Big brother is back...

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jlf1961 -> Big brother is back... (6/1/2013 11:08:53 PM)
quote: Biometric Database of All Adult Americans Hidden in Immigration Reform The immigration reform measure the Senate began debating yesterday would create a national biometric database of virtually every adult in the U.S., in what privacy groups fear could be the first step to a ubiquitous national identification system. Buried in the more than 800 pages of the bipartisan legislation (.pdf) is language mandating the creation of the innocuously-named “photo tool,” a massive federal database administered by the Department of Homeland Security and containing names, ages, Social Security numbers and photographs of everyone in the country with a driver’s license or other state-issued photo ID. Employers would be obliged to look up every new hire in the database to verify that they match their photo. This piece of the Border Security, Economic Opportunity, and Immigration Modernization Act is aimed at curbing employment of undocumented immigrants. But privacy advocates fear the inevitable mission creep, ending with the proof of self being required at polling places, to rent a house, buy a gun, open a bank account, acquire credit, board a plane or even attend a sporting event or log on the internet. Think of it as a government version of Foursquare, with Big Brother cataloging every check-in. Source Unfortunately, the article does not say who had this bright idea.

Powergamz1 -> RE: Big brother is back... (6/1/2013 11:35:54 PM)
quote: names, ages, Social Security numbers and photographs of everyone in the country with a driver’s license or other state-issued photo ID. That isn't biometric. Biometric markers are unique, and not easily altered.

RottenJohnny -> RE: Big brother is back... (6/2/2013 12:16:35 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: jlf1961 Unfortunately, the article does not say who had this bright idea. Please tell me that was sarcasm. Orwell must be laughing his ass off.

jlf1961 -> RE: Big brother is back... (6/2/2013 4:10:55 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: RottenJohnny quote: ORIGINAL: jlf1961 Unfortunately, the article does not say who had this bright idea. Please tell me that was sarcasm. Orwell must be laughing his ass off. Yes it was sarcasm.

DomKen -> RE: Big brother is back... (6/2/2013 4:35:10 AM)
FR Seems to be a bit of a problem here. Some people loudly want an end to illegal immigration and the only really viable way to stop it is to hit the employers that either knowingly or unknowingly hire illegals. For something like 30 years we've had the present system requiring the employer to check multiple forms of ID and the illegals simply got forged documents. So if you really do want to stop brown people from coming here you're going to have to go along with something like this. So which is anti immigrant people, do you dislike brown people so much you'd rather live in a police state or will you accept that poor people will seek a better life and our nation is improved by their contributions?

Politesub53 -> RE: Big brother is back... (6/2/2013 4:39:53 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Powergamz1 quote: names, ages, Social Security numbers and photographs of everyone in the country with a driver’s license or other state-issued photo ID. That isn't biometric. Biometric markers are unique, and not easily altered. Surely the details mentioned are already on file ? Just an aside but it always makes me laugh hearing people hear spout on about big brother, yet continue to post every aspect of their life on facebook etc.

Politesub53 -> RE: Big brother is back... (6/2/2013 4:41:18 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen FR Seems to be a bit of a problem here. Some people loudly want an end to illegal immigration and the only really viable way to stop it is to hit the employers that either knowingly or unknowingly hire illegals. For something like 30 years we've had the present system requiring the employer to check multiple forms of ID and the illegals simply got forged documents. So if you really do want to stop brown people from coming here you're going to have to go along with something like this. So which is anti immigrant people, do you dislike brown people so much you'd rather live in a police state or will you accept that poor people will seek a better life and our nation is improved by their contributions? Bit of a leap suggesting all immigrants are "brown people" Ken.

DesideriScuri -> RE: Big brother is back... (6/2/2013 4:43:32 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen FR Seems to be a bit of a problem here. Some people loudly want an end to illegal immigration and the only really viable way to stop it is to hit the employers that either knowingly or unknowingly hire illegals. For something like 30 years we've had the present system requiring the employer to check multiple forms of ID and the illegals simply got forged documents. So if you really do want to stop brown people from coming here you're going to have to go along with something like this. So which is anti immigrant people, do you dislike brown people so much you'd rather live in a police state or will you accept that poor people will seek a better life and our nation is improved by their contributions? You took the wrong leap, Ken. Wanting an end to illegal immigration is not the same thing as wanting to stop brown people from coming here. No one I would consider sane wants to end immigration. Everyone wants to end illegal immigration. All those who I have talked to about this stuff, also want to increase legal* immigration*. That is, make it easier and faster for those seeking a better life.

