equal in the eyes of the law?

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egern -> equal in the eyes of the law? (6/3/2013 1:17:53 AM)
Relatives of the murdered families in Afganistan demands death sentence for the solider who killed their families. Relatives of murdered Afghans demand death for American sergeant "Staff Sergeant Robert Bales due to plead guilty to March 2012 massacre of 16 people, in return for life sentence " "Relatives of 16 Afghan civilians killed by a US soldier during a midnight rampage through two villages have expressed fury over a plea bargain that could see the perpetrator escape execution in return for confessing to the murders. They have called on US military prosecutors handling the trial of Staff Sergeant Robert Bales to imagine loosing their own loved ones to a gunman bent on murder and deaf to pleas of mercy." " "If someone entered your house and killed the children and old men and women of the family, what would your response be?"" "Some relatives of the dead pledged to seek vengeance if Bales is sentenced to life in prison rather than execution for the attacks, in which he killed nine children and seven adults and burned some of the bodies" "The US and Afghan governments handed out compensation for the killings, and some villagers consider the payments equivalent to blood money traditionally given to end hostilities between families after a killing. In line with that tradition, if a payment is accepted the family renounce the right to avenge the death." http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/02/afghanistan-murders-staff-sergeant-robert-bales Should the relatives have their demand accepted? Is it right or wrong for them to seek private vengeance, if the death sentence is not pronounced? What if this had happened in US, would it make a difference? What impact would a death sentence have in Afghanistan, and in the US, respectively? Is vengeance ok? Is vengeance the same as justice or punishment?

DomKen -> RE: equal in the eyes of the law? (6/3/2013 1:53:42 AM)
No it would not make a difference if this had happened in the US. A long time ago, the mid 1980's, I was in "A" school at Great Lakes when a young man originally from Pakistan, who had just flunked out of the school, went on a rampage with a gun and a knife in the school. He killed 1 and grievously wounded several others. It was clearly premeditated, weapons were not allowed in barracks and his room had been inspected less than a month before. He got life in Leavenworth. To say the bulk of the sailors on the base wanted him to die is an understatement.. But he plead guilty and got life just like this guy. http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1986-09-17/news/8603090528_1_navy-school-navy-records-base

RottenJohnny -> RE: equal in the eyes of the law? (6/3/2013 1:55:01 AM)
During the American Civil War, Jefferson Davis (the Confederate president) commuted every death sentence imposed on Confederate soldiers found guilty of desertion. He said that the worst use of a soldier was to execute him. That thought stays at the back of my mind when any soldier is found guilty of a crime. Nevertheless, I find myself teetering back and forth over whether or not the death sentence should be imposed here even though I find this crime particularly vile. I don't think it's wrong for the families to want to see the death penalty imposed. If I were in their shoes I'd demand the same thing. And even if they have accepted money for their dead relatives that doesn't save this soldier from us imposing the death sentence anyway. If it is imposed I don't think it will amount to much in either country long-term. Some Afghan families may feel they've gotten their justice and some may even dance in the streets but I think any grand elation would fade quickly. If it's not imposed then those families who have accepted money (assuming this is indeed their custom) have no right to vengeance. IMO, the concept of vengeance is not an acceptable form of justice in this day and age. However, I will admit that there have been cases where it seems the only form of justice that could be found was through vengeance.

egern -> RE: equal in the eyes of the law? (6/6/2013 7:32:34 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen No it would not make a difference if this had happened in the US. A long time ago, the mid 1980's, I was in "A" school at Great Lakes when a young man originally from Pakistan, who had just flunked out of the school, went on a rampage with a gun and a knife in the school. He killed 1 and grievously wounded several others. It was clearly premeditated, weapons were not allowed in barracks and his room had been inspected less than a month before. He got life in Leavenworth. To say the bulk of the sailors on the base wanted him to die is an understatement.. But he plead guilty and got life just like this guy. http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1986-09-17/news/8603090528_1_navy-school-navy-records-base Ok, I see, yes. However, this person is a soldier - is it not more important to keep people who are armed under stricter discipline? Soldier, police and so on?

