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RE: Could an aetheist do this? - 6/1/2013 3:43:25 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		I really respect your opinion but you have made the same mistake as others. I am not talking about the so called real world... I am only talking about these boards. I challenge you to take the time to go back even a few months in this room and read the posts on religion.

As I stated earlier I am not talking about the real issues on religion. I, as a person of faith, agree with most of the criticisms. What many don't seem to realize is religion is important to those of faith....second only to family and to many even that cannot be separated. So when in an argument someone calls their faith a fairy tale in a derogatory manner it is hurtful.

Here are a few examples in this thread alone:

about this very very specific way to be an asshole... I'd almost say that it takes a religious person to do this


I suggest returning your Ouija board, it's not actually working



I could go on to other threads and find many more examples. What do the statements above have to do with the real issues of the church. They are just meant to be disrespectful.

Now I am not saying there are no examples on these boards of hurtful and hateful posts toward atheists but I am saying the hate, or if not hate then contempt, towards those of faith is much more prevalent.

I keep saying I'm not going to comment any further and yet because I respect your posts I felt I had to make sure you understood where I was coming from.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 6/1/2013 3:48:02 PM >

_____________________________

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RE: Could an aetheist do this? - 6/1/2013 3:52:05 PM   
njlauren


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Then you have not been reading these message boards. Atheists are constantly attacking beliefs with science...and there is nothing wrong with that... But all you must do to the evangelists is say no thank... you can close the door or walk away. If you do how often do you here them hurling insults at you? Here on the boards those of faith are told we are ignorant...availing ourselves of fairy tales and Ouija boards...the cause of all evil in the world...on and on all because we defend our beliefs or dare to question the so called facts of science.

There is no doubt there are problems with religion...and its view towards atheists and vice versa but I believe HERE on these boards there is more disrespect towards people of religion then toward atheists.

And I only point this out because on another thread a point was being made that it is the other way around.

I could just be my perception is biased because of my faith so I'll shut up about it and let the comments prove me right or wrong.

Butch

I think a lot of it has to do with the nature of this board, you aren't going to get a lot of people of faith on a board like this, because to be honest, even mainstream religious faiths treat sex as something inherently evil unless you are popping out babies, I belonged to a very liberal church and during gay pride month, they had posters up about gay culture, various aspects of it, and so forth, and the only complaints were because they had a section on one poster explaining about the leather community..it was not graphic, showed the leather pride flag and talked a little bit about what it meant in a pretty g rated way..and people were incensed, the feminist dyke types called it patriarchal abuse (even though, mind you, we were talking about gay culture), others called it promoting perversion, it was sad.

To be honest, I think those outwardly derided religion have only seen the image portrayed out in society, and for the past 30 or 40 years, mostly thanks to the GOP, it has been the mindless, hater, evangelical/fundamentalist kind, the battles over teaching evolution, evangelicals wholeheartedly supporting the climate change debate on the negative side (I am talking as a religious belief, not arguing the science, but as a duty to God to do it, which is fucking weird, and purely political), or the non stop argument that their belief should reflect how gays are treated by society,and so forth....and in general society, people like Dawkins and Hitchens are overwhelmed by the wall of "Belief" that is thrown around, and usually in a negative way, if it isn't the evangelicals, it is the RC church leaders......I think they are reacting because that is the image that has come to mean Christian, which is sad, because the evangelicals I am talking about represent the worst, not the best., as the Bishops represent the worst of the church, not the best.

In a sense, I blame people of faith for this, because they let it happen, and liberal churches are as much to blame as anyone. They let the religious right and the Catholic Bishops become Christianity and its face; how many people of faith, of the type we are talking about, protested the GOP's rightward social agenda by refusing to vote for GOP candidates and letting them know why? Churches will put up protests about the war, about abortion, how about protesting the GOP becoming the 'party of CHristianity' without really becoming that (like, while doing that, cutting programs for the poor and powerless to give the rich tax breaks? Not WWJD, for sure). Unfortunately, the image of believers has become that of a bunch of uneducated yahoos, like the clown running for senate claiming that a woman who had been raped couldn't get pregnant (with the idea that if a woman got pregnant while claiming to be raped, it wasn't raped, she 'wanted it'...*gag*) and no one wants to challenge them on it. Some do, of course, Jack Spong probably put as good a case against fundamentalism as I can ever want to see, but his type is few and far between.


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RE: Could an aetheist do this? - 6/1/2013 4:03:07 PM   
njlauren


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

Maybe because the religious tend not to be on a board like this, cause their bible tells them sex is only to make lots of babies......