DomKen -> RE: Big brother is back... (6/2/2013 5:24:29 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen FR Seems to be a bit of a problem here. Some people loudly want an end to illegal immigration and the only really viable way to stop it is to hit the employers that either knowingly or unknowingly hire illegals. For something like 30 years we've had the present system requiring the employer to check multiple forms of ID and the illegals simply got forged documents. So if you really do want to stop brown people from coming here you're going to have to go along with something like this. So which is anti immigrant people, do you dislike brown people so much you'd rather live in a police state or will you accept that poor people will seek a better life and our nation is improved by their contributions? You took the wrong leap, Ken. Wanting an end to illegal immigration is not the same thing as wanting to stop brown people from coming here. No one I would consider sane wants to end immigration. Everyone wants to end illegal immigration. All those who I have talked to about this stuff, also want to increase legal* immigration*. That is, make it easier and faster for those seeking a better life. Then you speak to the wrong people. All the loudest voices on the issue want to functionally end all migration except from western Europe. The fact remains though that the only way to stop companies from hiring illegals and therefore creating an incentive to come here illegally is to implement a police state where you have to be able to positively establish your identity at all times.

DesideriScuri -> RE: Big brother is back... (6/2/2013 5:41:59 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen FR Seems to be a bit of a problem here. Some people loudly want an end to illegal immigration and the only really viable way to stop it is to hit the employers that either knowingly or unknowingly hire illegals. For something like 30 years we've had the present system requiring the employer to check multiple forms of ID and the illegals simply got forged documents. So if you really do want to stop brown people from coming here you're going to have to go along with something like this. So which is anti immigrant people, do you dislike brown people so much you'd rather live in a police state or will you accept that poor people will seek a better life and our nation is improved by their contributions? You took the wrong leap, Ken. Wanting an end to illegal immigration is not the same thing as wanting to stop brown people from coming here. No one I would consider sane wants to end immigration. Everyone wants to end illegal immigration. All those who I have talked to about this stuff, also want to increase legal* immigration*. That is, make it easier and faster for those seeking a better life. Then you speak to the wrong people. All the loudest voices on the issue want to functionally end all migration except from western Europe. The fact remains though that the only way to stop companies from hiring illegals and therefore creating an incentive to come here illegally is to implement a police state where you have to be able to positively establish your identity at all times. Perhaps it is you that is speaking to the wrong people, Ken. I speak primarily to conservatives (not to the exclusion of liberals) in my local area. Of all those people, none that I would consider sane wants to end all immigration, and, none wants to end the immigration of "brown people" (to use your terminology).

freedomdwarf1 -> RE: Big brother is back... (6/2/2013 5:45:37 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: jlf1961 quote: Biometric Database of All Adult Americans Hidden in Immigration Reform Employers would be obliged to look up every new hire in the database to verify that they match their photo. ...ending with the proof of self being required at polling places, to rent a house, buy a gun, open a bank account, acquire credit, board a plane or even attend a sporting event or log on the internet. Unfortunately, the article does not say who had this bright idea. Apart from logging on the 'net (in which you need to prove you are the bill-payer anyway), we already have that here. The only difference being that it isn't correlated into a single point of reference (yet).

vincentML -> RE: Big brother is back... (6/2/2013 6:58:08 AM)
Hey Jlf, this piece of misinformation was previously posted for discussion. I guess you missed it. The biometric system only refers to immigrants seeking work permits. NOT to US citizens in the aggregate. Much ado about nothing here.