egern -> RE: equal in the eyes of the law? (6/6/2013 7:39:37 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: RottenJohnny During the American Civil War, Jefferson Davis (the Confederate president) commuted every death sentence imposed on Confederate soldiers found guilty of desertion. He said that the worst use of a soldier was to execute him. That thought stays at the back of my mind when any soldier is found guilty of a crime. Nevertheless, I find myself teetering back and forth over whether or not the death sentence should be imposed here even though I find this crime particularly vile. Hm, desertion is something else, though, I think.. But yes, this crime is vile, and I wonder what vile circumstances promted that behaviour. quote: I don't think it's wrong for the families to want to see the death penalty imposed. If I were in their shoes I'd demand the same thing. And even if they have accepted money for their dead relatives that doesn't save this soldier from us imposing the death sentence anyway. ok quote: If it is imposed I don't think it will amount to much in either country long-term. Some Afghan families may feel they've gotten their justice and some may even dance in the streets but I think any grand elation would fade quickly. If it's not imposed then those families who have accepted money (assuming this is indeed their custom) have no right to vengeance. IMO, the concept of vengeance is not an acceptable form of justice in this day and age. However, I will admit that there have been cases where it seems the only form of justice that could be found was through vengeance. I was thinking in terms of general anger over civilian killings it might send a signal. I think it is increasingly important to distinguish between the enemy and civilians, now that wars are no longer army against army, but keep getting more and more muddled in that sense.

Powergamz1 -> RE: equal in the eyes of the law? (6/6/2013 7:53:35 AM)
Stricter discipline meaning greater vengeance? Why? quote: ORIGINAL: egern quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen No it would not make a difference if this had happened in the US. A long time ago, the mid 1980's, I was in "A" school at Great Lakes when a young man originally from Pakistan, who had just flunked out of the school, went on a rampage with a gun and a knife in the school. He killed 1 and grievously wounded several others. It was clearly premeditated, weapons were not allowed in barracks and his room had been inspected less than a month before. He got life in Leavenworth. To say the bulk of the sailors on the base wanted him to die is an understatement.. But he plead guilty and got life just like this guy. http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1986-09-17/news/8603090528_1_navy-school-navy-records-base Ok, I see, yes. However, this person is a soldier - is it not more important to keep people who are armed under stricter discipline? Soldier, police and so on?

DomKen -> RE: equal in the eyes of the law? (6/6/2013 7:54:01 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: egern quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen No it would not make a difference if this had happened in the US. A long time ago, the mid 1980's, I was in "A" school at Great Lakes when a young man originally from Pakistan, who had just flunked out of the school, went on a rampage with a gun and a knife in the school. He killed 1 and grievously wounded several others. It was clearly premeditated, weapons were not allowed in barracks and his room had been inspected less than a month before. He got life in Leavenworth. To say the bulk of the sailors on the base wanted him to die is an understatement.. But he plead guilty and got life just like this guy. http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1986-09-17/news/8603090528_1_navy-school-navy-records-base Ok, I see, yes. However, this person is a soldier - is it not more important to keep people who are armed under stricter discipline? Soldier, police and so on? The man in my story was a US Serviceman. Great Lakes is a US Navy training base.

vincentML -> RE: equal in the eyes of the law? (6/6/2013 9:01:53 AM)
quote: Should the relatives have their demand accepted? Is it right or wrong for them to seek private vengeance, if the death sentence is not pronounced? What if this had happened in US, would it make a difference? What impact would a death sentence have in Afghanistan, and in the US, respectively? Is vengeance ok? Is vengeance the same as justice or punishment? No question that Bales committed an atrocity . . several atrocities. However, there is more to the story than reported here. Bales defense is that he was juiced on steroids. It is further reported that steroid juicing of American troops in Afghanistan is common. THAT is the real atrocity left undiscussed. If Bales was a 'juice monster' than there is an issue of diminished capacity and retribution is not warrented.

