenship?
Interesting thought in light of the fact that at the present many consider it discrimination to deny illegals the full benefits of citizenship.

Is it not more in fitting with the trend that someday there will be no standards for citizenship?

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RE: A National Service Obligation? - 5/31/2013 6:06:02 PM

TheHeretic

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

I risked up to 28 years in prison when I refused the compulsory military service here.

I don't think there would be any need to place criminal liabilities on failure to comply with the service requirement, Aswad. Civil and social sanctions ought to be sufficient. Once someone has passed the top end of the expected age range, without either a waiver or participation in one of the many options, they'll just find that they cannot renew their driver's license, that their student loans or government backed mortgages will suddenly require payment in full, that they are not eligible for any sort of government benefits or assistance, maybe that their employer is facing a tax penalty for employing them... There are lots of possibilities.

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RE: A National Service Obligation? - 5/31/2013 6:09:12 PM

BamaD

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Who is to say that government will not one day require everyone to purchase something?

They do, health insurance.

< Message edited by BamaD -- 5/31/2013 6:11:04 PM >

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RE: A National Service Obligation? - 5/31/2013 6:11:00 PM

TheHeretic

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic
When I take a class in the american constitution , and you are my professor,

You'd have to get through my basic civics course first, Lucy, and that one is tough enough.

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RE: A National Service Obligation? - 5/31/2013 6:16:55 PM

Lucylastic

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LOL... enjoy your beer you irascible old sod

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RE: A National Service Obligation? - 5/31/2013 6:21:05 PM

Aswad

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

There are lots of possibilities.

Now you're talking. This for that, I can get behind. This or else, not so much.

I had a discussion about a tiered opt-in model of society off the boards just yesterday, a bit more involved than what you're mentioning here, and I think it's got a lot of potential to do something along those lines in the US (e.g. making some sort of migration path from the current model to the tiered opt-in model where people are effectively incentivized to participate fully in society by making new benefits- and the dropping of old obligations- contingent on attendant new obligations).

It's the "you'll do this, or we'll try to force you, and if we can't force you, we'll punish you" thing I have a problem with.

As I said, I was eager to volunteer, just morally prohibited from doing so.

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RE: A National Service Obligation? - 5/31/2013 6:34:07 PM

TheHeretic

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble

Unless folks don't mind the 13th being violated, yes, it would have to mean a change to the Constitution. You can't have this idea of involuntary service being made into some sort of law and retain the 13th in its wholeness. They are diametrically opposed.

One more quick reply, then I'm going to drink a bit, and type slow on a sketch of how we might make such a thing work.

The 13th is no problem. A national service obligation is outside the scope of what is intended by that amendment, and it will only require a judge laughing it out of court, just as has been done with those who have tried to use the 13th to avoid the military draft, or the even more ridiculous douchebags who have insisted the 13th means they can't be called for jury duty. The 13th amended the Constitution. It is not trumped by Article 1, section 8, it is not relevant to it, nor would the intent be relevant to this.

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RE: A National Service Obligation? - 5/31/2013 8:41:29 PM

DaddySatyr

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I kind of spoke about offering incentives, early on. I would want to be careful about which "rewards" would dry up, though.

Rich, I think you mentioned the inability to register a car? Well ... no ... kind of a violation of the right of travel.

I would agree with: No ability for you or your children to get college loans. How's that for incentive; not only would you be screwing yourself out of a higher education but, your kids would be screwed, too unless you did VERY well in life. That hits you two ways and it puts the onus on you; not only for yourself but for the well-being of your children.

How about an idea I've floated, before; you get your college paid for and then you do X years of government service?

Peace and comfort,

Michael

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RE: A National Service Obligation? - 5/31/2013 8:47:49 PM

LafayetteLady

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I couldn't read the article either, but your excerpt gave me a general idea.

Personally I think it is an excellent idea, and in some instances should be ongoing. I see people's points about it being compulsory, however, as a start, it could be voluntary, but high school and college students could earn credit for it. That's incentive for them. They get credit, but then they also need to write some papers regarding the experience and what it teaches them (at the high school level).

There are so many things that could be participated in, even on a part time basis. So if it is turned into hours as opposed to years, the completion could be over several, part time all the way, or a combination of both.

Just about any field that a high school student wants to enter has some type of organization where they could do some charitable work. And I don't mean just the shit jobs either. If you want to study Equestrian Studies, you could do your service with one of the groups that uses horses for therapy. You are in the field you want to go, you will definitely learn something, and you serve a purpose.

That can be with anything, easily. You want to be in the medical field, volunteer with your local rescue squad. Legal? Plenty of legal aid groups that could use some help, and you would learn it isn't as glamorous as television. Police? They have plenty of youth groups.

Giving these young people credit would be the reason they started. We can hope that at the end, though, they would have gotten something much more valuable.

Oh and the ongoing stuff? My personal favorite is that in order to serve as a politician, you must first spend a period of time living on welfare. Think of that guy's "30 days" experiment, but expanded a bit. Take away the Cadillac health care package, the perks, the credit cards, etc. and make them live on Medicaid, food stamps and cash assistance for a bit and they will definitely figure something out. A month is too short, but I'm thinking 3-6 months (leaning towards the 6) would be a good starting point. They would lose no assets, but those assets would be locked from their use for the service period. Who wants to bet they will be able to figure out a National Health Care system that makes sense after that?

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RE: A National Service Obligation? - 5/31/2013 9:43:45 PM

SadistDave

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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

quote:

Kinda like that slavery thing?

No. Kinda like something completely different.

quote:

I served with officers who went to harvard...What fucking common ground did I have with them?

Many Harvard grads are pretty douchey. I'm sure you have lots in common. Maybe you could all get together for a good cry over the failure of the Communist Party...

quote:

No the social class is preserved...clearly you have never been in the military.

I don't know what sort of bullshit job you had in the military. I was Armored Cavalry, which is much like being a Marine, in the sense that I am always welcome among others who served in the Cav. When you do a real job worth being proud of, it isn't hard to connect with other people who have done that job.

quote:

We can clearly see how well this has worked in the past by checking the unemployment rate of vetrans returning the job market.
Oh waite when we do that we see that this model does not work as imagined. One would have thought that someone would have thought to check this before.

Really? Are you even paying attention to the subject matter? The idea isn't to have everyone serve in the military, but to find a way to serve the nation in a variety of ways. So, we could just as easily discuss other demographics besides veterans.

Take the abyssmal black teen unemployment rate for example. It is hovering somewhere around 20-25%. Certainly those kids would benefit from having ANY kind of work record, even if were a mandatory service. It would establish them with verifiablel work experience, increase the chances that they will eventually get a job, if it's in an appropriate field they may even be able to use the experience for college credits. Regardless, that is a huge part of the workforce that has zero work experience, and it isn't getting any better by doing nothing about the problem. It certainly won't improve under Obama.

quote:

Cheap labor pool benifits whom?

As it relates to this topic... everyone. Kids get work experience, and employers get kids with work experience. Having people from different demographics working together helps level the field when it comes to career opportunities. Who knows, it might accidentally get ghetto kids to learn how to wear a pair of pants properly, and white kids might learn how to dance without looking like they're in pain. People who have never experienced it might accidentally find a little pride in having accomplished something, or learn that the world is not as horrible, or as wonderful as their limited experience has taught them it is.

I know you have trouble with the written word, so let me repeat something that you apparently failed to catch onto the first time around. I think it's a nice idea, but it's not even remotely realistic. As someone else pointed out, it probably isn't Constitutional. Do try to keep up.

-SD-

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