jlf1961 -> RE: Big brother is back... (6/2/2013 7:04:28 AM)
There is an easier way to keep illegals from crossing the border. First, we make the first 3 miles on the US side a no man's land and seed it with land mines so thickly that you would have to levitate to avoid stepping on one. Second, we leave the bodies in the zone to give warning to anyone that wants to try and cross the border. Third we build a wall that makes the Berlin wall look like a picket fence. Fourth we make it a capital offense to be an illegal alien in the US. Fifth we create a manmade virus that will attack anyone that is not vaccinated against it, and we give the vaccine only to american citizens and those legally entering the country. And yes, I am being sarcastic.

tj444 -> RE: Big brother is back... (6/2/2013 7:47:50 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1 quote: ORIGINAL: jlf1961 quote: Biometric Database of All Adult Americans Hidden in Immigration Reform Employers would be obliged to look up every new hire in the database to verify that they match their photo. ...ending with the proof of self being required at polling places, to rent a house, buy a gun, open a bank account, acquire credit, board a plane or even attend a sporting event or log on the internet. Unfortunately, the article does not say who had this bright idea. Apart from logging on the 'net (in which you need to prove you are the bill-payer anyway), we already have that here. The only difference being that it isn't correlated into a single point of reference (yet). OMG, really? I am on the internet by logging on to an unsecured wifi signal and dont need to register with anyone.. and I can do that at the library too, or Starbucks, McDs, etc.. so you dont have that over there? hmmmm if that is the case, my,.. how.. uncivilized.. sorry, I cant imagine being so deprived.. (tj crosses the UK off her list of countries to visit..).. [:D]

freedomdwarf1 -> RE: Big brother is back... (6/2/2013 7:55:39 AM)
If you login to an open or public WiFi spot - that's fine. Anyone can do that. [:D] Not that I would ever dream of doing anything so reckless. But you can't get internet installed over here without proving that you pay the phone bill. If you can't prove you are the bill-payer, you have to get permission from the bill-payer to get it installed. The same with everything else on JLF's list - you have to prove who you are or that you are the legit occupier and rent payer of the living space, or both, before anything is allowed.

tj444 -> RE: Big brother is back... (6/2/2013 7:59:24 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML Hey Jlf, this piece of misinformation was previously posted for discussion. I guess you missed it. The biometric system only refers to immigrants seeking work permits. NOT to US citizens in the aggregate. Much ado about nothing here. well,.. its like bracket creep, aint it? they start at one spot in the corner and slowly, quietly it oozes along to eventually affect everyone.. they will slip stuff in as a requirement for or renewing a DL & given the choice of having a DL or not, nearly everyone will quietly sheepishly capitulate.. There is no doubt in my mind that they will eventually want dna from everyone also.. from anyone living or visiting the US.. And they will encourage other countries to follow suit.. so eventually it will be worldwide (except those countries no one want to go to anyway).. [8\|] eta- and here is proof it is starting.. classifying dna with fingerprinting.. they are eroding your Amendment rights (the whole Holder thing too, is pretty disgusting imo..) & trying their best to keep people in a tight little box.. But Chief Justice John Roberts, worried about the reach of similar laws, wondered during the oral argument why they couldn’t be applied to simple traffic stops. “There’s no reason you couldn’t, right?” he asked Winfree. “I gather it’s not that hard. Police officers who give Breathalyzer tests, they can also take a Q-tip or whatever and get a DNA sample, right?” "Alito, the justice who called the sampling issue “perhaps the most important criminal procedure case that this court has heard in decades,” appeared to lean toward classifying it with fingerprinting. “But you know,” he continued, “the Fourth Amendment sometimes stands in the way.”"http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/06/01/18631808-enormous-repercussions-as-court-weighs-dna-sampling-during-arrests?lite&ocid=msnhp&pos=4

tj444 -> RE: Big brother is back... (6/2/2013 8:06:49 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1 If you login to an open or public WiFi spot - that's fine. Anyone can do that. [:D] Not that I would ever dream of doing anything so reckless. But you can't get internet installed over here without proving that you pay the phone bill. If you can't prove you are the bill-payer, you have to get permission from the bill-payer to get it installed. The same with everything else on JLF's list - you have to prove who you are or that you are the legit occupier and rent payer of the living space, or both, before anything is allowed. that unfortunately helps to create an underclass of people without enough or the right ID, or bank accounts or homes.. it traps people so they can not even get govt help.. you cant get ID without an address and you cant get an address without ID, etc, etc.. its a great boon to check cashers tho & others that prey on those people that are extremely poor and considerably less fortunate..