DaddySatyr -> RE: equal in the eyes of the law? (6/6/2013 9:49:01 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML No question that Bales committed an atrocity . . several atrocities. However, there is more to the story than reported here. Bales defense is that he was juiced on steroids. It is further reported that steroid juicing of American troops in Afghanistan is common. THAT is the real atrocity left undiscussed. If Bales was a 'juice monster' than there is an issue of diminished capacity and retribution is not warrented. Honest question: Are they juicing themselves or are they being juiced by someone? Assuming the former, I find it no different than a drunk driver (I spoke about this on a drug legalization thread, somewhere). If Bales made a choice to juice up, I have no sympathy for him. Now, on to the meat of the matter: Saying this is awful is an understatement. I wish there was some inkling that this was a colateral damage in a sanctioned action situation but, it appears that that's not even close to possible. Bales went on a rampage and killed women and children in cold blood. Nothing that happened here was "war related". As such, he should be treated as a civillian, regarding this matter. Americans that are travelling are subject to the laws of the country they're in. As much as it pains me to see a soldier go down this road, he wasn't acting as a soldier. He does not enjoy the protection of "I was following orders". He should be executed. All of this is null and void if it turns out someone else juiced him up without his knowledge. Peace and comfort, Michael

JeffBC -> RE: equal in the eyes of the law? (6/6/2013 9:49:06 AM)
I do not believe that you can try military people under civilian justice codes which is exactly why military people should only be used for actual, real, honest-to-god wars. Nor would I ever consider turning over a US military person to foreign justice unless it was the Hague. Yes, it is right for them to seek private vengeance. What the hell else are they supposed to do? From their standpoint a horrible wrong has been done... from my standpoint too.

OrionTheWolf -> RE: equal in the eyes of the law? (6/6/2013 11:04:54 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: egern Ok, I see, yes. However, this person is a soldier - is it not more important to keep people who are armed under stricter discipline? Soldier, police and so on? Greater punishment does not equal stricter discipline. If you want stricter discipline it begins long before the possibility of any type of crime or breaking of the rules. Military people should not be put in place of policing the population of any country. They are trained to fight, kill and win battles/wars. This is not an excuse for this person, but incidents like this keep happening yet there is no change in how we handle it, before killings happen.

vincentML -> RE: equal in the eyes of the law? (6/6/2013 11:19:45 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML No question that Bales committed an atrocity . . several atrocities. However, there is more to the story than reported here. Bales defense is that he was juiced on steroids. It is further reported that steroid juicing of American troops in Afghanistan is common. THAT is the real atrocity left undiscussed. If Bales was a 'juice monster' than there is an issue of diminished capacity and retribution is not warrented. Honest question: Are they juicing themselves or are they being juiced by someone? Assuming the former, I find it no different than a drunk driver (I spoke about this on a drug legalization thread, somewhere). If Bales made a choice to juice up, I have no sympathy for him. Now, on to the meat of the matter: Saying this is awful is an understatement. I wish there was some inkling that this was a colateral damage in a sanctioned action situation but, it appears that that's not even close to possible. Bales went on a rampage and killed women and children in cold blood. Nothing that happened here was "war related". As such, he should be treated as a civillian, regarding this matter. Americans that are travelling are subject to the laws of the country they're in. As much as it pains me to see a soldier go down this road, he wasn't acting as a soldier. He does not enjoy the protection of "I was following orders". He should be executed. All of this is null and void if it turns out someone else juiced him up without his knowledge. Peace and comfort, Michael From the article I read, Michael, there is considerable in country peer pressure and situational pressure to juice. Furthermore, Bales had a history of mental distress before he was sent on this second (?) tour. To say that Bales went on a rampage (i agree he did) begs the question of what caused that rampage. He had no prior history of violence I don't think. Promoted to monster in the field if you get my drift.