Stereotype much?


I am not anti religion, rather I was serious, that religion when it comes to sex is still way, way, way behind the times, the fact that we have a major church that claims birth control is immoral, or that the sex act other than in the vagina in the missionary position is sinful because it isn't open to life, and you get the drift. While a lot better then it had been, most Christian churches in this country would be uncomfortable with having openly gay couples attend there as a couple, and I suspect if you talked to fellow church goers even in a liberal church, about your proclivities in BD/SM, I don't think you would get a very positive reaction, which was my point. Put it this way, in the BD/SM community, the number of people who are active in faith communities is pretty small, which was my point; given the nature of BD/SM and what religion teachers, you don't see a lot of people of faith on boards or in real life....a couple of studies were done of that, surveying people id'ing as being part of the BD/SM community, and a very small percentage said they were active in faith communities....though perhaps because of its nature, you do see a lot more neo pagan people, perhaps because those faiths are so less dogmatic and negative about sex, but that is a guess.

Sorry, but as a whole the traditional faiths are not exactly sex positive, especially where it moves away from conventional sex. We are just beginning to deal with homosexuality, think if they can't accept a loving couple who happen to be of the same sex, they are going to be thrilled by people who like to be tied up, whipped and so forth?

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RE: Could an aetheist do this? - 6/1/2013 4:08:10 PM   
TNDommeK


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Status: offline 		Wow. I'm a Christian, and I would have found that rude as hell. And there definitely would have been a lawsuit. See, those are the types of people I try to separate myself from when calling myself a Christian. People can choose what they want, forcing things only makes that group seem insecure.

But as stated earlier, I've seen the same thing from atheists. I've actually seen it from every side.

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RE: Could an aetheist do this? - 6/1/2013 4:09:10 PM   
kdsub


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quote:

In a sense, I blame people of faith for this, because they let it happen, and liberal churches are as much to blame as anyone. They let the religious right and the Catholic Bishops become Christianity and its face; how many people of faith, of the type we are talking about, protested the GOP's rightward social agenda by refusing to vote for GOP candidates and letting them know why?


njlauren...this is the proper type of debate...exchange of ideas not meant to insult anyone but important to discuss. I do agree with you here but to a lesser extent. Remember the majority of Americans are religious...yet many voted against the GOP and the make up of all but the House proves it. And many of the votes on the GOP side were NOT based on religion but economics...so all and all I do not believe people of faith are blindly led by the GOP and conservative church leaders.

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

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RE: Could an aetheist do this? - 6/1/2013 4:10:00 PM   
DomKen


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From: Chicago, IL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: njlauren
And as far as being a minority, the evangelical Christians and orthodox Catholics, who are a minority (though not small, 25% of the US population are evangelicals, and while most Catholics are cafeteria ones, about 15 million are orthodox), have outsize power, and the problem is the rest of the religious let them get away with their bullshit, the 80% of Catholics, the majority of protestants, let the evangelicals and orthodox catholics have the bully pulpit. When all you hear are the haters, of course you are going to assume Christian=hater, to quote Burke, to allow evil to triumph, all good men have to do is nothing. And sadly, in the more mainstream Christian churches, what you get about the evangelicals is a lot of excuses, that they are stupid people (or at the very least, uneducated, which is true) or they found something that makes them feel better and you have to understand, and that is bullshit. Catholics love to whine about perceptions of Catholics, based on the Vatican and the Bishops, yet while it is patently obvious that most Catholics are not in synch with the hierarchy, that they are disgusted by the abuse scandals, that they keep quiet and don't yell and scream, or more importantly, do something really good, and refuse to pay for the Bishops and Vatican.

This!

I get so frustrated with the mass of Christians. They let Pat Robertson and his ilk spread their bile and one hears very little from religious people in opposition to that.

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RE: Could an aetheist do this? - 6/1/2013 4:11:19 PM   
njlauren


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Joined: 10/1/2011
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

I really respect your opinion but you have made the same mistake as others. I am not talking about the so called real world... I am only talking about these boards. I challenge you to take the time to go back even a few months in this room and read the posts on religion.

As I stated earlier I am not talking about the real issues on religion. I, as a person of faith, agree with most of the criticisms. What many don't seem to realize is religion is important to those of faith....second only to family and to many even that cannot be separated. So when in an argument someone calls their faith a fairy tale in a derogatory manner it is hurtful.