freedomdwarf1 -> RE: Big brother is back... (6/2/2013 8:29:20 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tj444 quote: ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1 If you login to an open or public WiFi spot - that's fine. Anyone can do that. [:D] Not that I would ever dream of doing anything so reckless. But you can't get internet installed over here without proving that you pay the phone bill. If you can't prove you are the bill-payer, you have to get permission from the bill-payer to get it installed. The same with everything else on JLF's list - you have to prove who you are or that you are the legit occupier and rent payer of the living space, or both, before anything is allowed. that unfortunately helps to create an underclass of people without enough or the right ID, or bank accounts or homes.. it traps people so they can not even get govt help.. you cant get ID without an address and you cant get an address without ID, etc, etc.. its a great boon to check cashers tho & others that prey on those people that are extremely poor and considerably less fortunate.. Unfortunately, you're dead right. [:(] If I didn't have my driving license, it would have been impossible for me to get a tenancy because I had no other way of proving who I was. Like many people in the UK, I don't have any credit cards either. Again, if it wasn't for me having a driving license, I couldn't have opened a bank account. My brother has all sorts of problems because he is in the same boat as many other people. He doesn't drive and never held a license so has no other ID to help him get a passport for ID. His utilities (gas & electric) are paid for on a pre-payment meter so has no relevant bills to prove he lives where he does. He cannot open a bank account either (been refused at every turn) or get any line of credit. He has now been told that to get his benefits he has to do it online under the new rules they are bringing in. So he was faced with extortionate costs of using a dongle or go into town and use a library to do it. And there are sooo many in the UK in that same boat.

DomKen -> RE: Big brother is back... (6/2/2013 8:50:03 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen FR Seems to be a bit of a problem here. Some people loudly want an end to illegal immigration and the only really viable way to stop it is to hit the employers that either knowingly or unknowingly hire illegals. For something like 30 years we've had the present system requiring the employer to check multiple forms of ID and the illegals simply got forged documents. So if you really do want to stop brown people from coming here you're going to have to go along with something like this. So which is anti immigrant people, do you dislike brown people so much you'd rather live in a police state or will you accept that poor people will seek a better life and our nation is improved by their contributions? You took the wrong leap, Ken. Wanting an end to illegal immigration is not the same thing as wanting to stop brown people from coming here. No one I would consider sane wants to end immigration. Everyone wants to end illegal immigration. All those who I have talked to about this stuff, also want to increase legal* immigration*. That is, make it easier and faster for those seeking a better life. Then you speak to the wrong people. All the loudest voices on the issue want to functionally end all migration except from western Europe. The fact remains though that the only way to stop companies from hiring illegals and therefore creating an incentive to come here illegally is to implement a police state where you have to be able to positively establish your identity at all times. Perhaps it is you that is speaking to the wrong people, Ken. I speak primarily to conservatives (not to the exclusion of liberals) in my local area. Of all those people, none that I would consider sane wants to end all immigration, and, none wants to end the immigration of "brown people" (to use your terminology). Once again, the groups most vocal about illegal immigration are pretty much all committed to ending all immigration except from western Europe. http://www.fairus.org/ http://www.vdare.com/ As just two examples.

JeffBC -> RE: Big brother is back... (6/2/2013 8:55:32 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen So which is anti immigrant people, do you dislike brown people so much you'd rather live in a police state or will you accept that poor people will seek a better life and our nation is improved by their contributions? It is none of those things. IT is our government seeking additional ways to control us and waving around false flags to get us to accept it. And for those who like being controlled the thing is, they are correct. If, in fact, we give the government a massive database with every movement and every action of everyone and everything in America then by golly we could really deal with some of them bad apples. Of course, the ones who wouldn't ever be surveilled are the very ones we most need to be watching.

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