DaddySatyr -> RE: equal in the eyes of the law? (6/6/2013 11:26:27 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML From the article I read, Michael, there is considerable in country peer pressure and situational pressure to juice. Furthermore, Bales had a history of mental distress before he was sent on this second (?) tour. To say that Bales went on a rampage (i agree he did) begs the question of what caused that rampage. He had no prior history of violence I don't think. Promoted to monster in the field if you get my drift. I get your drift and I think it's a tragedy but, I still have to side with: we have been bombarded with the dangers of steroids for a long time and this soldier chose to go against the rules and juice. I don't think "peer pressure" should ever be an excuse for a criminal act. Let's face it; ingesting the steroids is a criminal act (Damaging Government Property). So, what caused his rampage was a predicate criminal act. Like I hinted at, earlier; I don't see this as being any different from me, having four drinks and deciding it's a good time to go for a drive. I know the dangers involved. I roll the dice. I'm responsible for any lost lives or damage done as a result. Peace and comfort, Michael

Owner59 -> RE: equal in the eyes of the law? (6/6/2013 11:36:05 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML quote: Should the relatives have their demand accepted? Is it right or wrong for them to seek private vengeance, if the death sentence is not pronounced? What if this had happened in US, would it make a difference? What impact would a death sentence have in Afghanistan, and in the US, respectively? Is vengeance ok? Is vengeance the same as justice or punishment? No question that Bales committed an atrocity . . several atrocities. However, there is more to the story than reported here. Bales defense is that he was juiced on steroids. It is further reported that steroid juicing of American troops in Afghanistan is common. THAT is the real atrocity left undiscussed. If Bales was a 'juice monster' than there is an issue of diminished capacity and retribution is not warrented. I also read that he had gotten some rot-gut alcohol and snorted a crushed up valium before going out. There are a lot of mitigating circumstances in this case.....as well as the long list of victims. This unfortunately is going to happen when an army invades another country. It`s not a matter of if but when and how much. This is also one of the main reasons to make invasion the very very very LAST thing to do, when it comes to our security and what that costs us and our "hosts".

RottenJohnny -> RE: equal in the eyes of the law? (6/6/2013 11:58:46 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: egern quote: ORIGINAL: RottenJohnny During the American Civil War, Jefferson Davis (the Confederate president) commuted every death sentence imposed on Confederate soldiers found guilty of desertion. He said that the worst use of a soldier was to execute him. That thought stays at the back of my mind when any soldier is found guilty of a crime. Nevertheless, I find myself teetering back and forth over whether or not the death sentence should be imposed here even though I find this crime particularly vile. Hm, desertion is something else, though, I think.. But yes, this crime is vile, and I wonder what vile circumstances promted that behaviour. Certainly desertion is something else. What I was trying to convey was the idea that given the nature of their job and the unpredictable circumstances they can find themselves in, it's always difficult for me to judge a soldier as worthy of execution even in this kind of case.

vincentML -> RE: equal in the eyes of the law? (6/6/2013 1:55:54 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Owner59 quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML quote: Should the relatives have their demand accepted? Is it right or wrong for them to seek private vengeance, if the death sentence is not pronounced? What if this had happened in US, would it make a difference? What impact would a death sentence have in Afghanistan, and in the US, respectively? Is vengeance ok? Is vengeance the same as justice or punishment? No question that Bales committed an atrocity . . several atrocities. However, there is more to the story than reported here. Bales defense is that he was juiced on steroids. It is further reported that steroid juicing of American troops in Afghanistan is common. THAT is the real atrocity left undiscussed. If Bales was a 'juice monster' than there is an issue of diminished capacity and retribution is not warrented. I also read that he had gotten some rot-gut alcohol and snorted a crushed up valium before going out. There are a lot of mitigating circumstances in this case.....as well as the long list of victims. This unfortunately is going to happen when an army invades another country. It`s not a matter of if but when and how much. This is also one of the main reasons to make invasion the very very very LAST thing to do, when it comes to our security and what that costs us and our "hosts". Yup. Could not agree more. We should've been the hell outta there after OBL was killed if not before.

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