Here are a few examples in this thread alone:

about this very very specific way to be an asshole... I'd almost say that it takes a religious person to do this


I suggest returning your Ouija board, it's not actually working



I could go on to other threads and find many more examples. What do the statements above have to do with the real issues of the church. They are just meant to be disrespectful.

Now I am not saying there are no examples on these boards of hurtful and hateful posts toward atheists but I am saying the hate, or if not hate then contempt, towards those of faith is much more prevalent.

I keep saying I'm not going to comment any further and yet because I respect your posts I felt I had to make sure you understood where I was coming from.

Butch


I agree with you totally, and I think denigrating faith is wrong, and when I see these kinds of things I generally denigrate those who say that. I think the problem is that those who post those things are looking at the broader world and making assumptions that aren't true, they see the evangelical Christians who often are mindless idiots IMO (I am talking religious right/fundamentalists) from their behavior, and assume that is true of all, and it is wrong, and I have and do call people on it. I also will add that a lot of atheists I have met who are so rabid are people who have been hurt by religion, who have seen the dark sides, and it has made them bitter and angry. I don't condone them, it is mindless to do that, and I am of the school of thought with faith that it is okay to discuss why I don't believe something, why I think traditional teaching doesn't work.....I understand faith, what I object to personally is using it as a weapon, when it is a belief, and it should be the same way with atheism. Sadly, in some ways religion has also brought this on themselves, when Christians claim you cannot be moral without faith, or that all the ills of history are caused by atheism (they love to cite Stalin and Mao, for example, but forget about, oh, let's say Hitler, who was a self proclaimed Catholic and whose German nation was 95% Christian, who killed how many?), and a politician who said he was atheist would stand a tinkers cuss of getting elected, while some drooling idiot running agains him saying he loved Jesus would win........

I think this is a needed discussion, and I think it is important that people speak up, among other things, maybe, just maybe, some of the more vocal deriders will realize that a lot of people of faith are thoughtful people, heck kinky even, and that what they think isn't true.

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RE: Could an aetheist do this? - 6/1/2013 4:18:09 PM   
kdsub


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Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline
quote:

Pat Robertson


DomKen when I see his name mentioned in posts I have NEVER read where anyone supported him...again on these boards.... have you? Now I am not talking about abortion... gay marriage etc... those or issues that are not his alone. In my opinion he is a fanatic and represents a very small portion of those of faith.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 6/1/2013 4:19:48 PM >

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 68
RE: Could an aetheist do this? - 6/1/2013 4:22:59 PM   
njlauren


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

In a sense, I blame people of faith for this, because they let it happen, and liberal churches are as much to blame as anyone. They let the religious right and the Catholic Bishops become Christianity and its face; how many people of faith, of the type we are talking about, protested the GOP's rightward social agenda by refusing to vote for GOP candidates and letting them know why?


njlauren...this is the proper type of debate...exchange of ideas not meant to insult anyone but important to discuss. I do agree with you here but to a lesser extent. Remember the majority of Americans are religious...yet many voted against the GOP and the make up of all but the House proves it. And many of the votes on the GOP side were NOT based on religion but economics...so all and all I do not believe people of faith are blindly led by the GOP and conservative church leaders.

Butch


I agree with you on the why, but muse about this, if faith is so important to people (and I have questions about Americans being such people of faith, but that is another argument), if faith means something to them, then why for example do economics overshadow it? Why if they voted for economic reasons, and the local GOP rep supports some religious right based law, don't they stand up and holler? Of course I realize the importance of economics, but my point is, the complaint is that religion has been tarred as a bunch of knuckle dragging morons, yet they don't want to understand why.....for example, I live in an area that is heavily GOP, local government, etc, and it is fiscally conservative yet socially moderate to libertarian.......and yet they support s gop house member who has gone along with some odious social legislation, like DOMA, that is against what people believe........btw, among people who regularly go to church, the large majority voted GOP, so if we mean people of faith those who regularly go to church, it wouldn't even be a contest.

I personally think portraying America as a country that is very religious is part of the pr job that is being done. I think most people do believe in something higher than themselves, but I think that a lot of people of faith are not the true believers or even belong to church. The fastest growing group of believers is those who don't believe any one faith, and more and more people are dropping out of churches. The RC claims 50% of its members regularly go to church, for example, but sociologists have done studies where they actually look at church attendance, sampling attendance, and they find it may be much less than that.......so it can even be hard to say who a person of faith is.

Personally, I think the religious right's time is done, I think the evangelicals, who 30 years ago were going to take over the US, are finished, I think organized religion is going to keep declining and I think give it another election or two, and suddenly the GOP is going to find the religious right is a boat anchor, because young people find the evangelicals distasteful, and most young people don't id as GOP at all.....when the older generations die off, those now in their 60's and older, it is going to be a game changer. Hopefully when the strident voices die off, when the televangelists no longer have an audience, things will change.

Like I said, I don't denigrate people of faith, I denigrate those who use it as a weapon, and I think Atheists would be better served by discussing why they are atheist, rather than denigrating faith

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RE: Could an aetheist do this? - 6/1/2013 4:26:11 PM   
cordeliasub


Posts: 528
Joined: 11/4/2012
Status: offline 		Regarding Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell and other idiots....

Anytime the topic comes up, I try to make it clear I am NOT a fan. And when cases like the OP come up, I am quick to express my disgust.

Here's the thing.....

Actually 2 things:

1. Because I have the capacity for objectivity and thinking things through well, I realize that one tiny segment of a population does not represent that entire population. For example, I do not think all Muslims are terrorists just because there are some radical sects/groups that resort to terrorism. I do not think all bkier clubs are a bumch of criminals who rape women and then pass them around, even though I know there are some groups that do that. I do not think all atheists are angry and bitter and go out of their way to hate on religion, even though there are a few people who do.

So....if I, a poor, feeble minded spaghetti monster worshipper can work out that little nugget of rationality, then surely other people can figure out that not all (not even most) Christians are like this idiot in the OP. It isn't my job to do someone else's thinking for them, particularly when they have already accused me of being intellectually inferior by virtue of having faith.
2. Call me apathetic, but I have a job, children, aging parents, a chronic health issue to manage, and bills to hope I can pay every month. So pardon and forgive me if chasing after every idiot who brands himself "Christian" to make sure everyone knows I don;t approve is not in the top 5 of my priority list.

And as far as symbols go....in MY country, that crucifix would last about 30 seconds in a public school classroom, which is as it should be.

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RE: Could an aetheist do this? - 6/1/2013 4:34:16 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
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From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

Pat Robertson


DomKen when I see his name mentioned in posts I have NEVER read where anyone supported him...again on these boards.... have you? Now I am not talking about abortion... gay marriage etc... those or issues that are not his alone. In my opinion he is a fanatic and represents a very small portion of those of faith.

Butch

I'm not saying anyone here supports him. I'm saying I rarely hear a Christian denouncing him or his latest pronouncements. Also I do often hear atheists being bashed for ridiculing this gasbag.

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RE: Could an aetheist do this? - 6/1/2013 4:36:19 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		We agree on so many things and you have mentioned many in this post. I am one of the people that believe in a higher source and wonder why some people of faith think God would make homosexual people and not love them... And also wonder why people of charity and faith feel it is there duty to deny that charity through their government to those less fortunate.

I guess we are human...but I must also mention that many so called atheists are also against governmental entitlements...damn I hate that word entitlements it makes it sound like most people have a choice and are taking advantage of the government...wrong!

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 6/1/2013 4:39:15 PM >

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

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RE: Could an aetheist do this? - 6/1/2013 4:37:51 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		Let me just say this... if you can find a thread he is prominent in I'll bet I most likely posted and it sure was not in support.

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

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RE: Could an aetheist do this? - 6/1/2013 4:38:06 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: cordeliasub
And as far as symbols go....in MY country, that crucifix would last about 30 seconds in a public school classroom, which is as it should be.

Not sure what part of Alabama you're in but I'm willing to bet there are crucifixes in public school classrooms in DeKalb County.

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RE: Could an aetheist do this? - 6/1/2013 4:49:56 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

Pat Robertson


DomKen when I see his name mentioned in posts I have NEVER read where anyone supported him...again on these boards.... have you? Now I am not talking about abortion... gay marriage etc... those or issues that are not his alone. In my opinion he is a fanatic and represents a very small portion of those of faith.

Butch

I'm not saying anyone here supports him. I'm saying I rarely hear a Christian denouncing him or his latest pronouncements. Also I do often hear atheists being bashed for ridiculing this gasbag.



How about THIS my friend.

ps... I'm there check me out

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 6/1/2013 4:50:50 PM >

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

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RE: Could an aetheist do this? - 6/1/2013 4:57:24 PM   
cordeliasub


Posts: 528
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: cordeliasub
And as far as symbols go....in MY country, that crucifix would last about 30 seconds in a public school classroom, which is as it should be.

Not sure what part of Alabama you're in but I'm willing to bet there are crucifixes in public school classrooms in DeKalb County.


Heck, it;s summer, things are slow at work....I am gonna take this challenge

If I find a PUBLIC school where a crucifix is hanging, I'll buy you a steak.

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RE: Could an aetheist do this? - 6/1/2013 5:04:36 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
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From: Chicago, IL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: cordeliasub


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: cordeliasub
And as far as symbols go....in MY country, that crucifix would last about 30 seconds in a public school classroom, which is as it should be.

Not sure what part of Alabama you're in but I'm willing to bet there are crucifixes in public school classrooms in DeKalb County.


Heck, it;s summer, things are slow at work....I am gonna take this challenge

If I find a PUBLIC school where a crucifix is hanging, I'll buy you a steak.

Try Collinsville High School.

(in reply to cordeliasub)
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RE: Could an aetheist do this? - 6/1/2013 5:40:34 PM   
Powergamz1


Posts: 1927
Joined: 9/3/2011
Status: offline 		Pointing out the problems with Robertson, the Crusades, bad priests, faith healers, snake handlers, or live human sacrifices isn't an attack on religion, it is an attack on those problems.

Pointing out that many of the adherents of the major religions lead lives that directly contradict their own scriptures isn't an attack on religion, it is an attack on hypocrisy.

Bad things are bad when atheists do them too. The difference is that there is no multi-million member organization of atheists, no leadership issuing dogma, no threats against atheists who interpret things differently... the way there is for the major religions.


And without that organization, those leaders, those creeds, that power, it becomes irrational to pretend that atheists have the ability to engage in venality on any scale remotely resembling that of the larger religious groups.



quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

Pat Robertson


DomKen when I see his name mentioned in posts I have NEVER read where anyone supported him...again on these boards.... have you? Now I am not talking about abortion... gay marriage etc... those or issues that are not his alone. In my opinion he is a fanatic and represents a very small portion of those of faith.

Butch

I'm not saying anyone here supports him. I'm saying I rarely hear a Christian denouncing him or his latest pronouncements. Also I do often hear atheists being bashed for ridiculing this gasbag.



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RE: Could an aetheist do this? - 6/1/2013 6:35:17 PM   
MrBlue76


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

I really respect your opinion but you have made the same mistake as others. I am not talking about the so called real world... I am only talking about these boards. I challenge you to take the time to go back even a few months in this room and read the posts on religion.

As I stated earlier I am not talking about the real issues on religion. I, as a person of faith, agree with most of the criticisms. What many don't seem to realize is religion is important to those of faith....second only to family and to many even that cannot be separated. So when in an argument someone calls their faith a fairy tale in a derogatory manner it is hurtful.

Here are a few examples in this thread alone:

about this very very specific way to be an asshole... I'd almost say that it takes a religious person to do this

Butch


Nope. You must have misunderstood what I wrote there. You should include what I wrote before that. Which was this:

quote:

I don't consider atheists morally superior or better. So I'm sure atheists can do a lot of outrageous and criminal things, just like anyone else.


I'm just saying that that kind of invasive behaviour about this debate, usually happens from the religious side. And that's simply true. So, I'm not saying that religious people are assholes, or bad, or mean, or invasive.

You are mixing all the time (and this is classic in this debate) the lack of respect to people with the lack of respect to your beliefs. And those are two very different things. One things is christians attacked, and other, christianity or it's symbols attacked. And of course people can attack Christian symbols. As they can attack the liberal ideology, or the Boston Celtics. And, yes, that includes satire, sometimes with good taste, sometimes with bad taste. That happens.



quote:

ORIGINAL: cordeliasub
And as far as symbols go....in MY country, that crucifix would last about 30 seconds in a public school classroom, which is as it should be.


quote:

(Wikipedia) After the September 11 attacks, public schools across the United States posted "In God We Trust" framed posters in their "libraries, cafeterias and classrooms." The American Family Association supplied several 11-by-14-inch posters to school systems and vowed to defend any legal challenges to the displaying of the posters.[25]


Apart from that, you don't think I was actually asking for a dollar because I was thirsty, do you?





_____________________________

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1.- That I'm having problems with the language, and translation
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Give me the benefit of doubt!

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RE: Could an aetheist do this? - 6/1/2013 6:40:49 PM   
TNDommeK


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: cordeliasub
And as far as symbols go....in MY country, that crucifix would last about 30 seconds in a public school classroom, which is as it should be.

Not sure what part of Alabama you're in but I'm willing to bet there are crucifixes in public school classrooms in DeKalb County.


In MS, prayer will be put in schools in June or July. I can't remember which.

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(in reply to DomKen)
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